Opinion: Jordan Peterson has always been a crank

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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,001
9,877
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JP helped at least one person here: https://publicsquaremag.org/faith/tributes/how-jordan-peterson-made-me-a-better-mother/

Again. Not saying he is good or bad. It's hard to form a definite opinion on him.

One could say in a sense that he's the excuse that some people are looking for to make a positive change in their lives.

Yeah, one anecdotal account of one person _saying_ his advice helped. That's a pretty low-bar.

Anyway I'm talking about the long-term, historical, record of the entire profession. All those people given lobotomies for example, or William Sargeant and his fixation on putting people into insulin comas, that mate of Freud (Charcot, was it?) who kept performing weird unnecessary operations on people's noses.

When you look at the history of the profession it's not an impressive track record (certainly not when compared to that of a proper science, like physics, or even of actual medicine - which also isn't as great as it's cracked up to be, but still a better record of achievement than the head-shrinkers).

Did all those decades of psychoanalysis help Woody Allen become a better person, for example?
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,549
6,706
126
Lol this guy:

Why would you pick a well known freakish nutcase and internet baboon with the moral standards of a psychopath whose stick it to climb the radical lefts status hierarchy by inventing vicious attacks on a myriad of true scholars of genuine repute? What a fucking joke. I would wager you never even read your own link because quoting what is such obvious garbage after reading it would be such a donkey revealing move. You didn’t read it did you?
 

dlerious

Platinum Member
Mar 4, 2004
2,083
884
136
Did he name his daughter after Gorbachev? Has anyone checked to see if the Russian doctors implanted one of RFK's worms in his brain (or was it one of Musks chips)?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,549
6,706
126
Peterson has claimed to be a neuroscientist before, saying, "As a neuroscientist...." Just want to be clear that he is not and he never worked as a neuroscientist, his self-aggrandizement notwithstanding. He probably knows some things about neuroscience. It's all unrelated to whether he is an ethical person.
I was not implying that an interest in neuroscience or a degree in it makes a person ethical. I said that anybody in the field of psychology seeking to understand the source of ethical behavior, why one person is more ethical, say than another, would be a person who would automatically gravitate toward the acquisition of an understanding of that field. So that does not mean he is moral, but it suggests his delving into that subject would be natural for a person with morality interests.
Alright.
No, I was hoping to confirm whether I, and I suppose all other liberals, will have to contend with this broad brush forever, or if I'd ever get the benefit of the doubt and have my arguments taken at face value. Like if I lay out argument X and you reply, "As a liberal you're saying that because you feel required to defend the herd groupthink," now instead of just having my argument evaluated on its merits I have to somehow argue that I'm not unconsciously responding in alignment with this inherent universal bias. So it goes I guess.
Think of it like this. Here I (you) was living my life full of all kinds of opinions I had never thought about since they were obviously right or I wouldn't have believed them. They are the same beliefs of other people with sound reasoning and here comes the gad fly who says wait a darn minute here, how do you know all this stuff I have no idea about. Isn't he aware that he doesn't know anything just like me? Doesn't he know the absolute danger he puts himself in if he actually delusional. Imagine the piles of garbage he can conjure up as real to live his life in. I better tell him his condition so he can do something about it if he can see what I am saying. I know it's not going to be easy for him. The price I had to pay to realize I know nothing was all the ego pride and all safety of certainty I used to have when I was that way.

Should I even try? What kind of stupid question is that, Moonbeam. What do I have to lose, I already lost everything. Don't be a chicken shit, give the guy a heads up. Could I possibly make him any worse off than he already is? But what if I hurt his feelings and he feels I don't value him or respect his pile of cabbage? Meh! all us self haters feel that way. You can't tell us anything we won't turn into an insult. We believe we know what those are because we don't see we don't know anything of the kind. How did anybody come up with a saying like casting pearls before swine if people protect themselves from the truth with outrage. Haven't I said we are created in God's image or we created Him in ours. What more do you want? Shall I complement you on your beautiful eyes.

I was headed for a life in a state of abject depression and hopelessness and some Zen Master hit me in the back of the head with a strawberry. That all vanished the moment I tasted it. I vow to save all sentient beings but its fine too if you are not interested.

You are stuck with everything you believe, but nothing says you have to be a believer.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,549
6,706
126
Lol, while its fun to joke around, JP has been promoting pseudoscience and seemingly outright lying for a long time. His influence should not be underestimated, nor are his viewpoints on society and our roles in it very appealing to those who want to move forward allowing biological sex and gender to deviate from legacy norms.
Holy crap, I get it now. He's a threat to liberal orthodoxy. But wait a minute now, wouldn't you be safe if you did your own thinking. God only knows where that could lead.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,660
20,224
146
Holy crap, I get it now. He's a threat to liberal orthodoxy. But wait a minute now, wouldn't you be safe if you did your own thinking. God only knows where that could lead.

You get it…now? Thats weird, cuz youve been going on and on about how you get it and nobody else does.

A threat to liberal orthodoxy. Yep, thats it moonie. Its not the pseudoscience and lies, its the threat to liberals herd mentality group think thats the problem…the insight you have is simply astonishing
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,660
20,224
146
Why would you pick a well known freakish nutcase and internet baboon with the moral standards of a psychopath whose stick it to climb the radical lefts status hierarchy by inventing vicious attacks on a myriad of true scholars of genuine repute? What a fucking joke. I would wager you never even read your own link because quoting what is such obvious garbage after reading it would be such a donkey revealing move. You didn’t read it did you?

Maybe youre just not listening.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
20,508
15,309
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Why would you pick a well known freakish nutcase and internet baboon with the moral standards of a psychopath whose stick it to climb the radical lefts status hierarchy by inventing vicious attacks on a myriad of true scholars of genuine repute? What a fucking joke. I would wager you never even read your own link because quoting what is such obvious garbage after reading it would be such a donkey revealing move. You didn’t read it did you?

I think you need to take some time out to get to the bottom of why you get *so fucking angry* when people don't like Jordan Peterson.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,549
6,706
126
Yeah, one anecdotal account of one person _saying_ his advice helped. That's a pretty low-bar.

Anyway I'm talking about the long-term, historical, record of the entire profession. All those people given lobotomies for example, or William Sargeant and his fixation on putting people into insulin comas, that mate of Freud (Charcot, was it?) who kept performing weird unnecessary operations on people's noses.

When you look at the history of the profession it's not an impressive track record (certainly not when compared to that of a proper science, like physics, or even of actual medicine - which also isn't as great as it's cracked up to be, but still a better record of achievement than the head-shrinkers).

Did all those decades of psychoanalysis help Woody Allen become a better person, for example?
Maybe youre just not listening.
I asked you first. I bet you didn't even listen to your own link. I can't believe you listened and agreed with such horse shit. You'd have to be one in a million, certainly not remotely orthodox at all.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,660
20,224
146
I asked you first. I bet you didn't even listen to your own link. I can't believe you listened and agreed with such horse shit. You'd have to be one in a million, certainly not remotely orthodox at all.

Bet you didnt read any of it or listen to the link. Categorized it as horseshit, moved on.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,549
6,706
126
I think you need to take some time out to get to the bottom of why you get *so fucking angry* when people don't like Jordan Peterson.
You have quite a sense of humor. Have you any idea how dangerous ch33zw1z is spreading such unbelievably slander simply because he's terrified of seeing himself for what he is? He needs to be silenced and I'm up to the task.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,660
20,224
146
You have quite a sense of humor. Have you any idea how dangerous ch33zw1z is spreading such unbelievably slander simply because he's terrified of seeing himself for what he is? He needs to be silenced and I'm up to the task.

You didnt “@“ me correctly, if thats what you intended.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
20,508
15,309
136
You have quite a sense of humor.

I wasn't joking, and that was a lame effort at deflection. This isn't the first time that you're acting like an criticism of JP is a criticism of you personally.

Have you any idea how dangerous ch33zw1z is spreading such unbelievably slander simply because he's terrified of seeing himself for what he is? He needs to be silenced and I'm up to the task.

I should also point out that this is quite a disturbing comment you just made.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,549
6,706
126
Yeah, one anecdotal account of one person _saying_ his advice helped. That's a pretty low-bar.

Anyway I'm talking about the long-term, historical, record of the entire profession. All those people given lobotomies for example, or William Sargeant and his fixation on putting people into insulin comas, that mate of Freud (Charcot, was it?) who kept performing weird unnecessary operations on people's noses.

When you look at the history of the profession it's not an impressive track record (certainly not when compared to that of a proper science, like physics, or even of actual medicine - which also isn't as great as it's cracked up to be, but still a better record of achievement than the head-shrinkers).

Did all those decades of psychoanalysis help Woody Allen become a better person, for example?
You quite good at analyzing things generally, except when it comes to seeing yourself. You are very cerebral in the sense that you intellectualize your feelings away and for the same reason intellectualize psychotherapy away. You see it as a joke because you don't need to undergo it to understand the threat it poses. You already know that it could not help you as you are quite content with how sick you are.

With that, my personal opinions observing how you roll, let me tell you what I think explains what you see. People don't go into psychotherapy to get well, they go into it to become better at being sick. You are pleased enough with yourself not to need that but the down side is that your contempt for the practice in not so much that it fails so often. For you that's quite a relief. The real rub for you is that the subject matter is terrifying, all that crap about knowing what you feel. No thanks to that right. You are just fine.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,549
6,706
126
I wasn't joking, and that was a lame effort at deflection. This isn't the first time that you're acting like an criticism of JP is a criticism of you personally.



I should also point out that this is quite a disturbing comment you just made.
Look, I said you have a sense of humor because you don't seem to see that those posts you are objecting to are me playing the role of a know it, opinionated idiot. I decided to give ch33zw1z a taste of his own medicine and a look at how he acts. Naturally is just what I see, my opinion as it were.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,549
6,706
126
I couldn't tell if it was serious or tongue-in-cheek. But seeing how emotionally attached to JP @Moonbeam is, it's not positive. I've never called for the silencing of JP or MB.
Of course not. You just want the world to share your terror that's he will corrupt the youth. The hemlock is in your words. We have to protect the orthodox from the heretics. But I still bet you didn't read your own link. What do you say?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,660
20,224
146
Of course not. You just want the world to share your terror that's he will corrupt the youth. The hemlock is in your words. We have to protect the orthodox from the heretics. But I still bet you didn't read your own link. What do you say?

Oh, are you seriously asking if I read the link? Yep. Did you?

This orthodox and heretic thing is your labels. Nice little box you put things in to help rationalize why you would adamantly support a person like JP.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,549
6,706
126
Oh, are you seriously asking if I read the link? Yep. Did you?

This orthodox and heretic thing is your labels. Nice little box you put things in to help rationalize why you would adamantly support a person like JP.
Peer reviewed science remember? You should understand that you things about Peterson that you tie to things he has in your opinion said. I don’t see those those thinks see they are only claims based on your inability to follow his real positions. All I am saying is that you don’t know what you are talking about because you provide no logical basis for it and I can follow Peterson who makes rational arguments.

I am telling you what I see you doing. Peterson is not here. Just because I can follow the logic Peterson builds his case on does not bean I agree with him. He is not here to defend his positions against mine.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
39,660
20,224
146
Peer reviewed science remember? You should understand that you things about Peterson that you tie to things he has in your opinion said. I don’t see those those thinks see they are only claims based on your inability to follow his real positions. All I am saying is that you don’t know what you are talking about because you provide no logical basis for it and I can follow Peterson who makes rational arguments.

I am telling you what I see you doing. Peterson is not here. Just because I can follow the logic Peterson builds his case on does not bean I agree with him. He is not here to defend his positions against mine.

Things he has said…on recordings, on social media. Its not my opinion, im simply someone reviewing things he had actually said and offering my opinion.

Im not sure where you drop off here, but nobody is making things up for JP. He says a LOT of stuff. Like someone else i know ;)

This is the peer review of words.

When it comes to JP making statements about topics that involve science, this changes the topic to something else, its becomes more and the critique becomes more.

Does JP spreading pseudoscience not bother you?

Does JP claiming to hold credentials that he doesnt hold not bother you?
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,001
9,877
136
You quite good at analyzing things generally, except when it comes to seeing yourself. You are very cerebral in the sense that you intellectualize your feelings away and for the same reason intellectualize psychotherapy away. You see it as a joke because you don't need to undergo it to understand the threat it poses. You already know that it could not help you as you are quite content with how sick you are.

With that, my personal opinions observing how you roll, let me tell you what I think explains what you see. People don't go into psychotherapy to get well, they go into it to become better at being sick. You are pleased enough with yourself not to need that but the down side is that your contempt for the practice in not so much that it fails so often. For you that's quite a relief. The real rub for you is that the subject matter is terrifying, all that crap about knowing what you feel. No thanks to that right. You are just fine.

None of that has anything to do with the issue.

People often go into psychotherapy because they lack sufficient power to do anything to actually change the world, which is often the real source of the problem.

The underlying premise of the mental health industry is both idealist and Panglossian - it's the belief that the world is the most perfect of all possible worlds and any suffering must therefore be caused by the wrong ideas in the minds of the sufferers.

Under no circumstances can the source of a problem ever be considered to lie outside the sufferer's mind, in the real material world - because that might involve an imperative to change the external world, the world that gives the mental health professional their comfortable bourgie lifestyle, and which they find perfectly fine as it is, thanks.

That often involves a failure to challenge things like class inequality, racism or patriarchy, but in my case, for example, it was simply because I couldn't get an underfunded NHS to do the necessary test to diagnose the actual problem, or the overconfident doctors to actually think about the problem.

Just look at the pure God-of-the-Gaps reasoning implicit in this official position of the Royal College of Psychiatrists on "medically unexplained symptoms"


It clearly takes as an unexamined underlying assumption the belief that medical knowledge is complete and doctors omniscient. Ergo anything they can't diagnose must therefore be due to the sufferer's "wrong thoughts".

Then contrast that with the actual medical literature on, in particular, neurological and auto-immune conditions (both of which I ultimately turned out to have, when I _finally_ got them to do the correct test).

When you look into it you find conditions like multiple sclerosis or hydrocephalus are very poorly understood and frequently mis- or undiagnosed. Which is hard to reconcile with the complete lack of recognition of such limitations in medical knowledge by the psychiatrists.
(Who I suspect are largely engaging in empire building and securing new revenue-streams, when they come out with stuff like this).


Also, you keep banging on about "liberal orthodoxy", when in fact liberalism is the philosophy of the professional-managerial technocrat class - such as the mental health profession. I'm not, and never have been, a liberal.