One thing I never understood about OT: That everyone thinks engineering degrees are > *. WARNING: LONG POST W/ RANTING

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Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,075
11
81
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Safeway
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Veramocor
I think his argument in summary is that the United States in particular values 9salary wise) professions that may be easier than engineering and don't really produce anything like Finance or business.

What an ignorant thing to say. It's entrepreneurs and financiers that allow ideas to go from paper/concept to shelf. They are the true talent and are very rare. You engineers are a dime a dozen.

Disagree. True talent in any field is very rare. You think that all finance or business majors become entrepreneurs and financiers? What about the "dime a dozen" auditors and accountants and middle-management?

Sure, investment is required for initial development in any field, but look at Intel. You have engineers driving the research and development. Financiers are not required when you have brilliant engineers taking "ideas ... from paper/concept to shelf."

What part of "entrepreneurs and financiers" don't you understand? But of course a leech lawyer like you who brings net negative value to society wouldn't understand.

Financiers are absolutely required to take ideas to market. I don't give a shit if it's your grandmother giving you a $50k loan or a VC buying preferred stock, no financier = no product.

Ah, leech lawyer mindset, I've met people like you -- they were all unsuccessful, ignorant, uneducated, uncouth, and probably mildly retarded. I cannot say that you are the same, though, as I have not met you.
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,075
11
81
Originally posted by: eLiu
Intelligence is the critical part ...

Of course it is the critical part. It just so happens that more intelligent people pick engineering majors. Yes, there are intelligent people in other majors, but you don't see too many ditz sorority girls in engineering. They are in those other majors.
 

Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,775
3
81
Originally posted by: brxndxn
EE's... so sad..

I did EE for 3 years.. got in a car accident.. had to take muscle relaxers.. ended up with a political science degree.. barely..

Guess what?

I'm in a position to hire EE's now - 3 years out of college.

I still think EE is god.. but only for the right people with EE. Most EE's I work with are NOT leaders. I can see your frustration.. but all I can say is 'quit fucking conforming.' Think outside the box.. don't be afraid to piss off your superiors.. If you are told to do something to solve a problem in a stupid time-consuming manner, solve it the fast way first.. and answer questions later. If you get fired.. who gives a shit? You have an EE.. you can get hired anywhere... Are you sick of your pay? Fucking earn more pay elsewhere.. How easily can you be replaced? How about you maximize the impossibility of replacement?

I don't know of any other degree (and I had 4 different majors in college) that teaches you to completely 'conform' more than an EE..

I have a natural 'fit' with IT.. Right now, I am so glad I did not finish that EE degree.. I cannot imagine a better place for me right now in my career..

The sad thing is that I sometimes think I'll go back and finish my EE.. to get that PE..

In other words.. I have total respect for those that actually earned the degree.. and I have total disdain for how that degree changes a person..

:)
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,075
11
81
Oh, and JS80, who do you think drafts the contracts that those VCs sign? Who handles the VCs massive estate? Who licenses the engineers product?

No attorney, no contractual agreements.
 

TecHNooB

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
7,458
1
76
If you're trying to tell me I should have paid for less challenging courses, fuck that! I'm just paying for classes worth my while; I'll decide what I really want to do later..

This thread is depressing.. half the posters are engineers, the other half are people who pat themselves on the back everyday for outsmarting engineers.. goddamnit.
 

Bignate603

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
13,897
1
0
Originally posted by: Safeway

Why did I not pursue an engineering position? Because I hated the course work and I hated the prospect of doing the shit for a meager living. I will be able to make 5 to 10 times the average engineering salary, and that is without my own firm.

Somehow I doubt that. The average pay for engineers is in the $75k range across all disciplines. That means you're saying you'll be making $375,000 to $750,000 doing intellectual property. None of the patent lawyers I've met ever struck me as incredibly wealthy.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Safeway
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Safeway
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Veramocor
I think his argument in summary is that the United States in particular values 9salary wise) professions that may be easier than engineering and don't really produce anything like Finance or business.

What an ignorant thing to say. It's entrepreneurs and financiers that allow ideas to go from paper/concept to shelf. They are the true talent and are very rare. You engineers are a dime a dozen.

Disagree. True talent in any field is very rare. You think that all finance or business majors become entrepreneurs and financiers? What about the "dime a dozen" auditors and accountants and middle-management?

Sure, investment is required for initial development in any field, but look at Intel. You have engineers driving the research and development. Financiers are not required when you have brilliant engineers taking "ideas ... from paper/concept to shelf."

What part of "entrepreneurs and financiers" don't you understand? But of course a leech lawyer like you who brings net negative value to society wouldn't understand.

Financiers are absolutely required to take ideas to market. I don't give a shit if it's your grandmother giving you a $50k loan or a VC buying preferred stock, no financier = no product.

Ah, leech lawyer mindset, I've met people like you -- they were all unsuccessful, ignorant, uneducated, uncouth, and probably mildly retarded. I cannot say that you are the same, though, as I have not met you.

I'm a Republican, so you will probably think I'm retarded, like the rest of this board.
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,075
11
81
Originally posted by: Bignate603
Originally posted by: Safeway

Why did I not pursue an engineering position? Because I hated the course work and I hated the prospect of doing the shit for a meager living. I will be able to make 5 to 10 times the average engineering salary, and that is without my own firm.

Somehow I doubt that. The average pay for engineers is in the $75k range across all disciplines. That means you're saying you'll be making $375,000 to $750,000 doing intellectual property. None of the patent lawyers I've met ever struck me as incredibly wealthy.

Yes. Not initially and not without hard work and dedication, but in 10 to 15 years, maybe 20 years at the high end. Switch firms for a partner stake and hit 7-figures. As for the patent attorneys you have met -- we tend to be sensible.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Safeway
Oh, and JS80, who do you think drafts the contracts that those VCs sign? Who handles the VCs massive estate? Who licenses the engineers product?

No attorney, no contractual agreements.

Yes, I've read 100 page term sheets, M&A agreements, etc. If it weren't for shyster lawyers who try to find every loophole to cheat people out of what should be a simple transaction it would be 1 page long.
 

Safeway

Lifer
Jun 22, 2004
12,075
11
81
Originally posted by: JS80
Republican.

Doesn't matter. I'm moderate. Fuck social programs.

Originally posted by: JS80
Shyster lawyers.

I dislike them, too. Makes my job harder. I try to protect peoples' intellectual property, and they try to invalidate my client's claim to the patent by skirting the law or generalizing the patent and then suggesting infringement.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
After understanding my pain threshold to stuff knowledge in my head in subjects which I had no care in the world about (telecommunications, device physics).... I kinda wish I put that energy into being a doctor since I would get paid more and probably deal with the same amount of pain. :p
 

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,986
1,388
126
Ahh, this thread has become my job/career > your job/career...
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Safeway
Originally posted by: JS80
Republican.

Doesn't matter. I'm moderate. Fuck social programs.

Originally posted by: JS80
Shyster lawyers.

I dislike them, too. Makes my job harder. I try to protect peoples' intellectual property, and they try to invalidate my client's claim to the patent by skirting the law or generalizing the patent and then suggesting infringement.

Stop trying to be likable, dammit! I'm trying to bash you!
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Safeway
Originally posted by: JS80
Republican.

Doesn't matter. I'm moderate. Fuck social programs.

Originally posted by: JS80
Shyster lawyers.

I dislike them, too. Makes my job harder. I try to protect peoples' intellectual property, and they try to invalidate my client's claim to the patent by skirting the law or generalizing the patent and then suggesting infringement.

Stop trying to be likable, dammit! I'm trying to bash you!

JS80!

...Have you been working out?
 

mcmilljb

Platinum Member
May 17, 2005
2,144
2
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Veramocor
I think his argument in summary is that the United States in particular values 9salary wise) professions that may be easier than engineering and don't really produce anything like Finance or business.

If you are talking about salaries rising quickly, yes. Starting wise, not so much.

Top 10 college majors starting salaries.

What do you know, my major is number 2 again. I actually had a job offer that would have put me in the average(which is good for my area), but I'm going back to school right now to pursue some biochemistry. Can't exactly go to class if I'm flying around the country/world doing work. It actually would have opened a ton of doors for me because it was a Fortune 100 company and former Dow Jones component.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: mcmilljb
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Veramocor
I think his argument in summary is that the United States in particular values 9salary wise) professions that may be easier than engineering and don't really produce anything like Finance or business.

If you are talking about salaries rising quickly, yes. Starting wise, not so much.

Top 10 college majors starting salaries.

What do you know, my major is number 2 again. I actually had a job offer that would have put me in the average(which is good for my area), but I'm going back to school right now to pursue some biochemistry. Can't exactly go to class if I'm flying around the country/world doing work. It actually would have opened a ton of doors for me because it was a Fortune 100 company and former Dow Jones component.

JMU said the usual hiring salary for CPA's is 60,000 entry level.

Accountant is such a broad term we get under represented on these lists.

Still make them though. :)

I really love creating things, writing programs, etc.. but I'll be perfectly honest and say the highly complicated mathematics don't click in my brain very well.

Economics/Law I tend to remember every word.

I have a good ability to pay attention to small details, and picked Accounting so that I can work on the side in the technology sector, or maybe even make that my place of employment if I find a good company.

Currently setting my sights on the great benefits and opportunities of the federal government though. Oh and helping out in the one of the next annual ATOT Tax thread. ;)

Much respect for engineers, and if I wanted to I could be a C (maybe B) student engineer, but I can enjoy myself about as much as one can enjoy themselves at a job and be an A level accountant and help people in the process.

People need accountants, and not everyone can do that either.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
It sounds like you need a job change, not necessarily a career change.

I was also thinking Broadcom....till he said that he was in Silicon Valley.

Broadcom is in Irvine next to UCI yo.
 

gwai lo

Senior member
Sep 29, 2004
347
0
0
hm, sounds like the OP was doing it wrong from what I read. I never thought of an engineering degree as learning a specific set of skills you take out to the work force, but rather how to obtain those skills. Maybe I've just been brainwashed after three years, but I've never taken my coursework as "OMG THIS IS PRACTICAL IF I GET A JOB TOMORROW". I saw it as four years of learning how to solve problems, in any form.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
6
71
Originally posted by: gwai lo
hm, sounds like the OP was doing it wrong from what I read. I never thought of an engineering degree as learning a specific set of skills you take out to the work force, but rather how to obtain those skills. Maybe I've just been brainwashed after three years, but I've never taken my coursework as "OMG THIS IS PRACTICAL IF I GET A JOB TOMORROW". I saw it as four years of learning how to solve problems, in any form.

Silly ghost man! This kind of rational thinking has no place here. We are arguing on the internet. Kindly leave your logic at the door.
 

mcmilljb

Platinum Member
May 17, 2005
2,144
2
81
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: mcmilljb
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Veramocor
I think his argument in summary is that the United States in particular values 9salary wise) professions that may be easier than engineering and don't really produce anything like Finance or business.

If you are talking about salaries rising quickly, yes. Starting wise, not so much.

Top 10 college majors starting salaries.

What do you know, my major is number 2 again. I actually had a job offer that would have put me in the average(which is good for my area), but I'm going back to school right now to pursue some biochemistry. Can't exactly go to class if I'm flying around the country/world doing work. It actually would have opened a ton of doors for me because it was a Fortune 100 company and former Dow Jones component.

JMU said the usual hiring salary for CPA's is 60,000 entry level.

Accountant is such a broad term we get under represented on these lists.

Still make them though. :)

I really love creating things, writing programs, etc.. but I'll be perfectly honest and say the highly complicated mathematics don't click in my brain very well.

Economics/Law I tend to remember every word.

I have a good ability to pay attention to small details, and picked Accounting so that I can work on the side in the technology sector, or maybe even make that my place of employment if I find a good company.

Currently setting my sights on the great benefits and opportunities of the federal government though. Oh and helping out in the one of the next annual ATOT Tax thread. ;)

Much respect for engineers, and if I wanted to I could be a C (maybe B) student engineer, but I can enjoy myself about as much as one can enjoy themselves at a job and be an A level accountant and help people in the process.

People need accountants, and not everyone can do that either.

CPA isn't an entry-level major/degree though. That's like saying a entry-level PE makes $xx,000, but it's not an entry-level major/degree. Although I can see accounting salaries rising.

I've done accounting classes, and I think it's fun. It's boring as shit doing it on paper because it takes so long, but you really learn what you're doing. If I had to pick a business major, I would want to do a double with accounting and insurance/risk managment.
 

TruePaige

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2006
9,874
2
0
Originally posted by: mcmilljb
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: mcmilljb
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Veramocor
I think his argument in summary is that the United States in particular values 9salary wise) professions that may be easier than engineering and don't really produce anything like Finance or business.

If you are talking about salaries rising quickly, yes. Starting wise, not so much.

Top 10 college majors starting salaries.

What do you know, my major is number 2 again. I actually had a job offer that would have put me in the average(which is good for my area), but I'm going back to school right now to pursue some biochemistry. Can't exactly go to class if I'm flying around the country/world doing work. It actually would have opened a ton of doors for me because it was a Fortune 100 company and former Dow Jones component.

JMU said the usual hiring salary for CPA's is 60,000 entry level.

Accountant is such a broad term we get under represented on these lists.

Still make them though. :)

I really love creating things, writing programs, etc.. but I'll be perfectly honest and say the highly complicated mathematics don't click in my brain very well.

Economics/Law I tend to remember every word.

I have a good ability to pay attention to small details, and picked Accounting so that I can work on the side in the technology sector, or maybe even make that my place of employment if I find a good company.

Currently setting my sights on the great benefits and opportunities of the federal government though. Oh and helping out in the one of the next annual ATOT Tax thread. ;)

Much respect for engineers, and if I wanted to I could be a C (maybe B) student engineer, but I can enjoy myself about as much as one can enjoy themselves at a job and be an A level accountant and help people in the process.

People need accountants, and not everyone can do that either.

CPA isn't an entry-level major/degree though. That's like saying a entry-level PE makes $xx,000, but it's not an entry-level major/degree. Although I can see accounting salaries rising.

I've done accounting classes, and I think it's fun. It's boring as shit doing it on paper because it takes so long, but you really learn what you're doing. If I had to pick a business major, I would want to do a double with accounting and insurance/risk managment.

Well I really meant how do you decide what counts for Accounting salary on sites like that?

Do they average all of it together?

Because you can be considered an accountant with a 2 year degree, or a 4 year degree..some people call themselves accountants without formal training at all. Many CPA's hold masters level degrees.

It is such a broad term it makes it hard to judge data online.

It is definately interesting. I really enjoy the law part of it so far.

I'm doing the double major Accounting / Business Management program. :)
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
11,169
1
0
Originally posted by: gwai lo
hm, sounds like the OP was doing it wrong from what I read. I never thought of an engineering degree as learning a specific set of skills you take out to the work force, but rather how to obtain those skills. Maybe I've just been brainwashed after three years, but I've never taken my coursework as "OMG THIS IS PRACTICAL IF I GET A JOB TOMORROW". I saw it as four years of learning how to solve problems, in any form.

dude, clearly you didn't read what I said because I clearly said this:
In other words, people here like to champion the fact that EE degrees teach you to actually solve problems and actually create and do things, along with teaching you work ethic. But that's exactly why I think it's a horse-shit degree - the industries behind creating physical products now only seemingly compete on gross margins, whereas companies that create more intangible things or manage services are able to pay employees better and offer better and more flexible working conditions, and that the strict EE degree doesn't prepare you for those jobs.
 

mcmilljb

Platinum Member
May 17, 2005
2,144
2
81
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: mcmilljb
Originally posted by: TruePaige
Originally posted by: mcmilljb
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: Veramocor
I think his argument in summary is that the United States in particular values 9salary wise) professions that may be easier than engineering and don't really produce anything like Finance or business.

If you are talking about salaries rising quickly, yes. Starting wise, not so much.

Top 10 college majors starting salaries.

What do you know, my major is number 2 again. I actually had a job offer that would have put me in the average(which is good for my area), but I'm going back to school right now to pursue some biochemistry. Can't exactly go to class if I'm flying around the country/world doing work. It actually would have opened a ton of doors for me because it was a Fortune 100 company and former Dow Jones component.

JMU said the usual hiring salary for CPA's is 60,000 entry level.

Accountant is such a broad term we get under represented on these lists.

Still make them though. :)

I really love creating things, writing programs, etc.. but I'll be perfectly honest and say the highly complicated mathematics don't click in my brain very well.

Economics/Law I tend to remember every word.

I have a good ability to pay attention to small details, and picked Accounting so that I can work on the side in the technology sector, or maybe even make that my place of employment if I find a good company.

Currently setting my sights on the great benefits and opportunities of the federal government though. Oh and helping out in the one of the next annual ATOT Tax thread. ;)

Much respect for engineers, and if I wanted to I could be a C (maybe B) student engineer, but I can enjoy myself about as much as one can enjoy themselves at a job and be an A level accountant and help people in the process.

People need accountants, and not everyone can do that either.

CPA isn't an entry-level major/degree though. That's like saying a entry-level PE makes $xx,000, but it's not an entry-level major/degree. Although I can see accounting salaries rising.

I've done accounting classes, and I think it's fun. It's boring as shit doing it on paper because it takes so long, but you really learn what you're doing. If I had to pick a business major, I would want to do a double with accounting and insurance/risk managment.

Well I really meant how do you decide what counts for Accounting salary on sites like that?

Do they average all of it together?

Because you can be considered an accountant with a 2 year degree, or a 4 year degree..some people call themselves accountants without formal training at all. Many CPA's hold masters level degrees.

It is such a broad term it makes it hard to judge data online.

It is definately interesting. I really enjoy the law part of it so far.

I'm doing the double major Accounting / Business Management program. :)

Well my guess(from reading the article) is that these are fresh 4 year graduates.
Top 10 Starting Salaries by College Major

I think I find it interesting because I like to know how things work.