One example of how undocumented workers hurt America

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit


You just don't get it and I'm begining to believe that for some perverted reason you just like calling other people racist. The illegals are a drain on our system, the only people benifiting from them are their direct employers.

Becasue, you take away the hypocritical illegal finger pointing and that is all they have besides same old racist fearmongering saying they are a "drain" that is a load of crap, you dont add workers to a economy and it hurts them, crack a history book, this is a unamerican concept that has always been proven wrong lou dobbs or whoever you get this xenophobic crap is full of sh1t try american history lesson and not a right wing pundit aligning themselves with KKK and nazis, it is good for the heart and mind.

Yeah if you decide to crack the history book you only have to go back to the Great Deprresion to see an example of what too many workers can do to an economny. The same thing could happen here.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
We need to punish everyone we cna catch who employs illegals. Large fines and possibly even jail entences for the worst of them. Accountability for everyone.

I agree, we should come down on those who bypass workers rights.

Yeah, except for the ones sneaking into the country illegally. :roll:

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
We also need to build a fence on the border. I wasn't sure about that, but listening to all the defenders of illegals telling me it won't work has convinced me it will work, or at the very least slow the illegal immigration down 90% or better.

For one, no fence has ever worked, it is a waste of money, and money is about the only rational argument there is to the issue, deportation is far more expensive in the long run and we would be throwing away free labor and the next generation of workers we need to keep this country solvent. A wall will be scaled endlessly until we look at why they are migrating in such large numbers, namely NAFTA raping them out of their homes and employment.

An 10 foot high double electric fence would sure slow things down and would be cheap in the long run. Couple it with electronic survailence, possibly even a dedicated sattelite or two. The way I see it there is no way in hell I will ever consider an amnesty until the border is secure.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
It's too bad their country is so crappy and ours is so good, but it's really not my problem. However, illegals sneaking into our country is my problem and I hope we do something about it. Hey, they have oil and an apparently terrorist goverment, let's invade them!!

It is our neighbor and we have a level of responsibility for them coming over here through globalization scams. There is no rational argument yet not based on xenophobia for hindering these workers. Feel free to try though. But historiclly, economiclly in the long term there is no rational reason to screw over this many workers, this is a free ride for americas economy, and you are so wrapped up in them feeding their famlies you forget the big picture.[/quote]
This is where you are lost. Just because something is "good for the economy" doesn't mean it's good for me or the majority of Americans.

Laws change with the stroke of a pen, save your illegal stuff, we all heard it again and again, where are your papers, oh yeah, you probably have none since you were just handed your citizenship on a platter and crossed no desert or risked your freedom to start a new life here.

What a joke. My Great Grandfather came here as a young boy and as a young man he fought in the Civil War to free the slaves. My Father fought in WW2 and has two silver stars and 2 purple hearts. I have worked just as hard as anybody else, harder then most I'm sure. I have NOTHING to feel guilty about. Youi conviently ignore all the seserving people who are waiting in line to get into this country in favor of a bunch of arrogants who think the fact that they "work hard" is the only reason they need for amnesty. Pathetic!!

Once again the right pushes a issue and divides america in most unamerican ways, congrats for becoming a elitest becasue you happen to be squeezed out on a section of land, you are owed everything now arent you and how dare someone come here to help themselves to what is yours? Pathetic right wing jingoistic bvllsh1t is what it is.

Educate yourself on what is going on already, I know you are not a fool like the bigots in here.

Here is a refresher of something you already know, If the right pushes an issue and it is cut and dry one way or another on their side, dollars to doughnuts is there is a whole other story and their side is emotional/fear based to distract.

You need to learn to think for yourself too, instead of blindly accepting what Ted Kennedy and the rest of the "elitist" liberals want. Both sides of this issue are using emotional arguments. As I said, as long as the illegals are still streaming across the border I will never support an amnesty. Let's bite the bullet, build the fence and then see about tackeling the rest of the problem.

For now, I say we need a guest worker program and a fence. That creates a second class citizen, but we cna tackle that problem later.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit



Yeah if you decide to crack the history book you only have to go back to the Great Deprresion to see an example of what too many workers can do to an economny. The same thing could happen here.

What? Where do you get this crap? The depression had NOTHING to do with too many workers, wow, where are you getting this crap?

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Yeah, except for the ones sneaking into the country illegally. :roll:

What is the point in blaming the worker? This is plain dumb.Employers yes, but a worker trying to feed their family? wtf?

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
An 10 foot high double electric fence would sure slow things down and would be cheap in the long run. Couple it with electronic survailence, possibly even a dedicated sattelite or two. The way I see it there is no way in hell I will ever consider an amnesty until the border is secure.

Why? We have always had free migration for mexican migrants until the 20's and even after that agribuisness got exceptions made. It benefits us and gives them work? What is the problem? Sure they should be paying tax.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

This is where you are lost. Just because something is "good for the economy" doesn't mean it's good for me or the majority of Americans.

And just as something that is good for our economy as NAFTA is does not mean it is good for us when all the displaced labor comes across the border looking for work that was lost, it happens. That is the free market, brought to you by the very people you are siding with.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
What a joke. My Great Grandfather came here as a young boy and as a young man he fought in the Civil War to free the slaves. My Father fought in WW2 and has two silver stars and 2 purple hearts. I have worked just as hard as anybody else, harder then most I'm sure. I have NOTHING to feel guilty about. Youi conviently ignore all the seserving people who are waiting in line to get into this country in favor of a bunch of arrogants who think the fact that they "work hard" is the only reason they need for amnesty. Pathetic!!

And you are not your ancestors, so save it, I specificlly left history out of this and am dealing with the here and now. You are not anything special becasue you happened to plop out on this soil and get handed a piece of paper, what gives you the right to deny people who actually stand up and fight for what you have had handed to you, nothing except your own selfishness and feeling of superiority.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You need to learn to think for yourself too, instead of blindly accepting what Ted Kennedy and the rest of the "elitist" liberals want. Both sides of this issue are using emotional arguments. As I said, as long as the illegals are still streaming across the border I will never support an amnesty. Let's bite the bullet, build the fence and then see about tackeling the rest of the problem.
For now, I say we need a guest worker program and a fence. That creates a second class citizen, but we cna tackle that problem later.

In other words you are all for the full-on neocon pro-corporate slave labor plan, congrats, you have swallowed a bigger load of kool aid then the iraq war BS it seems, BS fence fantasys and all.

And BTW I never saw wtf kennedy said in that speech, and I do not speak spanish anyway, my ideas come from a long history of other americans who fought to let YOUR ancestors step onto this continent even though THEY were labeled leeches, wage depressors etc. you spit on your ancestors struggle, for the mexicans are no different if you look past the BS the right wing hatemongers feed you.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
What a joke. My Great Grandfather came here as a young boy and as a young man he fought in the Civil War to free the slaves. My Father fought in WW2 and has two silver stars and 2 purple hearts. I have worked just as hard as anybody else, harder then most I'm sure. I have NOTHING to feel guilty about. Youi conviently ignore all the seserving people who are waiting in line to get into this country in favor of a bunch of arrogants who think the fact that they "work hard" is the only reason they need for amnesty. Pathetic!!

I asked for a response for why someone believes they are deserving of US Citizenship. Though I would like to ask, how you great grandfather came to be a citizen if you don't mind? How do the merits of your ancestors grant you the unequivocable right to gain Citizenship on birth? To which I will also add the only thing you mention about what you have done to deserve such is working hard. Why is working hard worthy of attention, if you do not care about the work ethics of others as being the one of the essential keys to having a great society.

You need to learn to think for yourself too, instead of blindly accepting what Ted Kennedy and the rest of the "elitist" liberals want. Both sides of this issue are using emotional arguments. As I said, as long as the illegals are still streaming across the border I will never support an amnesty. Let's bite the bullet, build the fence and then see about tackeling the rest of the problem.

For now, I say we need a guest worker program and a fence. That creates a second class citizen, but we cna tackle that problem later.

I'd like to point out the second class citizen is the problem. It creates the sense of impropriety, which makes these immigrants seek out fake documents so they can be one of us. A working stiff trying to make it for themselves. Or they are sought out by employeers who want that cheap "illegal" untaxed labor, they can exploit. "Oh I think you are going to work another four hours for free Miguel...or I'm calling the INS". There are plenty of industries that rely on cheap illegal labor to pad their bottom line. There are also big industries that rake in huge profits from our current immigration laws.

edit: for the last time...

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You can call me neocon, or you can call me racist, or you can call me a kool-aid drinker, just don't call me late for dinner.

I think your the one being fooled. We can't even talk about amnesty until we stop the invasion, and 12 to 20 million people here illegaly is an invasion.

The invasion was fought and won a long time ago. This is immigration working as intended

Imagine if you were restricted in a city within the US. You wanted to leave but the neighboring cities told you they didn't want you. You explain what a hard worker you are and how you want to make a better life for yourself. Now expand that to say the people in the other cities are telling you it's illegal for you to move to their city. Initially they try to bar you because you have asian ethnic ties, or you would exceed their ethnic quotas. Would you call those people crazy? I certainly would. Just to make it more tempting to you, you have relatives in one of those cities who know a guy hiring people in your situation.

 

[1EZduzit]

You can call me neocon, or you can call me racist, or you can call me a kool-aid drinker, just don't call me late for dinner.

I think your the one being fooled. We can't even talk about amnesty until we stop the invasion, and 12 to 20 million people here illegaly is an invasion.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You can call me neocon, or you can call me racist, or you can call me a kool-aid drinker, just don't call me late for dinner.

I think your the one being fooled. We can't even talk about amnesty until we stop the invasion, and 12 to 20 million people here illegaly is an invasion.

Ok, so lets take this from a view we are more familar with.

Kinda like terrorism and that whole scare thing, neocons say "They hate our freedoms"
We know that is bvllshit and there is more to it, namely old foreign policy.


Now, why are immigrants coming here risking their freedom and death travelling through some of the worst deserts in the world with whole famlies in tow?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
What a joke. My Great Grandfather came here as a young boy and as a young man he fought in the Civil War to free the slaves. My Father fought in WW2 and has two silver stars and 2 purple hearts. I have worked just as hard as anybody else, harder then most I'm sure. I have NOTHING to feel guilty about. Youi conviently ignore all the seserving people who are waiting in line to get into this country in favor of a bunch of arrogants who think the fact that they "work hard" is the only reason they need for amnesty. Pathetic!!

I asked for a response for why someone believes they are deserving of US Citizenship. Though I would like to ask, how you great grandfather came to be a citizen if you don't mind? How do the merits of your ancestors grant you the unequivocable right to gain Citizenship on birth? To which I will also add the only thing you mention about what you have done to deserve such is working hard. Why is working hard worthy of attention, if you do not care about the work ethics of others as being the one of the essential keys to having a great society.

He was naturalized of course. How does that give me the right to citizenship? It's called the law, why such stupid questions? Talk your double talk someplace else because your only fooling yourself with it.

You need to learn to think for yourself too, instead of blindly accepting what Ted Kennedy and the rest of the "elitist" liberals want. Both sides of this issue are using emotional arguments. As I said, as long as the illegals are still streaming across the border I will never support an amnesty. Let's bite the bullet, build the fence and then see about tackeling the rest of the problem.

For now, I say we need a guest worker program and a fence. That creates a second class citizen, but we cna tackle that problem later.

I'd like to point out the second class citizen is the problem. It creates the sense of impropriety, which makes these immigrants seek out fake documents so they can be one of us. A working stiff trying to make it for themselves. Or they are sought out by employeers who want that cheap "illegal" untaxed labor, they can exploit. "Oh I think you are going to work another four hours for free Miguel...or I'm calling the INS". There are plenty of industries that rely on cheap illegal labor to pad their bottom line. There are also big industries that rake in huge profits from our current immigration laws.

[/quote]

I say right now the illegals aer not even 3rd class citizens. At least a guest worker program would give them some rights, which is why I use the term "2nd class citizens".

Do you have a pint here? If so I fail to see it??

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
You can call me neocon, or you can call me racist, or you can call me a kool-aid drinker, just don't call me late for dinner.

I think your the one being fooled. We can't even talk about amnesty until we stop the invasion, and 12 to 20 million people here illegaly is an invasion.

Ok, so lets take this from a view we are more familar with.

Kinda like terrorism and that whole scare thing, neocons say "They hate our freedoms"
We know that is bvllshit and there is more to it, namely old foreign policy.


Now why are the immigrants coming here? Remember this is such INSANE numbers, this rarely happens and this migration is of a historical scale.

I think the bottom line is that they come here because the pay is better, because of the value of the dollar as compared to the peso.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

I think the bottom line is that they come here because the pay is better, because of the value of the dollar as compared to the peso.

I am sure some do this, but why would they up and leave their homes by the millions, mexico is not great, but people are not starving to death and fleeing their homes risking their freedom and death on a long journey to feed their famlies, this is only happening in a few states in mexico, why is that?

What displaces so many millions to throw away their ancestoral homes to not starve in certain states.

Look into that and you will see how to stop the flow, a fence is not an answer, it is a statement, that is all.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

He was naturalized of course. How does that give me the right to citizenship? It's called the law, why such stupid questions? Talk your double talk someplace else because your only fooling yourself with it.

There is no double talk, it's a double standard. Your ancestors get a free ride, but you seek to bar future immigrants based on fear. The current laws obviously did not exist when your ancestors came through, and I'm sure they were *very* thankful for that. Again I ask why you believe yourself to be more deserve of Citizenship than those who wish to come over now. You want to know why I believe I'm worthy for Citizenship? I'm a productive worker, I pay taxes, and I've even served in the Military. I would ask no more, with military services withstanding, of my fellow Americans. What qualifications would you deem necessary to become an American? I'm asking simple questions, which is far beyond stupid questions.

You need to learn to think for yourself too, instead of blindly accepting what Ted Kennedy and the rest of the "elitist" liberals want. Both sides of this issue are using emotional arguments. As I said, as long as the illegals are still streaming across the border I will never support an amnesty. Let's bite the bullet, build the fence and then see about tackeling the rest of the problem.

For now, I say we need a guest worker program and a fence. That creates a second class citizen, but we cna tackle that problem later.

I'd like to point out the second class citizen is the problem. It creates the sense of impropriety, which makes these immigrants seek out fake documents so they can be one of us. A working stiff trying to make it for themselves. Or they are sought out by employeers who want that cheap "illegal" untaxed labor, they can exploit. "Oh I think you are going to work another four hours for free Miguel...or I'm calling the INS". There are plenty of industries that rely on cheap illegal labor to pad their bottom line. There are also big industries that rake in huge profits from our current immigration laws.

I say right now the illegals aer not even 3rd class citizens. At least a guest worker program would give them some rights, which is why I use the term "2nd class citizens".

Do you have a pint here? If so I fail to see it??

Actually you are starting with rhetoric here... second class citizen. Have a look there. They are part of society, yet do not get the full benefits of being such. So we can put this second, third, fourth, etc class business to rest.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

He was naturalized of course. How does that give me the right to citizenship? It's called the law, why such stupid questions? Talk your double talk someplace else because your only fooling yourself with it.

There is no double talk, it's a double standard. Your ancestors get a free ride, but you seek to bar future immigrants based on fear. The current laws obviously did not exist when your ancestors came through, and I'm sure they were *very* thankful for that. Again I ask why you believe yourself to be more deserve of Citizenship than those who wish to come over now. You want to know why I believe I'm worthy for Citizenship? I'm a productive worker, I pay taxes, and I've even served in the Military. I would ask no more, with military services withstanding, of my fellow Americans. What qualifications would you deem necessary to become an American? I'm asking simple questions, which is far beyond stupid questions.

A little too simple if you ask me.

When my Great Grandfather came over this country still had wild, open areas that needed settled. The US wanted and needed the settlers/immigrants then.

This country wasn't a world power with one of the best standards of living in the world then either. Now, ask yourself why your ancestors didn't come then, but now you want to be a US citizen?? I think I know the answer.

You need to learn to think for yourself too, instead of blindly accepting what Ted Kennedy and the rest of the "elitist" liberals want. Both sides of this issue are using emotional arguments. As I said, as long as the illegals are still streaming across the border I will never support an amnesty. Let's bite the bullet, build the fence and then see about tackeling the rest of the problem.

For now, I say we need a guest worker program and a fence. That creates a second class citizen, but we cna tackle that problem later.

I'd like to point out the second class citizen is the problem. It creates the sense of impropriety, which makes these immigrants seek out fake documents so they can be one of us. A working stiff trying to make it for themselves. Or they are sought out by employeers who want that cheap "illegal" untaxed labor, they can exploit. "Oh I think you are going to work another four hours for free Miguel...or I'm calling the INS". There are plenty of industries that rely on cheap illegal labor to pad their bottom line. There are also big industries that rake in huge profits from our current immigration laws.

I say right now the illegals aer not even 3rd class citizens. At least a guest worker program would give them some rights, which is why I use the term "2nd class citizens".

Do you have a pint here? If so I fail to see it??

Actually you are starting with rhetoric here... second class citizen. Have a look there. They are part of society, yet do not get the full benefits of being such. So we can put this second, third, fourth, etc class business to rest.

OK, play semantics with me and see where it gets you. How about the illegals are now just 4th rate workers and a guest worker status will at least move them to 2nd class citizens.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

I think the bottom line is that they come here because the pay is better, because of the value of the dollar as compared to the peso.

I am sure some do this, but why would they up and leave their homes by the millions, mexico is not great, but people are not starving to death and fleeing their homes risking their freedom and death on a long journey to feed their famlies, this is only happening in a few states in mexico, why is that?

What displaces so many millions to throw away their ancestoral homes to not starve in certain states.

Look into that and you will see how to stop the flow, a fence is not an answer, it is a statement, that is all.

Some?? Do you really believe any of the them would be coming across the border illegaly if it was worse for them here then at home? I don't. They are illegaly invading us for their own benifit, plain and simple. Do they even care about this country or it's citizens, only do they only care about themselves. Deep down I really feel we need to ask ourselves if they are the kind of people we want.

People say a fence won't work, and they are probably right in the long run. There are deeper issues that need addressed, but I think a fence will slow the hell out of illegal immigration to the point that we can get a handle on things. It will buy us some time and put us back in charge of who gets to immigrate into our country, which is the way it should be IMO. Hey, fences do work, they worked in Berlin for a very long time.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

A little too simple if you ask me.

When my Great Grandfather came over this country still had wild, open areas that needed settled. The US wanted and needed the settlers/immigrants then.

This country wasn't a world power with one of the best standards of living in the world then either. Now, ask yourself why your ancestors didn't come then, but now you want to be a US citizen?? I think I know the answer.

So now we don't or need any new people to come to the US? Yet we still allow current citizens to have children, when we have no need of more people? The last time I checked the early settlers came because they wanted to find a better life on their own terms. I would venture to say those on the boats felt that America had more to offer than from where they originated from. Just as that holds true today. The US needs and wants more people the same as it always has. The fear that immigrants will steal your job, overcrowd your cities, or are only a group of criminals foisted upon a hapless American public is stereotypical nonsense. No more than the dregs of our own citizenship burden "Society", but where is the outrage to deport these people?

You need to learn to think for yourself too, instead of blindly accepting what Ted Kennedy and the rest of the "elitist" liberals want. Both sides of this issue are using emotional arguments. As I said, as long as the illegals are still streaming across the border I will never support an amnesty. Let's bite the bullet, build the fence and then see about tackeling the rest of the problem.

For now, I say we need a guest worker program and a fence. That creates a second class citizen, but we cna tackle that problem later.

I'd like to point out the second class citizen is the problem. It creates the sense of impropriety, which makes these immigrants seek out fake documents so they can be one of us. A working stiff trying to make it for themselves. Or they are sought out by employeers who want that cheap "illegal" untaxed labor, they can exploit. "Oh I think you are going to work another four hours for free Miguel...or I'm calling the INS". There are plenty of industries that rely on cheap illegal labor to pad their bottom line. There are also big industries that rake in huge profits from our current immigration laws.

I say right now the illegals aer not even 3rd class citizens. At least a guest worker program would give them some rights, which is why I use the term "2nd class citizens".

Do you have a pint here? If so I fail to see it??

Actually you are starting with rhetoric here... second class citizen. Have a look there. They are part of society, yet do not get the full benefits of being such. So we can put this second, third, fourth, etc class business to rest.

OK, play semantics with me and see where it gets you. How about the illegals are now just 4th rate workers and a guest worker status will at least move them to 2nd class citizens.

I'm not playing semantics or making rhetorical commentary. I've clearly addressed the fact that calling them a one-millionth class citizen will not change the fact, they are clearly integrated into our society, yet reap no benefits on being as such. There's really no more point in trying to come up with a name for this, as the broad definition is a "Second Class Citizen".

You still haven't answer what qualifications people must meet to become a citizen. I've clearly outlined my two basic parts, adding in a good moral character would be the Three basic principles for being granted citizenship.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

A little too simple if you ask me.

When my Great Grandfather came over this country still had wild, open areas that needed settled. The US wanted and needed the settlers/immigrants then.

This country wasn't a world power with one of the best standards of living in the world then either. Now, ask yourself why your ancestors didn't come then, but now you want to be a US citizen?? I think I know the answer.

So now we don't or need any new people to come to the US? Yet we still allow current citizens to have children, when we have no need of more people? The last time I checked the early settlers came because they wanted to find a better life on their own terms. I would venture to say those on the boats felt that America had more to offer than from where they originated from. Just as that holds true told. The US needs and wants more people the same as it always has. The fear that immigrants will steal your job, overcrowd your cities, or are only a group of criminals fousted upon a hapless American public is stereotypical nonsense. No more than the dregs of our own citizenship burden "Society", but where is the outrage to deport these people?

LMAO, this is the biggest bunch of BS I've heard yet. Limit legal citzens rights to have children and deport anyone you think is a dreg?

Even if the US wants/needs more people, we as citizens have the RIGHT to control who we allow in. Get over it already.

You need to learn to think for yourself too, instead of blindly accepting what Ted Kennedy and the rest of the "elitist" liberals want. Both sides of this issue are using emotional arguments. As I said, as long as the illegals are still streaming across the border I will never support an amnesty. Let's bite the bullet, build the fence and then see about tackeling the rest of the problem.

For now, I say we need a guest worker program and a fence. That creates a second class citizen, but we cna tackle that problem later.

I'd like to point out the second class citizen is the problem. It creates the sense of impropriety, which makes these immigrants seek out fake documents so they can be one of us. A working stiff trying to make it for themselves. Or they are sought out by employeers who want that cheap "illegal" untaxed labor, they can exploit. "Oh I think you are going to work another four hours for free Miguel...or I'm calling the INS". There are plenty of industries that rely on cheap illegal labor to pad their bottom line. There are also big industries that rake in huge profits from our current immigration laws.



I say right now the illegals aer not even 3rd class citizens. At least a guest worker program would give them some rights, which is why I use the term "2nd class citizens".

Do you have a pint here? If so I fail to see it??

Actually you are starting with rhetoric here... second class citizen. Have a look there. They are part of society, yet do not get the full benefits of being such. So we can put this second, third, fourth, etc class business to rest.

OK, play semantics with me and see where it gets you. How about the illegals are now just 4th rate workers and a guest worker status will at least move them to 2nd class citizens.

I'm not playing semantics or making rhetorical commentary. I've clearly addressed the fact that calling them a one-millionth class citizen will not change the fact, they are clearly integrated into our society, yet reap no benefits on being as such. There's really no more point in trying to come up with a name for this, as the broad definition is a "Second Class Citizen".

You still haven't answer what qualifications people must meet to become a citizen. I've clearly outlined my two basic parts, adding in a good moral character would be the Three basic principles for being granted citizenship.[/quote]

See the immigration laws for your answers. If you don't like them, then lets work to change them, but that is no excuse for condoning illegal immigration.

 

[Albatross]

interesting article
http://www.vdare.com/asp/printPage.asp?...www.vdare.com/pb/060502_vanderbilt.htm

Now, let?s talk about "disappearing borders."

You often hear people say that we?re moving toward a "borderless world." But this is only true in the First World. When I wrote Alien Nation, I went to the trouble of calling up a lot of the countries that send immigrants to the U.S. I called the Japanese Consulate in New York and asked the official, how could I go about immigrating to Japan? And we have a quote, we taped him. He expressed complete surprise and astonishment. He said: "Why do you want to immigrate to Japan?" He said there might be three people a year who become Japanese, and even they don?t stay long, they try to immigrate somewhere else, like the U.S.

Well, of course, the Japanese reluctance to accept immigrants is quite well known. And they?re not about to change it.

My favorite was India.. When we called them up, the first official we got said, "Are you of Indian origin?" When we said no, he said "Submit your question in writing to the Embassy" and then he hung up!

The second official said "Are you of Indian origin?" and when we asked if it was important, he said yes, and he transferred the call. We finally got to a third official who said "Since you are not of Indian origin"?now remember, he meant race here, we?d already specified we were American citizens?"since you?re not of Indian origin, it?s a very difficult and complex process to immigrate to India. Among other things, it will require obtaining clearances from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Home Affairs. This is a very long process."

In other words, India is running a Brown India program?sort of like the old White Australia policy. And they have probably very good reasons for that. There a quite enough communal problems right now in India, without introducing other divergent elements.

Perhaps one of the most surprising countries where the borders are not "disappearing" despite fashionable belief is Mexico. It?s the largest contributor of both legal and illegal immigration to the U.S. and it?s in the process now of persuading President Bush to open the borders even further.

When we talked to the Mexican official, he said:

"Unless you?re hired by a Mexican company, a Mexican company has obtained a temporary work permit, or you are a retiree over the age of 65 who can prove financial self-sufficiency, you must get a six-month tourist visa, and apply in person to the Ministry of the Interior in Mexico City."

In person!

"If your visa expires before the process is complete, you must get a new visa and begin again."

This is a country which sends two to three hundred thousand legal and illegal immigrants to the U.S. every year.

There is no concept of reciprocity, that they should allow Americans to immigrate there because they immigrate here?even though, of course, the economic opportunities for educated Americans in Mexico would be very high.





think in the end, and this applies to all of the First World, what we?re looking at here is what I call "Hitler?s Revenge". I think that the intellectual elites and the political elites of the First World were so affected by the Second World War, were so traumatized by the struggle against Nazism, that they sort of went overboard in the opposite direction. They became convinced that any kind of ethnic identity at all was unacceptable. And so they are literally in the process of dissolving their own nations, because they can?t stand the guilt of stopping legal and illegal immigration at the border.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

No more than the dregs of our own citizenship burden "Society", but where is the outrage to deport these people?

LMAO, this is the biggest bunch of BS I've heard yet. Limit legal citzens rights to have children and deport anyone you think is a dreg?

Actually that was addressed at your own rhetorical question again. You are stating that we should get rid of those who are a burden to society, but only addressing this at the immigrants. I responded with a question asking why would you only focus on immigrants? My focus to his question is you clearly state that we (the US) does not want(ed) and need(ed) more citizens, yet clearly we allow more citizens to be born into our society. I would pointed ask why wouldn't we want more people to come to the US?

You still haven't answer what qualifications people must meet to become a citizen. I've clearly outlined my two basic parts, adding in a good moral character would be the Three basic principles for being granted citizenship.

See the immigration laws for your answers. If you don't like them, then lets work to change them, but that is no excuse for condoning illegal immigration.

I didn't ask for a reference to an immigration law. I asked you 1EZduzit, what you 1EZduzit consider as a prerequisite to granting a naturalized immigrant, citizenship. Rough criteria is perfectly suitable for answer. I would ask you to stop hiding behind "The Law is the Law" mentality. "Illegal" Immigration is not a morality issue, it's an obstructionist and protectionist ideal that has major flaws in each iteration of it's history. Nobody is in danger from a person immigrating, now more than it was for me to "immigrate" from one coast to the other.

Our laws can change overnight. The Consitution is a framework we build from to set federal law. We add admentments to refine or add new ideas to our framework. Laws get recognized as illegal from time to time. Nobody said a piece of legislation has to be legal to pass. We only require it passes a sanity check upon reaching the appellate levels.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

No more than the dregs of our own citizenship burden "Society", but where is the outrage to deport these people?

LMAO, this is the biggest bunch of BS I've heard yet. Limit legal citzens rights to have children and deport anyone you think is a dreg?

Actually that was addressed at your own rhetorical question again. You are stating that we should get rid of those who are a burden to society, but only addressing this at the immigrants. I responded with a question asking why would you only focus on immigrants? My focus to his question is you clearly state that we (the US) does not want(ed) and need(ed) more citizens, yet clearly we allow more citizens to be born into our society. I would pointed ask why wouldn't we want more people to come to the US?

You still haven't answer what qualifications people must meet to become a citizen. I've clearly outlined my two basic parts, adding in a good moral character would be the Three basic principles for being granted citizenship.

See the immigration laws for your answers. If you don't like them, then lets work to change them, but that is no excuse for condoning illegal immigration.

I didn't ask for a reference to an immigration law. I asked you 1EZduzit, what you 1EZduzit consider as a prerequisite to granting a naturalized immigrant, citizenship. Rough criteria is perfectly suitable for answer. I would ask you to stop hiding behind "The Law is the Law" mentality. "Illegal" Immigration is not a morality issue, it's an obstructionist and protectionist ideal that has major flaws in each iteration of it's history. Nobody is in danger from a person immigrating, now more than it was for me to "immigrate" from one coast to the other.

Our laws can change overnight. The Consitution is a framework we build from to set federal law. We add admentments to refine or add new ideas to our framework. Laws get recognized as illegal from time to time. Nobody said a piece of legislation has to be legal to pass. We only require it passes a sanity check upon reaching the appellate levels.

The law is the law though and I'm not hiding behind it. I can show you links of thousands of people who are starving to death in Africa. Please show me where Mexicans are starving to death in any number at all, and tell me what YOU think the standard for letting people in the country should be? Just because they want to come here and can swim isn't good enough for me.

 

[hysperion]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Yeah, I have, estimated 30 million displaced poor farmers thanks to a republican "free-trade globalization scam". Hmmm where they going to go?

It far beyond obvious you can't stand these people as you go on and on trying to make them out as criminals, maybe at first you didn't care but you have crossed that line long ago now into race bashing over a economic situation.

It's pretty sad you lost your cool over a complicated issue, now you backed yourself into the hate corner blinding yourself to the big picture.

What is really lame is you hate on the very people who will be paying for your own social security retirement, the one thing I ask, is what are you expecting to solve by stirring this pot? Revenge? For feeding their families?

You are sounding like a selfish right winger now who forgets how blessed we are in america. And I am quite sure this is exactly where you are getting this crap from.

I support those who find faults and complain about things that happen in our country- hell it's freedom and part of what makes it so great. But I have never seen a post of yours saying anything positive about the majority of the citizens of this country- usually you resort to mindless drivel calling everyone Klansmen or whatever oher bs you can imagine. You sir are a worse then the people you preach against. If the other countries of the world are so much better then your own- I have some advice......move there!

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

The law is the law though and I'm not hiding behind it. I can show you links of thousands of people who are starving to death in Africa. Please show me where Mexicans are starving to death in any number at all, and tell me what YOU think the standard for letting people in the country should be? Just because they want to come here and can swim isn't good enough for me.

That is why I'm asking you, again what criteria is needed to grant an immigrant citizenship, in your opinion. I'm focusing on this point because you seem to imply that people coming across the border(s) have some inherent quality that makes them unfit to live in the US.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: hysperion
If the other countries of the world are so much better then your own- I have some advice......move there!

:laugh: Going for the unoriginality award today eh?


Anyhow, the majority of people in the country need to WTFU -or- get off their asses and stand up for what concerns you, so cry more for me ok?

Why would I come into a politics forum to give someone with an opposing viewpoint a fluffjob? Get a grip.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

The law is the law though and I'm not hiding behind it. I can show you links of thousands of people who are starving to death in Africa. Please show me where Mexicans are starving to death in any number at all, and tell me what YOU think the standard for letting people in the country should be? Just because they want to come here and can swim isn't good enough for me.

That is why I'm asking you, again what criteria is needed to grant an immigrant citizenship, in your opinion. I'm focusing on this point because you seem to imply that people coming across the border(s) have some inherent quality that makes them unfit to live in the US.

I SEEM to imply?? You SEEM to read into things whatever you percieve to be to your advantage in the argument.

Answer my questions TSG.

The law is the law though and I'm not hiding behind it. I can show you links of thousands of people who are starving to death in Africa. Please show me where Mexicans are starving to death in any number at all, and tell me what YOU think the standard for letting people in the country should be? Just because they want to come here and can swim isn't good enough for me.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

The law is the law though and I'm not hiding behind it. I can show you links of thousands of people who are starving to death in Africa. Please show me where Mexicans are starving to death in any number at all, and tell me what YOU think the standard for letting people in the country should be? Just because they want to come here and can swim isn't good enough for me.

That is why I'm asking you, again what criteria is needed to grant an immigrant citizenship, in your opinion. I'm focusing on this point because you seem to imply that people coming across the border(s) have some inherent quality that makes them unfit to live in the US.

I SEEM to imply?? You SEEM to read into things whatever you percieve to be to your advantage in the argument.


Answer my questions TGS.

The law is the law though and I'm not hiding behind it. I can show you links of thousands of people who are starving to death in Africa. Please show me where Mexicans are starving to death in any number at all, and tell me what YOU think the standard for letting people in the country should be? Just because they want to come here and can swim isn't good enough for me.

I've already said, if people want to work and believe there is opportunity to be had here. As long as they are willing to be productive and of sound moral character, I couldn't care if they came from the Land of Milk and Honey or from Darfur. I would welcome any want to contribute and see the opportunities to excel. I've explained this at least a few times. You on the other hand have not explained why you want to prevent entry of immigrants. There shouldn't be a disclaimer when gaining entry, of "Is your country in turmoil?" People that are motivated to be productive citizens should be welcome with open arms. We have our fair share of US Citizens that refuse to this very simple task.

If you can't be bothered with answering my questions, I'm going to stop my dicussion with you, and agree do disagree as you insist on bringing the discussion in circles without addressing anything I ask. I will ask a final time:

What qualifications/qualities must someone exhibit to gain entry into the US?

What is wrong with people immigrating to the US? ( actually wanted to put, "Is there anything inherently wrong with people wanting to immigrate to America?", but left it as is in case anyone is addressing the question)

edit: I've asked this as well, but it does not entirely pertain to the immigration idea. Though what have you accomplished to make yourself more deserving, of US citizenship, than a movitated immigrant? I ask this because you give the perception that citizenship is something to be guarded.

Also on the "Law is the Law though" business... the day before the 1986 immigration act, the law was the law. The day after the 1986 act, the law was changed. Everything in one day was made legal. So do not pretend that it cannot happen again.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: hysperion

Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Yeah, I have, estimated 30 million displaced poor farmers thanks to a republican "free-trade globalization scam". Hmmm where they going to go?

It far beyond obvious you can't stand these people as you go on and on trying to make them out as criminals, maybe at first you didn't care but you have crossed that line long ago now into race bashing over a economic situation.

It's pretty sad you lost your cool over a complicated issue, now you backed yourself into the hate corner blinding yourself to the big picture.

What is really lame is you hate on the very people who will be paying for your own social security retirement, the one thing I ask, is what are you expecting to solve by stirring this pot? Revenge? For feeding their families?

You are sounding like a selfish right winger now who forgets how blessed we are in america. And I am quite sure this is exactly where you are getting this crap from.

I support those who find faults and complain about things that happen in our country- hell it's freedom and part of what makes it so great. But I have never seen a post of yours saying anything positive about the majority of the citizens of this country- usually you resort to mindless drivel calling everyone Klansmen or whatever oher bs you can imagine. You sir are a worse then the people you preach against. If the other countries of the world are so much better then your own- I have some advice......move there!

You are right on the mark. You know, when you click into this forum, it says in capital letters no personal flames will be tolerated. However, Steeplerot continues to post. I even took one thread - ONE - and copied every comment he made that -was- a personal flame...in MS Word, single spaced, I had nearly TWO PAGES. Amazing isnt it? Ah well. He doesnt bother me at all...in fact, he entertains me more than anything. It's like watching a socialist version of Saturday Night Live LOL

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

You are right on the mark. You know, when you click into this forum, it says in capital letters no personal flames will be tolerated. However, Steeplerot continues to post. I even took one thread - ONE - and copied every comment he made that -was- a personal flame...in MS Word, single spaced, I had nearly TWO PAGES. Amazing isnt it? Ah well. He doesnt bother me at all...in fact, he entertains me more than anything. It's like watching a socialist version of Saturday Night Live LOL

Gee, thanks I guess, anyhow if you spent that much time reading about history and current events from something besides some right wing rag you would know what you are talking in here about and not get flamed, try it.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: blackangst1

You are right on the mark. You know, when you click into this forum, it says in capital letters no personal flames will be tolerated. However, Steeplerot continues to post. I even took one thread - ONE - and copied every comment he made that -was- a personal flame...in MS Word, single spaced, I had nearly TWO PAGES. Amazing isnt it? Ah well. He doesnt bother me at all...in fact, he entertains me more than anything. It's like watching a socialist version of Saturday Night Live LOL

Gee, thanks I guess, anyhow if you spent that much time reading about history and current events from something besides some right wing rag you would know what you are talking in here about and not get flamed, try it.

Actually since I'm an English major with a background in history I've read my share.

Thanks for posting. Please pull through

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: blackangst1

You are right on the mark. You know, when you click into this forum, it says in capital letters no personal flames will be tolerated. However, Steeplerot continues to post. I even took one thread - ONE - and copied every comment he made that -was- a personal flame...in MS Word, single spaced, I had nearly TWO PAGES. Amazing isnt it? Ah well. He doesnt bother me at all...in fact, he entertains me more than anything. It's like watching a socialist version of Saturday Night Live LOL

Gee, thanks I guess, anyhow if you spent that much time reading about history and current events from something besides some right wing rag you would know what you are talking in here about and not get flamed, try it.

Actually since I'm an English major with a background in history I've read my share.

Thanks for posting. Please pull through

And yet you link to worldnetdaily as fact, guess you were asleep when your professor taught you about checking up on your sources huh? :roll: