One example of how undocumented workers hurt America

[BoomerD]

Just look at the way Mexico deals with illegal immigrants. If we tried that here, there would be all kinds of screaming and accusations of human rights abuses....(and rightly so)
The hispanic lobby is a strong one, and has the support of many businesses who employ them, because they want someone else to support their workers when they're not working for them...as wellas provide them with medical care, which might cost the employer money...

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: ironwing


So, luck of the draw, eh? Other than being born here, undocumented workers do all the things you listed, except obey the law concerning immigration status because WE WON'T LET THEM; get it? The only thing blocking illegal immigrants and legal status is bad law and bad policy. Fix the law and all those "illegals" become legal and go on with their work growing food for Americans, cleaning American houses, building American houses, and generally doing for Americans as they have been doing, only they would have legal status. Oh, and their employers would start having to pay the taxes they've been stealing from the rest of us. A win-win situation compared to the current situation.

Why don't we just "fix" all the laws then? Make EVERYTHING legal. Murder -- legal. Rape -- legal. Robbery -- legal. Embezzlement -- legal. Child abuse -- legal. Assault -- legal. Torture -- legal (oops! that one is already legal according to bush).

What part of ILLEGAL don't you understand. Don't you realize that a nation that can't control its borders is DOOMED? Don't you realize that giving anyone who can violate our borders and our laws amnesty or legal status will cause MILLIONS MORE to come here? Don't you realize that societies without border control and laws face anarchy?

Your ridiculous prescription to "fix" the ILLEGAL immigration problem is a recipe for disaster. I can't believe you're suggesting such nonsense seriously. It's a parody, right? Like Stephen Colbert, right? Just joking, right?

What is your solution? There are several million folks living and working here that you apparantly want to see gone. How do you propose to accomplish this? Each is entitled to due process. These several millions have children who are U.S. citizens. How do you propose to deal with these children? My plan solves the problem. Let's see your plan.

DUE PROCESS???

I'll give you an example of what I consider dut process for people who ILLEGALLY invade my country. Round them up, arrest them, send them back where they came from. If they want their children who were born here to be Americans they can leave them behind -- or they can take them back home with them. That's up to them.

Sound harsh? They should have considered the consequences of their crime when they crossed the border ILLEGALLY then.

Why don't you ask how we can fix the problems these ILLEGALS have created for American workers? Why don't you tell me how we're going to fix the problems they've created for states like Washington? Where is Washington going to get $75 MILLION to repay for the ILLEGAL'S illegal medical services?

Answer: the same place they got the money to begin with. The American taxpayer. You should be as concerned with THEM as you are with allowing ILLEGAL CRIMINALS to stay here after violating our borders and our laws.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: ironwing

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: ironwing


So, luck of the draw, eh? Other than being born here, undocumented workers do all the things you listed, except obey the law concerning immigration status because WE WON'T LET THEM; get it? The only thing blocking illegal immigrants and legal status is bad law and bad policy. Fix the law and all those "illegals" become legal and go on with their work growing food for Americans, cleaning American houses, building American houses, and generally doing for Americans as they have been doing, only they would have legal status. Oh, and their employers would start having to pay the taxes they've been stealing from the rest of us. A win-win situation compared to the current situation.

Why don't we just "fix" all the laws then? Make EVERYTHING legal. Murder -- legal. Rape -- legal. Robbery -- legal. Embezzlement -- legal. Child abuse -- legal. Assault -- legal. Torture -- legal (oops! that one is already legal according to bush).

What part of ILLEGAL don't you understand. Don't you realize that a nation that can't control its borders is DOOMED? Don't you realize that giving anyone who can violate our borders and our laws amnesty or legal status will cause MILLIONS MORE to come here? Don't you realize that societies without border control and laws face anarchy?

Your ridiculous prescription to "fix" the ILLEGAL immigration problem is a recipe for disaster. I can't believe you're suggesting such nonsense seriously. It's a parody, right? Like Stephen Colbert, right? Just joking, right?

What is your solution? There are several million folks living and working here that you apparantly want to see gone. How do you propose to accomplish this? Each is entitled to due process. These several millions have children who are U.S. citizens. How do you propose to deal with these children? My plan solves the problem. Let's see your plan.

DUE PROCESS???

I'll give you an example of what I consider dut process for people who ILLEGALLY invade my country. Round them up, arrest them, send them back where they came from. If they want their children who were born here to be Americans they can leave them behind -- or they can take them back home with them. That's up to them.

Sound harsh? They should have considered the consequences of their crime when they crossed the border ILLEGALLY then.

They aren't criminals right now. In some cases, they are suspects but in most cases they aren't even that. You see we have the Constitution that protects all of us against the "Round them up, arrest them, send them back" mentality. We have to demonstrate in a court of law that each person is here illegally before deporting them.

Assuming a person is found guilty of immigration violations you are suggesting we allow American children to leave the country in the care of known criminals? Good luck with that one. You complain about current healthcare costs. How do you feel about the prospect of paying healthcare plus room and board for millions of American children whose parents you've just deported?

Getting back to the "round them up" part of your well thought out plan; how do you propose to accomplish this? I'd like to hear your ideas on how this should be done.

 

[BBond]

Don't play semantic games with me. These people crossed our borders ILLEGALLY and the only way to "fix" that situation is to send them back across the border. Period.

If they want to leave THEIR kids behind that's up to them. If they want their kids to go home with them, that's up to them to. The bottom line, the ONLY thing that matters, is that THEY ALL GO BACK WHERE FROM WHENCE THEY CAME.

They don't have any Constitutional rights, no due process, because they don't belong here to begin with. The Constitution protects Americans, not ILLEGAL INVADERS.

 

[BBond]

As for rounding them up, just stop by the local pick up point for day laborers. Demand that employers verify all of their employees' citizenship. Employers KNOW who their ILLEGAL workers are. Place hefty fines and imprisonment on those employers who continue to hire illegals. Start arresting some CEO's and you'll know very quickly who the ILLEGALS are.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: BBond
Don't play semantic games with me. These people crossed our borders ILLEGALLY and the only way to "fix" that situation is to send them back across the border. Period.

If they want to leave THEIR kids behind that's up to them. If they want their kids to go home with them, that's up to them to. The bottom line, the ONLY thing that matters, is that THEY ALL GO BACK WHERE FROM WHENCE THEY CAME.

They don't have any Constitutional rights, no due process, because they don't belong here to begin with. The Constitution protects Americans, not ILLEGAL INVADERS.

Good thing you are wrong. The Constitution protects citizens and non-citizens alike. If a person is on American turf, the Constitution applies. Why do you think the Bushies set up the torture camp at Gitmo instead of in Virginia?

As to their kids, if folks are found guilty of a crime that results in their deportation the fate of their American children probably won't be up to them.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: BBond
I hope all of the people who are defending this continuing failure of immigration policy take a long hard look at this. It's just what we've been telling them. Not only are these ILLEGAL immigrants forcing wages DOWN, they are LEECHING off of social programs like Medicare and Social Security -- PROGRAMS THAT WERE MEANT FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS NOT ILLEGAL CRIMINALS WHO VIOLATE OUR BORDERS AND WHOSE PRESENCE IS A DETRIMENT TO OUR ECONOMY.

Perhaps when a few more states are forced to repay millions of dollars for services rendered to people who shouldn't be in America in the first place someone in government will WTFU and demand that the current administration enforce existing immigration laws and send these criminals, these thieves, these leeches, back where they came from.

Your just as much of leech of the programs as the illegals. At least the illegals have jobs.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: BBond
As for rounding them up, just stop by the local pick up point for day laborers. Demand that employers verify all of their employees' citizenship. Employers KNOW who their ILLEGAL workers are. Place hefty fines and imprisonment on those employers who continue to hire illegals. Start arresting some CEO's and you'll know very quickly who the ILLEGALS are.

Who is going to do the rounding up? Local and state governments have already made it clear that this is a federal problem and they don't want to spend local dollars on it. Are you proposing that Homeland Security deploy a huge new federal police force? Do you really want a huge federal police force? How will you root out these millions? House to house searches? Raid every business in America? Your vision of America doesn't look so good.

You'll see amnesty before you see CEOs in jail for this.

 

[OFFascist]

Wow, government bueracracy wastes money, go figure. That is not exactly news.

The real problem is the government and all the money we throw at it.

If it didnt have so much of our taxpayer dollars it wouldnt waste nearly as much.

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: BBond
Not only are these ILLEGAL immigrants forcing wages DOWN, they are LEECHING off of social programs like Medicare and Social Security -- PROGRAMS THAT WERE MEANT FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS NOT ILLEGAL CRIMINALS WHO VIOLATE OUR BORDERS AND WHOSE PRESENCE IS A DETRIMENT TO OUR ECONOMY.

Social programs that should not exist, social programs that mostly benefit the lazy and incompotent.

Socialism is not the answer it is the problem.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: OFFascist
Wow, government bueracracy wastes money, go figure. That is not exactly news.

The real problem is the government and all the money we throw at it.

If it didnt have so much of our taxpayer dollars it wouldnt waste nearly as much.

Thank you for the insightful analysis.

 

[IronWing]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: BBond
Not only are these ILLEGAL immigrants forcing wages DOWN, they are LEECHING off of social programs like Medicare and Social Security -- PROGRAMS THAT WERE MEANT FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS NOT ILLEGAL CRIMINALS WHO VIOLATE OUR BORDERS AND WHOSE PRESENCE IS A DETRIMENT TO OUR ECONOMY.

Social programs that should not exist, social programs that mostly benefit the lazy and incompotent.

Socialism is not the answer it is the problem.

Fess up, you're a bot aren't you?

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: BBond
Why don't we just "fix" all the laws then? Make EVERYTHING legal. Murder -- legal. Rape -- legal. Robbery -- legal. Embezzlement -- legal. Child abuse -- legal. Assault -- legal. Torture -- legal (oops! that one is already legal according to bush).

Because those are real crimes that violate the real rights of people.

When someone's rights are violated a crime has been comitted.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: BBond
Why don't we just "fix" all the laws then? Make EVERYTHING legal. Murder -- legal. Rape -- legal. Robbery -- legal. Embezzlement -- legal. Child abuse -- legal. Assault -- legal. Torture -- legal (oops! that one is already legal according to bush).

Because those are real crimes that violate the real rights of people.

When someone's rights are violated a crime has been comitted.

My rights as a citizen of a sovergn nation are being violated daily. As Government turns thier backs on citizenry and exsisting law.
It should not be about whoopy lets see which side can peddle more phony PR spin to win the hispanic vote.
Enforce the existing laws, stop the flow now, and then weed through those that are here on an ongoing basis. If there supposed to be here great. If they are not send them back.
As far as kids, they should stay with thier parents.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: BBond
Why don't we just "fix" all the laws then? Make EVERYTHING legal. Murder -- legal. Rape -- legal. Robbery -- legal. Embezzlement -- legal. Child abuse -- legal. Assault -- legal. Torture -- legal (oops! that one is already legal according to bush).

Because those are real crimes that violate the real rights of people.

When someone's rights are violated a crime has been comitted.

Oh, so you can break the law and not be guilty of a "real" crime??? So we're back to deciding which laws should be enforced and which should be ignored. :roll:

You know, that's a recipe for chaos, or prejudicial enforcement, or both.

Let me give you a clue there Mr. Anarchist -- we are, supposedly, a nation of laws and you can't pick and choose which laws you enforce and which you ignore. That defeats the entire purpose of being a nation of laws.

Another thing, what makes you think that your ILLEGAL buddies, all 12 million or so of them, aren't violating anyone's rights? Did you read the OP? What about the rights of U.S. citizens, TAXPAYERS, who are now being forced to subsidize ILLEGAL immigrants' health care? And who may now be forced to pay back the federal government for health care ILLEGALLY administered to ILLEGAL immigrants WHO SHOULD NOT BE IN AMERICA IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Not to mention the jobs these ILLEGAL immigrants are stealing from American workers by working for below minimum wage or being willing to work for less than American workers because they live twenty to a two room apartment?

Or are you going to tell us again all about how your hard working ILLEGAL immigrant buddies deserve "rights" but Americans don't because you've decided they are "white trash"?

I hope everyone is getting an earful of your version of the American state of Mexico.

This is what it will ultimately come to, folks. ILLEGALS will determine what rights you have and tell you that they deserve more rights than you because they are willing to violate our borders and our laws and work "harder" for less.

:roll:

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: BBond
Not only are these ILLEGAL immigrants forcing wages DOWN, they are LEECHING off of social programs like Medicare and Social Security -- PROGRAMS THAT WERE MEANT FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS NOT ILLEGAL CRIMINALS WHO VIOLATE OUR BORDERS AND WHOSE PRESENCE IS A DETRIMENT TO OUR ECONOMY.

Social programs that should not exist, social programs that mostly benefit the lazy and incompotent.

Socialism is not the answer it is the problem.

Social programs that your ILLEGAL buddies are leeching off of.

If you don't like Ameria's social programs please feel free to NOT avail yourself of them. The rest of us, the MAJORITY of Americans, will continue to avail ourselves of programs that WE fund. WE the "lazy and incompetent".

Buddy, you're not making very many friends here, just in case you hadn't noticed. Repeatedly referring to Americans as "trash", "lazy", "incompetent", while your ILLEGAL buddies keep pouring over our borders, stealing jobs and services, wasting tax dollars, well, you're just not getting it.

Do you actually think that Americans hospitals are full of the "lazy and incompetent"???

Are you insane???

The problem seems to be that American hospitals are more and more being filled by ILLEGAL immigrants who shouldn't be here in the first place. Perhaps if they all went home our social programs could function more efficiently. As it is now, we're throwing money away on people who not only have NO right to be here, but are here ILLEGALLY.

Again, exactly what part of ILLEGAL immigrant are you having a problem understanding?

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: BBond
Oh, so you can break the law and not be guilty of a "real" crime??? So we're back to deciding which laws should be enforced and which should be ignored. :roll:

Ofcourse.

Someone can get tossed in jail for posession of drugs, whos rights have they violated? Thier own?

Its a federal crime to have an unregistered sawed off shotgun, and you could get sent to a federal pound me in the ass prison, yet who's rights are being violated if someone merely owns one of those?

You know, that's a recipe for chaos, or prejudicial enforcement, or both.

You know it wouldnt be a problem if laws were made to punish those who violate another's rights.

Let me give you a clue there Mr. Anarchist -- we are, supposedly, a nation of laws and you can't pick and choose which laws you enforce and which you ignore. That defeats the entire purpose of being a nation of laws.

I'm no anarchist in the sense that you think, as anarchy just plain doesnt work. However you are wrong, you absolutely can pick or choose which laws you choose to follow, we all have free will.

Another thing, what makes you think that your ILLEGAL buddies, all 12 million or so of them, aren't violating anyone's rights?

Some of them might be, I however do not think the fact that they are here in and of itself is a violation of anyone's rights. The ones that trample though people's ranches though obviously violate the property rights of the land owner.

Did you read the OP? What about the rights of U.S. citizens, TAXPAYERS, who are now being forced to subsidize ILLEGAL immigrants' health care?

I blame the politicans that have caused this problem. Health care is not a right.

Not to mention the jobs these ILLEGAL immigrants are stealing from American workers by working for below minimum wage or being willing to work for less than American workers because they live twenty to a two room apartment?

That is not theft, jobs belong to the employer, and it is thiers to give as they want, government should not interefere in the marketplace.

 

[OFFascist]

Originally posted by: BBond
Perhaps if they all went home our social programs could function more efficiently.

Yep that pyramid scheme known as social security is doing just fine.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: BBond
Perhaps if they all went home our social programs could function more efficiently.

Yep that pyramid scheme known as social security is doing just fine.

SS is the most successful program ever administered. If the federal legislators hadn't robbed it, if you're ILLEGAL immigrant buddies weren't robbing it, there would be a massive surplus in the system. Problem is, the surplus is being used to plug king george's record deficit and to pay for benefits that some ILLEGAL foreign invaders are getting without deserving them.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: BBond
Oh, so you can break the law and not be guilty of a "real" crime??? So we're back to deciding which laws should be enforced and which should be ignored. :roll:

Ofcourse.

Someone can get tossed in jail for posession of drugs, whos rights have they violated? Thier own?

Its a federal crime to have an unregistered sawed off shotgun, and you could get sent to a federal pound me in the ass prison, yet who's rights are being violated if someone merely owns one of those?

You know, that's a recipe for chaos, or prejudicial enforcement, or both.

You know it wouldnt be a problem if laws were made to punish those who violate another's rights.

Let me give you a clue there Mr. Anarchist -- we are, supposedly, a nation of laws and you can't pick and choose which laws you enforce and which you ignore. That defeats the entire purpose of being a nation of laws.

I'm no anarchist in the sense that you think, as anarchy just plain doesnt work. However you are wrong, you absolutely can pick or choose which laws you choose to follow, we all have free will.

Another thing, what makes you think that your ILLEGAL buddies, all 12 million or so of them, aren't violating anyone's rights?

Some of them might be, I however do not think the fact that they are here in and of itself is a violation of anyone's rights. The ones that trample though people's ranches though obviously violate the property rights of the land owner.

Did you read the OP? What about the rights of U.S. citizens, TAXPAYERS, who are now being forced to subsidize ILLEGAL immigrants' health care?

I blame the politicans that have caused this problem. Health care is not a right.

Not to mention the jobs these ILLEGAL immigrants are stealing from American workers by working for below minimum wage or being willing to work for less than American workers because they live twenty to a two room apartment?

That is not theft, jobs belong to the employer, and it is thiers to give as they want, government should not interefere in the marketplace.

Free will doesn't give you the RIGHT to break laws. Free will means that if you're stupid enough to want to, you can break them. It doesn't mean there is some inherent right to pick and choose which laws you follow and which you break. It only means that if you're dumb enough to break the law you better be willing to face the consequences.

Your ILLEGAL buddies better be ready to face the consequences because they broke the law and the VAST majority of Americans are demanding that they pay the consequences.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: Zebo
aplogist- I think many americans, unlike BBOND, understand both sides of the issue which is why you don't see protests and the will to enforce immigration laws. It's not being an apologist, it's more like it does'nt mean anything to my life on any scale to have a bunch of illegals here vs. it means a lot for an illegal to be here. Makes the difference between starving on the mexican streets and victim to thier mob goverment to at least having a future and a wage.

On the fence.

The United States had a revolution to get rid of our oppresive government. Why can't Mexico? The United States is basically the Mexican government's welfare system... they transfer all their poor here so they don't have to worry about jobs, housing, etc.

And these illegals do work hard, most of them. It would be just swell if they would work so hard at fixing Mexico.

Because in Mexico the fourteen familes who control it will put you in a shallow grave if you start talking about socialistic measures like "homstead act", "equal lending practices" and "progressive taxation"

If the 12-20 million illegals marched on Mexico City, it would be hard to bury them all. Its theirs for the taking, but we make it much to easy for Vicente Fox...

Do you remember Kent State? 1970, four students killed by National Guardsmen on a college campus, antiwar demonstration. It was a huge media event. It made the cover of Life magazine. There were television specials. There were hit songs written about it. There were movies.

In 1968, Mexican troops opened fire on a student demonstration at the Plaza de los Tres Culturas in Mexico City. Several hundred unarmed students were killed in open air, in broad daylight, in the middle of one of the largest cities in the world, and nobody saw anything.

 

[Darkhawk28]

You know, this sounds crazy and it probably is, but I'd be more for a war to liberate Mexico than "liberate" Iran or Iraq. Then, institute a Marshall Plan and a new Mexican Constitution to rebuild that failed state. But then again, maybe not.

One thing is for sure... the problem isn't the people, it's the government of Mexico and the ruling families there.

Oh, and don't forget the corporate f*cks that hire the illegals to save a couple of bucks toward their bottom line.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Zebo
aplogist- I think many americans, unlike BBOND, understand both sides of the issue which is why you don't see protests and the will to enforce immigration laws. It's not being an apologist, it's more like it does'nt mean anything to my life on any scale to have a bunch of illegals here vs. it means a lot for an illegal to be here. Makes the difference between starving on the mexican streets and victim to thier mob goverment to at least having a future and a wage.

On the fence.

There is only ONE side to this issue. They are here ILLEGALLY. Why should America, already under dire economic pressure due mostly to the idiot-in-chief's anti-American economic policies, have to allow people who violate our borders to leech off of our social programs, force wages down, and steal jobs that Americans have and would gladly work if the ILLEGAL immigrants weren't doing them for slave wages?

Your entire argument falls apart the moment you allow people who are here ILLEGALLY some 'right' to jobs and services that they are stealing by their very ILLEGAL presence on American soil.

your entire arguement falls apart when you realize that most of us have never done a goddamn thing to earn our place in america

I earn my place every day because I am willing to follow the laws of the United States. I also earn the right to call my self a citizen of the State of Tennessee because I abide by its laws as well. Unlike the illegal immigrants who flagrantly violate Tennessee law by not purchasing the required auto insurance to legally operate a motor vehicle in the State. I've got a friend who can do nothing but pay her deductible because the person that hit her was an illegal immigrant with no insurance.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: OFFascist

Originally posted by: BBond
Not only are these ILLEGAL immigrants forcing wages DOWN, they are LEECHING off of social programs like Medicare and Social Security -- PROGRAMS THAT WERE MEANT FOR AMERICAN CITIZENS NOT ILLEGAL CRIMINALS WHO VIOLATE OUR BORDERS AND WHOSE PRESENCE IS A DETRIMENT TO OUR ECONOMY.

Social programs that should not exist, social programs that mostly benefit the lazy and incompotent.

Socialism is not the answer it is the problem.

Really show me one "minimalist government" paradise. Just one.

They have them. There are places with no capital gain taxes, no taxes on the rich, no social security, no welfare, no unions, no real education investment, no minimum wage, no OSHA, no environmental protection. They have names like "Guatemala", "Bolivia" and "Mexico". You know the kind of strangling economies your buddies are trying to escape from. Every first world economy, without exception, has a substantial public sector and substantial public investment. Every one. Show me one that doesn't or kindly shut the fusk up.

 

[Puffnstuff]

I wonder why steeplerot hasn't said anything about this thread yet? The fact is that illegal immigrants are taxing many of the social systems that are in place for the american citizen. I am all for the deportation of illegals especially now since they've started protesting in our streets for rights that are not theirs to ask for in the first place. I'm all for helping another however you don't break into another persons house and then start raising hell when you get caught. I'm tired of seeing foreign flags being waved by illegal aliens on our streets while they make demands. I personally believe that if something is not done soon that the situation has the potential to become very ugly.