Once again, a brave cop goes home tonight

[KMFJD]

Dance around all you want, the bottom line is, a 12 year old kid was shot and killed by police for playing. What a wonderful world Americans live in.

Ftfy

 

[Venix]

12 year old kid shot and killed within 1.7 seconds of police arrival. His crime? Playing.

Again with the bullshit narrative. He was assaulting passersby with a realistic firearm facsimile, not "playing." The concerned citizen who called the police acted appropriately. A police response and arrest--or at least confiscation of the "toy" and a ride home in the back of a police car--would have been completely justified.

I don't understand this obsessive need to portray Rice as a perfect angel who did absolutely nothing wrong. That he was acting like a dipshit doesn't make his death any less unnecessary or tragic, nor does it transfer responsibility away from the police. Misbehaving children don't deserve to be shot.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Again with the bullshit narrative. He was assaulting passersby with a realistic firearm facsimile, not "playing." The concerned citizen who called the police acted appropriately. A police response and arrest--or at least confiscation of the "toy" and a ride home in the back of a police car--would have been completely justified.

I don't understand this obsessive need to portray Rice as a perfect angel who did absolutely nothing wrong. That he was acting like a dipshit doesn't make his death any less unnecessary or tragic, nor does it transfer responsibility away from the police. Misbehaving children don't deserve to be shot.

Continue to play with language all you want. The fact remains, he was a 12 year old kid playing 'guns' the same as kids have been doing as long as kids have been playing and that was what he was shot and killed for.

OBEY MY AUTHORITY!

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Again with the bullshit narrative. He was assaulting passersby with a realistic firearm facsimile, not "playing." The concerned citizen who called the police acted appropriately. A police response and arrest--or at least confiscation of the "toy" and a ride home in the back of a police car--would have been completely justified.

I don't understand this obsessive need to portray Rice as a perfect angel who did absolutely nothing wrong. That he was acting like a dipshit doesn't make his death any less unnecessary or tragic, nor does it transfer responsibility away from the police. Misbehaving children don't deserve to be shot.

Even, if we considered that to be a valid argument, which is a stretch at best, you still have not proven anything. The cops badly mishandled that situation.

 

[Venix]

Continue to play with language all you want. The fact remains, he was a 12 year old kid playing 'guns' the same as kids have been doing as long as kids have been playing and that was what he was shot and killed for.

OBEY MY AUTHORITY!

Stupid or poorly behaved kids, maybe. I'm honestly quite surprised that you think that this behavior is even remotely acceptable. That's simply not how normal kids play with toy guns. That's why a frightened bystander called the police.

In any case, Rice's actions before the police arrived are irrelevant and did not cause his death. He was killed because the police responded to an unverified 911 call as if an active shooting were in progress, recklessly approached to within a few feet of Rice, and then gave him insufficient time to comply with their commands. Events would have transpired exactly the same way regardless of Rice's earlier behavior (e.g. if the 911 caller lied about him having a gun), so it's plainly obvious that his "playing with a toy" was not why he was shot.

The important issues here are that the police needlessly created a highly volatile situation in response to a single unverified emergency call, and that a child died because of their recklessness. I don't understand the need to exaggerate with clickbait-level nonsense like, "child murdered for playing with a toy!!!!" Reality is already bad enough.

 

[CitizenKain]

Lying again. It has nothing to do with "standing up for authority." Someone dropped the ball alright but you've convinced yourself that it was these officers without any consideration of the adult supervision and parenting role.

Admit it: you will never consider that. Now ask yourself: Why?

Maybe if you had decent parents we wouldn't need to constantly explain simple concepts to you. You are defending two pigs driving and murdering a child, then standing over the kid watching him bleed out, and you think it's the kid's parents fault.

 

[umbrella39]

Continue to play with language all you want. The fact remains, he was a 12 year old kid playing 'guns' the same as kids have been doing as long as kids have been playing and that was what he was shot and killed for.

OBEY MY AUTHORITY!

When I was a kid we had very realistic looking toy guns that had no orange caps. We used to play guns around and across the street from one another and "shot" at cars and people that would pass by. No one ever called the cops on us, no one was ever killed by a cop...

 

[CZroe]

When I was a kid we had very realistic looking toy guns that had no orange caps. We used to play guns around and across the street from one another and "shot" at cars and people that would pass by. No one ever called the cops on us, no one was ever killed by a cop...

Would you have put your hands up though or would you have reached for the gun? Would your parents have been watching you, ready to intervene if you misbehaved with your toy gun or explain if the police showed up?

 

[CZroe]

Maybe if you had decent parents we wouldn't need to constantly explain simple concepts to you. You are defending two pigs driving and murdering a child, then standing over the kid watching him bleed out, and you think it's the kid's parents fault.

🙄

You aren't listening. There is a problem here.

 

[khon]

Would you have put your hands up though or would you have reached for the gun? Would your parents have been watching you, ready to intervene if you misbehaved with your toy gun or explain if the police showed up?

The cops didn't give him time to put his hands up, they shot instantly. And judging by the tape they were planning to shoot, why else would they pull up right next to him ? If they wanted to yell for him to put the gun down, they would have done so from a safe distance.

Also why would the parents be watching constantly ? He was 12, kids that age can play on their own.

If we didn't have video, I could understand people taking the cops side, but how can you do so after watching what happened ? There was no reason whatsoever for the cops to pull up right next to him. By doing so they created a dangerous situation, which lead to a dead 12-year old. If they had pulled up 100 feet away, they could have yelled for him to drop the gun, without putting anyone at risk. Then they would have found out the gun was a fake, at which point they could simply talk to the kids parents, and everyone would have been better off.

 

[OCNewbie]

Rolling up hard like Clint Eastwood and blasting as they stepped out seems like good drama for a B-movie, but shouldn't be what our "trusted" protectors do. They broke policy and someone was killed. There should be a just punishment.

Policy allows them to shoot when someone reaches for a gun. They followed policy when it comes to the action that ended up getting Tamir killed.

 

[OCNewbie]

Does anyone know if the cops claimed they thought Tamir was going to run? You can see in the video that Tamir reacts when he sees the patrol car approaching him. He's first sitting down, and then as they approach, he stands up. He initially walks away from them (just for a second or two), then turns in the direction of where the car finally ends up. I read on Facebook that the cops thought he was going to run, but I don't know if that was a random Facebook commenter's speculation or something the cops said to explain why they pulled closer than would generally be advised.

 

[OCNewbie]

Even if he was waving it around, why not just wait to see if it was real?

Because at that time the officer who shot him had no reason to believe it was anything but a real gun. That's what it was dispatched as, as a person with a gun. Nothing about it potentially being fake was relayed to the responding officers.

 

[OCNewbie]

Bottom line is that you are trying to justify the shooting and killing of a 12 year old who was was shot and killed for playing with a fake/toy gun. Good for you.

No, he's not. He's justifying the action based on knowledge at the time the action was taken; you're trying to inject knowledge, that was only known after the action was taken, into a judgement.

When someone claims that an officer was justified in shooting someone because this person turned out to be a convicted criminal with a history of violence towards police officers, it's also an incorrect justification, since that knowledge wasn't known to that officer at the time they pulled the trigger.

The only information that can be used to base a judgement of an action is the information that was available at the moment the action was taken. That Tamir was 12, or that the gun was fake, does not fall into that category.

 

[CitizenKain]

No, he's not. He's justifying the action based on knowledge at the time the action was taken; you're trying to inject knowledge that was only known after the action was taken into a judgement.

When someone claims that an officer was justified in shooting someone because this person turned out to be a convicted criminal with a history of violence towards police officers, it's also an incorrect justification, since that knowledge wasn't known to that officer at the time they pulled the trigger.

The only information that can be used to base a judgement of an action is the information that was available at the moment the action was taken. That Tamir was 12, or that the gun was fake, does not fall into that category.

And none of your excuses justifies driving up and shooting someone within 2 seconds. Then lying about what happened.

 

[OCNewbie]

And none of your excuses justifies driving up and shooting someone within 2 seconds. Then lying about what happened.

Where did I attempt to justify the driving up, or the supposed lying about what happened?

I say supposed because I honestly don't know all the details about what they are said to have lied about.

 

[Victorian Gray]

No, he's not. He's justifying the action based on knowledge at the time the action was taken; you're trying to inject knowledge that was only known after the action was taken into a judgement.

When someone claims that an officer was justified in shooting someone because this person turned out to be a convicted criminal with a history of violence towards police officers, it's also an incorrect justification, since that knowledge wasn't known to that officer at the time they pulled the trigger.

The only information that can be used to base a judgement of an action is the information that was available at the moment the action was taken. That Tamir was 12, or that the gun was fake, does not fall into that category.

From an earlier post:

Nearly two years before he shot and killed a 12-year-old who had an air gun, Cleveland Police Officer Timothy Loehmann resigned from another police job after a supervisor described him as "distracted and weepy" and "emotionally immature."

Records from the Independence Police Department obtained by CNN include comments from a supervisor detailing what they called "a pattern of lack of maturity, indiscretion and not following instructions," a "dangerous loss of composure during live range training" and an "inability to manage personal stress."

"I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these deficiencies," Independence Deputy Chief Jim Polak wrote in a November 2012 memo."
...
"Ptl. Loehmann's inability to perform basic functions as instructed, and his inability to emotionally function because of a personal situation at home with an on and off again girlfriend leads one to believe that he would not be able to substantially cope, or make good decisions, during or resulting from any other stressful situation," Polok wrote.

Another memo from a sergeant who worked with Loehmann at a shooting range described the officer as "distracted," "not fit to return" after an emotional outburst and someone who was "not following simple instructions."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/justic...othy-loehmann/

Yeah, it was the kid's fault. Or, his parents fault. Or, the phase of the moon. Anybody but the fuckup who shot and killed the kid less than 2 seconds after his "gangbusters" arrival on the scene. Anybody but the clueless department that hired this fuckup in the 1st place. That same hiring that cost the jobs of 2 people involved in said hiring but not the job of the fuckup they hired.

this certainly sounds like a guy I'd want as a police officer:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/im...ce-officer.pdf

But hey, authority.

 

[Subyman]

Stupid or poorly behaved kids, maybe. I'm honestly quite surprised that you think that this behavior is even remotely acceptable. That's simply not how normal kids play with toy guns. That's why a frightened bystander called the police.

In any case, Rice's actions before the police arrived are irrelevant and did not cause his death. He was killed because the police responded to an unverified 911 call as if an active shooting were in progress, recklessly approached to within a few feet of Rice, and then gave him insufficient time to comply with their commands. Events would have transpired exactly the same way regardless of Rice's earlier behavior (e.g. if the 911 caller lied about him having a gun), so it's plainly obvious that his "playing with a toy" was not why he was shot.

The important issues here are that the police needlessly created a highly volatile situation in response to a single unverified emergency call, and that a child died because of their recklessness. I don't understand the need to exaggerate with clickbait-level nonsense like, "child murdered for playing with a toy!!!!" Reality is already bad enough.

Nobody is saying the child's behavior is acceptable. It isn't worthy of being executed within 2s of contact is the argument.

 

[OCNewbie]

Nobody is saying the child's behavior is acceptable. It isn't worthy of being executed within 2s of contact is the argument.

Nobody is saying the child was "executed within 2s of contact" for that unacceptable behavior.

 

[CZroe]

Nobody is saying the child's behavior is acceptable. It isn't worthy of being executed within 2s of contact is the argument.

"Worthy" has nothing to do with it because that judgement requires knowledge they did not have. How do you keep falling back into that logic when it has been explained repeatedly?

It has nothing to do with time either. If it did, the following question would make sense: So how long before it becomes acceptable? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? 1.8 seconds?

Whatever you decide, let's make it law. Now:
Hey, criminals and wanna-be cop killers! Apparently it is entirely unacceptable for a police officer to use lethal force in under [Subyman's preference] seconds no matter what they see or hear prior! All you have to do is shoot them in the first couple seconds and they can't do jack! They can't even do anything if it looks like you are going for your gun! Isn't that awesome? It's like shooting fish inside a barrel!

 

[CitizenKain]

"Worthy" has nothing to do with it because that judgement requires knowledge they did not have. How do you keep falling back into that logic when it has been explained repeatedly?

It has nothing to do with time either. If it did, the following question would make sense: So how long before it becomes acceptable? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? 1.8 seconds?

Whatever you decide, let's make it law. Now:
Hey, criminals and wanna-be cop killers! Apparently it is entirely unacceptable for a police officer to use lethal force in under [Subyman's preference] seconds no matter what they see or hear prior! All you have to do is shoot them in the first couple seconds and they can't do jack! They can't even do anything if it looks like you are going for your gun! Isn't that awesome? It's like shooting fish inside a barrel!

How about "Hey cops, you have to make an effort at actually being a police officer before shooting people, even if they are black." The lengths someone like you will go to defend this is unreal.

 

[CZroe]

How about "Hey cops, you have to make an effort at actually being a police officer before shooting people, even if they are black." The lengths someone like you will go to defend this is unreal.

"Making an effort as a police officer" does not mean responding to a situation described to hem almost exactly as a suicide by cop situation and not being ready to defend themselves.

The lengths you will go to mischaracterized what happened is unreal. This happens to white people too, BTW.

Edit:
http://youtu.be/-DBPCjfe8G4
He was shot in about 6 seconds. Yes, it's similarly tragic but here's what the idiot did wrong:
He didn't turn his loud motorcycle engine off to hear the officer's instructions.
He didn't keep his hands visible, instead, moving them to his waist and turning around.

Once again, this has nothing to do with him being a little black boy. It has to do with a necessary reaction police have to have to particular kinds of threatening gestures... especially in the context of ignoring instructions and brandishing a firearm (what they were told). Even a kid should be able to understand that the LAST thing you do in the presence of police is ignore their commands and reach for a toy gun.

 

[bshole]

Continue to play with language all you want. The fact remains, he was a 12 year old kid playing 'guns' the same as kids have been doing as long as kids have been playing and that was what he was shot and killed for.

OBEY MY AUTHORITY!

Pointing "guns" at random strangers is an odd way of playing. It is clearly anti-social behavior at the very least, such an act would never have crossed my mind. This kid was most likely on his way to a life of predatory crime. Please don't underestimate the significance of a teen ignoring the moral constraint which prevents most people from threatening innocent strangers. It is HIGHLY indicative of what that teen was in the process of becoming.

The shooting itself was unjustified from what I saw. At the very LEAST, the shooter should not have a job in law enforcement.

 

[CitizenKain]

"Making an effort as a police officer" does not mean responding to a situation described to hem almost exactly as a suicide by cop situation and not being ready to defend themselves.

The lengths you will go to mischaracterized what happened is unreal. This happens to white people too, BTW.

Edit:
http://youtu.be/-DBPCjfe8G4
He was shot in about 6 seconds. Yes, it's similarly tragic but here's what the idiot did wrong:
He didn't turn his loud motorcycle engine off to hear the officer's instructions.
He didn't keep his hands visible, instead, moving them to his waist and turning around.

Once again, this has nothing to do with him being a little black boy. It has to do with a necessary reaction police have to have to particular kinds of threatening gestures... especially in the context of ignoring instructions and brandishing a firearm (what they were told). Even a kid should be able to understand that the LAST thing you do in the presence of police is ignore their commands and reach for a toy gun.

Again you are too stupid to follow along.
They didn't give him commands, he didn't reach for the toy gun, they drove up next to him and murdered him. Read that line again. Watch the video even.

Pointing "guns" at random strangers is an odd way of playing. It is clearly anti-social behavior at the very least, such an act would never have crossed my mind. This kid was most likely on his way to a life of predatory crime. Please don't underestimate the significance of a teen ignoring the moral constraint which prevents most people from threatening innocent strangers. It is HIGHLY indicative of what that teen was in the process of becoming.

The shooting itself was unjustified from what I saw. At the very LEAST, the shooter should not have a job in law enforcement.

Well, he was twelve. Kids do stupid things at times, is why in a normal world police shouldn't instantly shoot them.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

No one who is minding their own business would typically have the cops called on them for pointing a gun in people's faces.

Now, if you wanted to get the cops called on you because you wanted to kill them or commit suicide by cop then that's EXACTLY the behavior you'd expect. It was a necessary and logical part of procedure that protects them from being easy prey for criminals. The cops had no choice. It wasn't a "pussy" move. Being a civil servant doesn't mean signing up for suicide or expecting them to put their lives in any more danger than is reasonable. Expecting them to face someone who they were told fit the M.O. of a cop killer/suicide by cop without being prepared to shoot first when said person reaches for what is intended to be recognized as a gun is unreasonable.

Hmm....never heard of swating? Plenty of stories of people calling cops when someone isn't doing anything wrong.

Point is, no one can expect to survive that situation. Anyone standing there, with no toy gun even, would be dead. If I was there, unarmed and doing nothing wrong, and looking away when the cop car drove to within 2 feet of me. My first reaction (and pretty much everyone) would be to turn to see what is going on, and maybe move to avoid the police car. Then I am "running from police" and shot dead too.

By that time, the cops are out and shooting me. Even if they did yell something most people would be like "huh?", and be shot dead.