On the Tyranny of the Majority in posting on a Left-leaning forum:

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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,489
20,032
146
I said look how it has changed from 1982 to today. Are they the same? no, they are not. One is from 1982 the other is from 2020, printed dictionary, same company. Bit of history lesson, Fascism was started by Musilini. Before starting fascism he was a socialist. The left tends to lean more socialist than the right does.

BUT my point is how the wording of definitions change over the years. Fascism was founded by and was far left, not right, not it is associated with the far right.

Pure bullshit. From the very people that started it:

In the 1920s, the Italian Fascists described their ideology as right-wing in the political program The Doctrine of Fascism, stating: "We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the 'right,' a fascist century."

BOTH right and left can be authoritarian OR libertarian in nature. HOW that authoritarianism manifests determines the right/left wing. Fascist authoritarianism is right-wing, communist authoritarianism is left wing.

Maybe this will help you?

 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,540
33,267
136
... bash the repeal of roe vs wade, but what the supreme court did was give control to the states, which is the opposite of fascism. ...
Um, no. Federal law was protecting women from the states. That protection was removed. The federal law wasn't forcing anything on anyone. It seems you do not grasp fascism at all.
 

Pohemi

Lifer
Oct 2, 2004
10,921
17,039
146
The OP wasn't completely confounding to me, not nearly so much as some of Moon's past threads/posts. While in my opinion it over-generalized and bordered on bothsidesism, it didn't sink too deep into psychoanalysis and reasoning for people's mentalities as he tends to do.

This is definitely a left-leaning forum, at least the P&N forum is. I think that's indisputable. And I can't entirely disagree with the notion of the forum being full of groupthink and "mob mentality" when the attacks start flying on certain posters. I get it.

What I see here for the most part though, in my opinion, is not that people are attacked for differing opinions, as 'they' would claim. If people put forth objectively factual and reasonable arguments, they are far more likely to get factual, reasonable debate without insults. But that is not what I see happening here most of the time.

Now, I would state that the minority of right-leaning posters here that continually misrepresent or outright lie about topics, are essentially written off by others (admittedly myself included). This affects how they react and interact with who they see as posters who don't approach most of the topics here in good faith. This leads to derision just about every time they post in any thread, on any topic.

I'm conscious of the fact that I do this myself, despite my own self-realization of such, and attempts to avoid it. But while I try to remain logical and reasonable, I'm also an emotional person with deep passions and shallow patience. That doesn't mean that I am not willing to listen to other opinions and stances, and participate in civil discourse and debate. I just don't like dishonesty, and it isn't because I am dishonest that I lash out at those who are.

Just one example of the point I'm trying to convey:
Yes, I'm being "mean to you." It's because that shit you are posting has been moaned about hundreds of times already, again and again. It's a stupid argument, thoroughly defeated by facts and logic. Please step out and reenter the room when you have some adult thinking to contribute.
There is a reason that people get "ganged upon" by the majority here.
 
Last edited:

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
73,384
34,926
136
I said look how it has changed from 1982 to today. Are they the same? no, they are not. One is from 1982 the other is from 2020, printed dictionary, same company. Bit of history lesson, Fascism was started by Musilini. Before starting fascism he was a socialist. The left tends to lean more socialist than the right does.

BUT my point is how the wording of definitions change over the years. Fascism was founded by and was far left, not right, not it is associated with the far right.
Modern fascism was started by the Ottoman/Turkish Committee of Union and Progress. Mussolini adopted the model for his government. I suppose, in some respects, the CUP was to the left of the sultanate-caliphate. In their ethic-centric enthusiasm, the CUP was to the right of the sultanate-caliphate.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,876
6,784
126
I heard you the first time with your reply that the OP was addressed to the left. I will be honest here and am trying my best not to be mean. I sometimes cannot understand what your posts are trying to address, as your words and grammar are all over the place. It just throws me off and I lose interest in reading the whole entire post of yours. I highly suggest using Microsoft Word. I can understand up to the first 3 or 4 sentences in your post usually. If you intentionally make posts like this to be a riddle, can you please provide a non-riddle version as well, not everyone has time.


Riddle one: walnut
Riddle two: chestnut
Riddle three: chin nut

I wish to apologize to Moonbeam.
I was sure I addressed an apology from you somewhere but this one does not seem to be the one I remember. Please don’t worry about it.

I am not trying to make a riddle or make myself difficult to understand. I have what I believe is an atypical view of the world. I see in opposites, including the left and the right politically, opposite sides of the same coin, not as “both sides pointing fingers back at the other” but a paradox, an enigma that resolve as a reconciliation that eliminates the finger pointing. This view is not the product or the result of political analysis, logic or reason, or the product of some school of thinking.
It is a byproduct of a spiritual, metaphysical, mystical, non linear, inspiration or flash of intuition that turns the world right and perfect as it really is.

This has to be confusing, it has to be seemingly impossible to understand because, while there are many paths to it as have experienced it, in my case it came as a result of despair at the loss of everything that I thought made life good instead of meaningless.

In short, on this matter of your complaint I am hard to understand, I know I am, but, because of the price I had to pay for a merest glimpse of resolution, I am not terribly moved by “I’m difficult to understand” complaints. I hope this helps you. I love those who can confess to lack of comprehension but ask for it as you have.

I got the first break in my search for an end to suffering without hope from a book on Zen. I remember throwing it across the room in rage. What it did for me was to make possible the realization that the prison of suffering in which I was trapped was the product of unconscious and unexamined assumptions I held about the need that life have my idea of meaning.

All that is the product of thought. While deep in thought as to the real reason I suffered, I experience a shock that shifted my attention. I became aware that the real me was laying on a bed conscious of a blast of wind that had hit my house, not the thinker searching his ass off.
So there I was, just a nobody on a bed at peace, all need for meaning as meaningless as everything else.

There is only now. The past and future are the product of time as thought.

Revelations isn’t about the End Times. Revelation ends time.

Also, what you realize is that everything you believed in was the prison that held you, and everything that others believe, that they think they know is bull shit too. Knowing you do not know and that nobody else does either is very irritating to people who depend on ego knowingness as fundamental to reputation having, as we were, been trained to believe not knowing anything is a condition granted only to fools.

Hope this helps.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,876
6,784
126
The OP wasn't completely confounding to me, not nearly so much as some of Moon's past threads/posts. While in my opinion it over-generalized and bordered on bothsidesism, it didn't sink too deep into psychoanalysis and reasoning for people's mentalities as he tends to do.

This is definitely a left-leaning forum, at least the P&N forum is. I think that's indisputable. And I can't entirely disagree with the notion of the forum being full of groupthink and "mob mentality" when the attacks start flying on certain posters. I get it.

What I see here for the most part though, in my opinion, is not that people are attacked for differing opinions, as 'they' would claim. If people put forth objectively factual and reasonable arguments, they are far more likely to get factual, reasonable debate without insults. But that is not what I see happening here most of the time.

Now, I would state that the minority of right-leaning posters here that continually misrepresent or outright lie about topics, are essentially written off by others (admittedly myself included). This affects how they react and interact with who they see as posters who don't approach most of the topics here in good faith. This leads to derision just about every time they post in any thread, on any topic.

I'm conscious of the fact that I do this myself, despite my own self-realization of such, and attempts to avoid it. But while I try to remain logical and reasonable, I'm also an emotional person with deep passions and shallow patience. That doesn't mean that I am not willing to listen to other opinions and stances, and participate in civil discourse and debate. I just don't like dishonesty, and it isn't because I am dishonest that I lash out at those who are not.

Just one example of the point I'm trying to convey:

There is a reason that people get "ganged upon" by the majority here.
Mill and I are different in that he delineated with enormous intelligence what issues democracies face, I am seconding his points with the psychological realities that produce them.

I am saying that while you do not believe you are dishonest in lashing out, that, in fact, it is dishonest to do so. There is deep wisdom to be learned from ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’.

Obviously, I would be doing just that, casting stones, if my intent was to condemn your behavior. I feel all the same feelings as you do. I just can’t rationally defend them.” I can see that the unconscious contempt on the right is scary. But I think there is are at least ways to react to threat, like a conservative and like a real liberal.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,778
3,073
136
EDIT: broken into coherent paragraphs by DigDog. Plus punctuation. And grammatical tense.

A) Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority on a left leaning forum is a tyrany properly to be seen as a vulgarity and to be dreaded, acting as it does through the authoritative assumption of its posters. But reflecting persons perceived that when a forum's majority is itself the tyrant collectively, over the separate individuals who post in it, its means of tyrannising are not restricted to the acts which it may do via the quality of posts therein by political pundits.

B) A virtual society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrates much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaves the soul itself.
Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the majority's opinion is not enough. There needs to be protection also against the tyranny of that prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of forum members to impose, by other means than social stigmatization, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them. To fetter the development, and, if possible, prevent the formation, of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence: and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs, as protection against political despotism.

C) But though this proposition, one might hope, is not likely to be contested in general terms, the practical question, where to place the limit, how to make the fitting adjustment between individual independence and social control, is a subject on which nearly everything remains to be done.
All that makes existence valuable to anyone, depends on the enforcement of restraints upon the actions of other people. Some rules of conduct, therefore, must be imposed, by law in the first place, and by opinion on many things which are not fit subjects for the operation of law.

D) What these rules should be, is the principal question in human affairs; but if we except a few of the most obvious cases, it is one of those which least progress has been made in resolving. No two ages, and scarcely any two countries, much less political forums have decided it alike.
And the decision of one age or country is a wonder to another. Yet the people of any given age and country no more suspect any difficulty in it, than if it were a subject on which mankind had always been agreed.
The rules which obtain among themselves appear to them self-evident and self-justifying. This all but universal illusion is one of the examples of the magical influence of customary forum decorum which is not only, as the proverb says, a second nature, but is continually mistaken for the first. The effect of custom, in preventing any misgiving respecting the rules of conduct which mankind impose on one another, is all the more complete because the subject is one on which it is not generally considered necessary that reasons should be given, either by one person to others, or by each to himself.
People are accustomed to believe, and have been encouraged in the belief by some who aspire to the character of philosophers, that their feelings, on subjects of this nature, are better than reasons, and render reasons unnecessary.
The practical principle which guides them to their opinions on the regulation of human conduct, is the feeling in each person's mind that everybody should be required to act as he, and those with whom he sympathises, would like them to act. No one, indeed, acknowledges to himself that his standard of judgement is his own liking; but an opinion on a point of conduct, not supported by reasons, can only count as one person's preference; and if the reasons, when given, are a mere appeal to a similar preference felt by other people, it is still only many people's liking instead of one.
To an ordinary man, however, his own preference, thus supported, is not only a perfectly satisfactory reason, but the only one he generally has for any of his notions of morality, taste, or propriety, which are not expressly written in whatever creed to which he or she may aspire; and his chief guide in the interpretation even of that. Men's opinions, accordingly, on what is laudable or blameable, are affected by all the multifarious causes which influence their wishes in regard to the conduct of others, and which are as numerous as those which determine their wishes on any other subject.
Sometimes their reason, at other times their prejudices or superstitions: often their social affections, not seldom their anti-social ones, their envy or jealousy, their arrogance or contemptuousness: but most commonly, their desires or fears for themselves, their legitimate or illegitimate self-interest. Wherever there is an ascendant class, a large portion of the morality of the country emanates from its class interests, and its feelings of class superiority.

E)The morality between Spartans and Helots, between slave owners and Blacks, between princes and subjects, between nobles and roturiers, between men and women, has been for the most part the creation of these class interests and feelings: and the sentiments thus generated, react in turn upon the moral feelings of the members of the ascendant class, in their relations among themselves. Where, on the other hand, a class, formerly ascendant, has lost its ascendancy, or where its ascendancy is unpopular, the prevailing moral sentiments frequently bear the impress of an impatient dislike of superiority. Another grand determining principle of the rules of conduct, both in act and forbearance, which have been enforced by law or opinion, has been the servility of mankind towards the supposed preferences or aversions of their temporal masters, or of their gods. This servility, though essentially selfish, is not hypocrisy; it gives rise to perfectly genuine sentiments of abhorrence; it made men burn magicians and heretics. Among so many baser influences, the general and obvious interests of society have of course had a share, and a large one, in the direction of the moral sentiments: less, however, as a matter of reason, and on their own account, than as a consequence of the sympathies and antipathies which grew out of them: and sympathies and antipathies which had little or nothing to do with the interests of society, have made themselves felt in the establishment of moralities with quite as great force.

A heads up on this matter, I suspect, will have little effect. Most of the capacity for serious mentation tire the brain of the average forum dweller after a few words. TLDR and, of course, delivered with great smugness and self pride. :)

Edit: Smugness and Self Pride as I am sure you realized.
i gotta, give you some advice. It's gonna be criticism, but i mean it in a good way.

1. your english is bad. Know this and own it, and take it into consideration where writing something of this size.

Let's look at what you actually wrote:
Section A)
Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority on a left leaning forum is a tyrany properly to be seen as a vulgarity and to be dreaded, acting as it does through the authoritative assumption of its posters. But reflecting persons perceived that when a forum's majority is itself the tyrant collectively, over the separate individuals who post in it, its means of tyrannising are not restricted to the acts which it may do via the quality of posts therein by political pundits.

Now, the same paragraph, but broken down so we can understand it - assuming at this time that this is a properly constructed phrase.

Like other tyrannies
implies that the paragraph will describe a state of tyranny.
the tyranny of the majority
self-explanatory; tyranny because numbers.
on a left leaning forum
many left-leaners as per above
properly to be seen as a vulgarity and to be dreaded
the previously described tyranny of numbers is bad
acting as it does
particle
through the authoritative assumption of its posters.
bad phrase with multiple possible interpretations; i will have to guess he means "left-learners impose themselves because they feel safety in numbers".

But reflecting persons
OP means himself - he is a "reflecting person" e.g. he smart
perceived that
particle
when a forum's majority is itself the tyrant collectively
when in a forum there is a strong majority
over the separate individuals who post in it
redundant
its means of tyrannising
unspecified - likely tied to the above "safety in numbers", otherwise majority imposing itself
are not restricted to
particle
the acts which it may do via
particle - try to avoid stringing multiple particles together ..
the quality of posts therein by political pundits.
implies the majority has accesss to tyrannical tools outside just posting individually.

This^ garbage, re-written in actual english, is
When there's a outstanding majority of left-leaners in a forum, their safety in numbers allows them a dominance which can't be attributed to their individual posts alone.

There. Fixed.
It's like you're trying to write poetry, but absolutely suck at your own language_of_choice. Don't. Just write what you need.

2. As a lover of rhetoric, yours is bad. On several levels. It's so bad, i have a hard time deciding which one of your faults is worse; that you undermine your own arguments, that you fail to capture the interest of your audience, or that you cannot make a point.

Section B)
can be summarized by this phrase:
Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the majority's opinion is not enough. There needs to be protection also against the tyranny of that prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of forum members to impose, by other means than social stigmatization, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them.

You ask - forgive me if i am mistaken - for a safe space. Protection from being marginalised.

If someone had the courage to stick with you until now, they would read this as you crying because the bad forum has made you cry. They gang up on you and your dumb ideas are as important as everyone else's actual facts and they need to be protected. You go on to make it seem as if everyone calling a spade a spade is the equivalent of a real life orphan-crushing machine.

This frankly is a horrible argument, but i respect your freedom to be wrong in any way you choose, and if this is the hill you want to die on, it's your right. Know that you will be sharing your resting ground with many a blue-haired liberal, and frankly, i'd be happier for you if you decided to walk it back.

Section C)
Here essentially you are trying to abstract yourself from the conversation which yourself have created; oh but WHO will make the rules? WHO to judge tyranny ?
This doesn't make you look any better, it make you look as if your discontent can't even be attributed to anything, but you are generally waving your arms at "all of this", which in turn makes any solidarity with your initial argument impossible. We get it that you are looking for someone to blame, BUT WHO ?

Section D)
I have to say, i have likely never, in my life, read such a concentration of useless fluff.
For those who haven't read it, it yet further attempts to abstract the writer from the initial accusations of bullying-by-numbers by expressing that .. i praphrase .. "the common man".. is "..justified by his own actions..", but makes no attempt at accepting or criticising this.
"People do as people do" is not really an argument.
I must guess that along the way, you lost "i am a genius that the common man doesn't understand" but then failed to actually write it into your wall of text.

As you will know, i have made the same argument myself more than once. Everyone who has read my film reviews knows that i love the "i'm just so much smarter than youze guyze" argument. When i make that argument, i take the responsibility that comes with arrogance, i don't try to drown it in fluff.

Section E)
Again, this actually reads like "humans bad", but if this was ever meant to work towards an argument that you had, the meaning is completely lost to your inability to communicate.
You need to speak with the purpose of being understood.

Please, do not take this as a statement to your genius, too sublime for the human mind. It's not. Not at all.


Conclusion:

Here is the takeaway of someone who would read what you wrote above, untangled from it's mess of bad outline, bad grammar, and generally poor command of the language.

I Am Moonbeam, i am crying because for years other humans have laughed at my stupidity, but i am just a human being and i want the freedom to be stupid, please protect me from myself.

Don't do this. There is nothing for you to be gained.
 
Last edited:

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
People who have regularly shown a willingness to disregard not just other opinions but objective reality, like you have done repeatedly, OP, should not complain when they are given the same level of discourse in return.

You've been a bloviating blowhard on here the entire time I've been aware of you. Literally from the start my awareness of you was other people making jokes about that aspect of you, where you just blather on about nonsensical thought while trying to portray yourself as the one true arbiter of truth and knowledge, when all you offer is either so obvious or so nonsensical that it didn't need to be stated or has nothing to do with anything but your own personal headspace.

But you've revealed the truth about yourself enough on here that we can see who you are. Just another full of shit right winger that wants to now absolve themself of the sins they've enabled and continue to enable (because goddamnit you need your guns). Sure, you've now become aware of just how outright evil that ideology is, but its so deeply ingrained that you can't help but try and blame everyone else for your own personal shortcomings, since that is the way of right wingers.

Eat shit. Fuck off. There's already more than enough threads you've made whining about people shitting on your crapass posts. Either actually offer something worthwhile or STFU.
And you revealed a lot about yourself. After reading a few of your rape posts and other nonsensical blatherings, I now find myself unconsciously typing very slowing when responding to you. As if my typing like most verbal communication with you, requires a noticeably slower pace.
 
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brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
considering the OP thinks ivermectin is an effective treatment for covid, this latest wall of text is just more meaningless psychobabble.

OP needs to learn to be concise and precise about what he wants to say. Brevity indicates reason and rational thought.
Oh, are we wanting to do a 20/20 hindsight on what did and didn't work with COVID?
 
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brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
1,223
126
Um, no. Federal law was protecting women from the states. That protection was removed. The federal law wasn't forcing anything on anyone. It seems you do not grasp fascism at all.
Which Federal law was removed?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,613
15,935
136
And you revealed a lot about yourself. After reading a few of your rape posts and other nonsensical blatherings, I now find myself unconsciously typing very slowing when responding to you. As if my typing like most verbal communication with you, requires a noticeably slower pace.
See its this relationship with the truth that is at the core of you issues. No matter how dire earth shattering the truth may be, it is the only thing that sets us free… Stop freebasing Q man..
 

Captante

Lifer
Oct 20, 2003
30,354
10,880
136
i gotta give you some advice

You don't actually HAVE too! ;)

fhulo7804f081.jpg
 
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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,778
3,073
136
i need to add that, my own political compass includes many right-wing ideologies. I believe in a strong state, in social order, in harsh punishment, i believe in nationalism and propaganda, in putting our interests first.
I also want free weed, corporation taxes, accountability from police forces and politicians, i want clean water, social security, and i think it's inevitable that, if you give guns to people, they will shoot themselves and/or one another.

i listen to songs about partisans and rice workers uniting against the industrialists.

My mind is open to change. I remember this phrase that made me reconsider my stance on adoptions by gay couples - from memory, might have a few bugs.

"they say that a child needs both sexes as role models to grow up properly. But there's (many) children not being adopted right now, in orphanages, who have NO parents".

As a conservative who thinks gay couples are not good role models for children, SURELY it's better to have two dads than being stuck in a fucking orphanage. NO?

The truth, as pointed out by @Amused is that many people in this modern age aren't "left wing" or "right wing". Many are just marginally to one side or the other, while trying to be realistic about what's needed in life. Sure, when you ask an untrained person about "what should we do with this very complex social problem" they may tend to spout out one of a half-dozen badly thought out answers, which then puts them in the left-right field, but most sane people won't go to war because of their opinions on economics or social structure.

We haven't got anymore of those 1950 factory workers who could not write, and who thought that bombing the factory was the way to freedom. I don't identify with the gender-queer when they say that math is racist "because we're both left wing" and i don't think that wanting to stop illegal immigration equates with wanting to kill the homeless.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,876
6,784
126
i gotta, give you some advice. It's gonna be criticism, but i mean it in a good way.

1. your english is bad. Know this and own it, and take it into consideration where writing something of this size.

Let's look at what you actually wrote:
Section A)
Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority on a left leaning forum is a tyrany properly to be seen as a vulgarity and to be dreaded, acting as it does through the authoritative assumption of its posters. But reflecting persons perceived that when a forum's majority is itself the tyrant collectively, over the separate individuals who post in it, its means of tyrannising are not restricted to the acts which it may do via the quality of posts therein by political pundits.

Now, the same paragraph, but broken down so we can understand it - assuming at this time that this is a properly constructed phrase.

Like other tyrannies
implies that the paragraph will describe a state of tyranny.
the tyranny of the majority
self-explanatory; tyranny because numbers.
on a left leaning forum
many left-leaners as per above
properly to be seen as a vulgarity and to be dreaded
the previously described tyranny of numbers is bad
acting as it does
particle
through the authoritative assumption of its posters.
bad phrase with multiple possible interpretations; i will have to guess he means "left-learners impose themselves because they feel safety in numbers".

But reflecting persons
OP means himself - he is a "reflecting person" e.g. he smart
perceived that
particle
when a forum's majority is itself the tyrant collectively
when in a forum there is a strong majority
over the separate individuals who post in it
redundant
its means of tyrannising
unspecified - likely tied to the above "safety in numbers", otherwise majority imposing itself
are not restricted to
particle
the acts which it may do via
particle - try to avoid stringing multiple particles together ..
the quality of posts therein by political pundits.
implies the majority has accesss to tyrannical tools outside just posting individually.

This^ garbage, re-written in actual english, is
When there's a outstanding majority of left-leaners in a forum, their safety in numbers allows them a dominance which can't be attributed to their individual posts alone.

There. Fixed.
It's like you're trying to write poetry, but absolutely suck at your own language_of_choice. Don't. Just write what you need.

2. As a love of rhetoric, yours is bad. On several levels. It's so bad, i have a hard time deciding which one of your faults is worse; that you undermine your own arguments, that you fail to capture the interest of your audience, or that you cannot make a point.

Section B)
can be summarized by this phrase:
Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the majority's opinion is not enough. There needs to be protection also against the tyranny of that prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of forum members to impose, by other means than social stigmatization, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them.

You ask - forgive me if i am mistaken - for a safe space. Protection from being marginalised.

If someone had the courage to stick with you until now, they would read this as you crying because the bad forum has made you cry. They gang up on you and your dumb ideas are as important as everyone else's actual facts and they need to be protected. You go on to make it seem as if everyone calling a spade a spade is the equivalent of a real life orphan-crushing machine.

This frankly is a horrible argument, but i respect your freedom to be wrong in any way you choose, and if this is the hill you want to die on, it's your right. Know that you will be sharing your resting ground with many a blue-haired liberal, and frankly, i'd be happier for you if you decided to walk it back.

Section C)
Here essentially you are trying to abstract yourself from the conversation which yourself have created; oh but WHO will make the rules? WHO to judge tyranny ?
This doesn't make you look any better, it make you look as if your discontent can't even be attributed to anything, but you are generally waving your arms at "all of this", which in turn makes any solidarity with your initial argument impossible. We get it that you are looking for someone to blame, BUT WHO ?

Section D)
I have to say, i have likely never, in my life, read such a concentration of useless fluff.
For those who haven't read it, it yet further attempts to abstract the writer from the initial accusations of bullying-by-numbers by expressing that .. i praphrase .. "the common man".. is "..justified by his own actions..", but makes no attempt at aceepting or criticizing this.
"People do as people do" is not really an argument.
I must guess that along the way, you lost "i am a genius that the common man doesn't understand" but then failed to actually write it into your wall of text.

As you will know, i have made the same argument myself more than once. Everyone who has read my film reviews knows that i love the "i'm just so much smarter than youze guyze" argument. When i make that argument, i take the responsibility that comes with arrogance, i don't try to drown it in fluff.

Section E)
Again, this actually reads like "humans bad", but if this was ever meant to work towards an argument that you had, the meaning is completely lost to your inability to communicate.
You need to speak with the purpose of being understood.

Please, do not take this as a statement to your genius, too sublime for the human mind. It's not. Not at all.


Conclusion:

Here is the takeaway of someone who would read what you wrote above, untangled from it's mess of bad outline, bad grammar, and generally poor command of the language.

I Am Moonbeam, i am crying because for years other humans have laughed at my stupidity, but i am just a human being and i want the freedom to be stupid, please protect me from myself.

Don't do this. There is nothing for you to be gained.

In order to avoid a long and somewhat irrelevant rebuttal of your posts I have decided to give you a second draft, one specifically directed to the dangers of the tyranny of the majority more generally and not with reference to this form. Hopefully it will address your concern:

Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant—society collectively, over the separate individuals who compose it—its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough: there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development, and, if possible, prevent the formation, of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence: and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs, as protection against political despotism.

But though this proposition is not likely to be contested in general terms, the practical question, where to place the limit—how to make the fitting adjustment between individual independence and social control—is a subject on which nearly everything remains to be done. All that makes existence valuable to any one, depends on the enforcement of restraints upon the actions of other people. Some rules of conduct, therefore, must be imposed, by law in the first place, and by opinion on many things which are not fit subjects for the operation of law. What these rules should be, is the principal question in human affairs; but if we except a few of the most obvious cases, it is one of those which least progress has been made in resolving. No two ages, and scarcely any two countries, have decided it alike; and the decision of one age or country is a wonder to another. Yet the people of any given age and country no more suspect any difficulty in it, than if it were a subject on which mankind had always been agreed. The rules which obtain among themselves appear to them self-evident and self-justifying. This all but universal illusion is one of the examples of the magical influence of custom, which is not only, as the proverb says, a second nature, but is continually mistaken for the first. The effect of custom, in preventing any misgiving respecting the rules of conduct which mankind impose on one another, is all the more complete because the subject is one on which it is not generally considered necessary that reasons should be given, either by one person to others, or by each to himself. People are accustomed to believe, and have been encouraged in the belief by some who aspire to the character of philosophers, that their feelings, on subjects of this nature, are better than reasons, and render reasons unnecessary. The practical principle which guides them to their opinions on the regulation of human conduct, is the feeling in each person’s mind that everybody should be required to act as he, and those with whom he sympathizes, would like them to act. No one, indeed, acknowledges to himself that his standard of judgment is his own liking; but an opinion on a point of conduct, not supported by reasons, can only count as one person’s preference; and if the reasons, when given, are a mere appeal to a similar preference felt by other people, it is still only many people’s liking instead of one. To an ordinary man, however, his own preference, thus supported, is not only a perfectly satisfactory reason, but the only one he generally has for any of his notions of morality, taste, or propriety, which are not expressly written in his religious creed; and his chief guide in the interpretation even of that. Men’s opinions, accordingly, on what is laudable or blameable, are affected by all the multifarious causes which influence their wishes in regard to the conduct of others, and which are as numerous as those which determine their wishes on any other subject. Sometimes their reason—at other times their prejudices or superstitions: often their social affections, not seldom their antisocial ones, their envy or jealousy, their arrogance or contemptuousness: but most commonly, their desires or fears for themselves—their legitimate or illegitimate self-interest. Wherever there is an ascendant class, a large portion of the morality of the country emanates from its class interests, and its feelings of class superiority. The morality between Spartans and Helots, between planters and negroes, between princes and subjects, between nobles and roturiers, between men and women, has been for the most part the creation of these class interests and feelings: and the sentiments thus generated, react in turn upon the moral feelings of the members of the ascendant class, in their relations among themselves. Where, on the other hand, a class, formerly ascendant, has lost its ascendancy, or where its ascendancy is unpopular, the prevailing moral sentiments frequently bear the impress of an impatient dislike of superiority. Another grand determining principle of the rules of conduct, both in act and forbearance, which have been enforced by law or opinion, has been the servility of mankind towards the supposed preferences or aversions of their temporal masters, or of their gods. This servility, though essentially selfish, is not hypocrisy; it gives rise to perfectly genuine sentiments of abhorrence; it made men burn magicians and heretics. Among so many baser influences, the general and obvious interests of society have of course had a share, and a large one, in the direction of the moral sentiments: less, however, as a matter of reason, and on their own account, than as a consequence of the sympathies and antipathies which grew out of them: and sympathies and antipathies which had little or nothing to do with the interests of society, have made themselves felt in the establishment of moralities with quite as great force.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
20,068
7,170
136
The OP wasn't completely confounding to me, not nearly so much as some of Moon's past threads/posts. While in my opinion it over-generalized and bordered on bothsidesism, it didn't sink too deep into psychoanalysis and reasoning for people's mentalities as he tends to do.

This is definitely a left-leaning forum, at least the P&N forum is. I think that's indisputable. And I can't entirely disagree with the notion of the forum being full of groupthink and "mob mentality" when the attacks start flying on certain posters. I get it.

What I see here for the most part though, in my opinion, is not that people are attacked for differing opinions, as 'they' would claim. If people put forth objectively factual and reasonable arguments, they are far more likely to get factual, reasonable debate without insults. But that is not what I see happening here most of the time.

Now, I would state that the minority of right-leaning posters here that continually misrepresent or outright lie about topics, are essentially written off by others (admittedly myself included). This affects how they react and interact with who they see as posters who don't approach most of the topics here in good faith. This leads to derision just about every time they post in any thread, on any topic.

I'm conscious of the fact that I do this myself, despite my own self-realization of such, and attempts to avoid it. But while I try to remain logical and reasonable, I'm also an emotional person with deep passions and shallow patience. That doesn't mean that I am not willing to listen to other opinions and stances, and participate in civil discourse and debate. I just don't like dishonesty, and it isn't because I am dishonest that I lash out at those who are not.

Just one example of the point I'm trying to convey:

There is a reason that people get "ganged upon" by the majority here.

Personally I think it is far more interesting to debate with someone who sees the world differently than me, but when someone flat out ignore or lie about what has happened, the debate ends. I don't (as far as I remember) attack anyone personally, because what would anyone gain from that. This is a just an internet forum used for R&R, so obviously there will be persons who posts stupid things, and these I just ignore.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,778
3,073
136
In order to avoid a long and somewhat irrelevant rebuttal of your posts I have decided to give you a second draft, one specifically directed to the dangers of the tyranny of the majority more generally and not with reference to this form. Hopefully it will address your concern:

Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant—society collectively, over the separate individuals who compose it—its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough: there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development, and, if possible, prevent the formation, of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence: and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs, as protection against political despotism.

But though this proposition is not likely to be contested in general terms, the practical question, where to place the limit—how to make the fitting adjustment between individual independence and social control—is a subject on which nearly everything remains to be done. All that makes existence valuable to any one, depends on the enforcement of restraints upon the actions of other people. Some rules of conduct, therefore, must be imposed, by law in the first place, and by opinion on many things which are not fit subjects for the operation of law. What these rules should be, is the principal question in human affairs; but if we except a few of the most obvious cases, it is one of those which least progress has been made in resolving. No two ages, and scarcely any two countries, have decided it alike; and the decision of one age or country is a wonder to another. Yet the people of any given age and country no more suspect any difficulty in it, than if it were a subject on which mankind had always been agreed. The rules which obtain among themselves appear to them self-evident and self-justifying. This all but universal illusion is one of the examples of the magical influence of custom, which is not only, as the proverb says, a second nature, but is continually mistaken for the first. The effect of custom, in preventing any misgiving respecting the rules of conduct which mankind impose on one another, is all the more complete because the subject is one on which it is not generally considered necessary that reasons should be given, either by one person to others, or by each to himself. People are accustomed to believe, and have been encouraged in the belief by some who aspire to the character of philosophers, that their feelings, on subjects of this nature, are better than reasons, and render reasons unnecessary. The practical principle which guides them to their opinions on the regulation of human conduct, is the feeling in each person’s mind that everybody should be required to act as he, and those with whom he sympathizes, would like them to act. No one, indeed, acknowledges to himself that his standard of judgment is his own liking; but an opinion on a point of conduct, not supported by reasons, can only count as one person’s preference; and if the reasons, when given, are a mere appeal to a similar preference felt by other people, it is still only many people’s liking instead of one. To an ordinary man, however, his own preference, thus supported, is not only a perfectly satisfactory reason, but the only one he generally has for any of his notions of morality, taste, or propriety, which are not expressly written in his religious creed; and his chief guide in the interpretation even of that. Men’s opinions, accordingly, on what is laudable or blameable, are affected by all the multifarious causes which influence their wishes in regard to the conduct of others, and which are as numerous as those which determine their wishes on any other subject. Sometimes their reason—at other times their prejudices or superstitions: often their social affections, not seldom their antisocial ones, their envy or jealousy, their arrogance or contemptuousness: but most commonly, their desires or fears for themselves—their legitimate or illegitimate self-interest. Wherever there is an ascendant class, a large portion of the morality of the country emanates from its class interests, and its feelings of class superiority. The morality between Spartans and Helots, between planters and negroes, between princes and subjects, between nobles and roturiers, between men and women, has been for the most part the creation of these class interests and feelings: and the sentiments thus generated, react in turn upon the moral feelings of the members of the ascendant class, in their relations among themselves. Where, on the other hand, a class, formerly ascendant, has lost its ascendancy, or where its ascendancy is unpopular, the prevailing moral sentiments frequently bear the impress of an impatient dislike of superiority. Another grand determining principle of the rules of conduct, both in act and forbearance, which have been enforced by law or opinion, has been the servility of mankind towards the supposed preferences or aversions of their temporal masters, or of their gods. This servility, though essentially selfish, is not hypocrisy; it gives rise to perfectly genuine sentiments of abhorrence; it made men burn magicians and heretics. Among so many baser influences, the general and obvious interests of society have of course had a share, and a large one, in the direction of the moral sentiments: less, however, as a matter of reason, and on their own account, than as a consequence of the sympathies and antipathies which grew out of them: and sympathies and antipathies which had little or nothing to do with the interests of society, have made themselves felt in the establishment of moralities with quite as great force.
omg dude can you build a sentence.

Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority [was at first, and is still vulgarly], held in dread, chiefly as A OBJECT operating through the acts of the public authorities.

reconstructed
The tyranny of the majority [was and still is held in dread], chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities.
I can't really change the second bit because "chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities" doesn't mean anything in English.

Did you mean to say, The tyranny of the majority chiefly manifests through the acts of (the) public authorities. ?

My post that you allegedly believe irrelevant as to not needing a rebuttal (see, how you build sentences in English?) was actually pointing out that, it doesn't really help your case when you try to write like it's Julius Caesar, yet cannot string a sentence together in your own language.



The point, Moonbeam, is that we read it. Some went in deeper, some left early, but we pretty much all caught the jist of it, which is
"There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence", OR
"you guys stop telling me i'm wrong".

You are calling for the majority to stop telling you how fucking dumb you are. It ain't gonna happen. Being A HUMAN BEING doesn't automatically come with a free token for justifying your ideas. If you want to be right, BE RIGHT.
If you are wrong, we can only point out that you are wrong.
 
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biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
20,068
7,170
136
You are calling for the majority to stop telling you how fucking dumb you are. It ain't gonna happen. Being A HUMAN BEING doesn't automatically come with a free token for justifying your ideas. If you want to be right, BE RIGHT.
If you are wrong, we can only point out that you are wrong.

 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,876
6,784
126
omg dude can you build a sentence.

Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority [was at first, and is still vulgarly], held in dread, chiefly as A OBJECT operating through the acts of the public authorities.

reconstructed
The tyranny of the majority [was and still is held in dread], chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities.
I can't really change the second bit because "chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities" doesn't mean anything in English.

Did you mean to say, The tyranny of the majority chiefly manifests through the acts of (the) public authorities. ?

My post that you allegedly believe irrelevant as to not needing a rebuttal (see, how you build sentences in English?) was actually pointing out that, it doesn't really help your case when you try to write like it's Julius Caesar, yet cannot string a sentence together in their own language.



The point, Moonbeam, is that we read it. Some went in deeper, some left early, but we pretty much all caught the jist of it, which is
"There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence", OR
"you guys stop telling me i'm wrong".

You are calling for the majority to stop telling you how fucking dumb you are. It ain't gonna happen. Being A HUMAN BEING doesn't automatically come with a free token for justifying your ideas. If you want to be right, BE RIGHT.
If you are wrong, we can only point out that you are wrong.
Still not happy I see.

How about instead of, "Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant—society collectively, over the separate individuals who compose it—its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries.", we change it to: A fact about tyrannies in general, the tyranny of the majority included, is that they were from the first regarded by ordinary people as frighteningly negative chiefly when expressed as actions of the power holders of society. But for anyone willing to look deeper, it can be seen that society itself, and not just the public authorities, can function as tyrannical and specifically over societies individuals.

The reason that I did not find a rebuttal relevant was that I had already made it clear that I did not write the post you had trouble with grammatically etc except for some minor changes so gave you the pure original to see if you still felt the same and which it seems you did.

Now the two paragraphs that I quoted I chose because they are points I have made over and over but over which I am attacked in all sorts of ways for making, so I decided to make the same points but made by a rank genius and someone of world wide respect. I did so to demonstrate the tyranny of the majority in action, the automatic assumption that anything I say is basically absurd and generally speaking not worth reading, psychobabble, you name it, and all because I say that people on the left are losing their capacity to reason due to the stress and fear they have of conservatives. Instead of rational liberals we see a pack of snapping cornered dogs or a bunch of Trump supporters.

Consider the possibility that instead of me complaining about people treating me badly and wanting them to stop, I am trying to warn others that our facile capacity to attribute negative intent to others may be a projection of our own fear and that we create what we fear. Good luck.

Here's the essay if you want to get out your red pencil: https://www.econlib.org/library/Mill/mlLbty.html

I took paragraph 5 and 6 I believe.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,876
6,784
126
The problem is that you think you are John Stuart Mill
As to your "trying to warn others that our facile capacity to attribute negative intent to others ", we're fine, thank you.
New goal posts. Great. Ignorance is bliss.
 
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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
14,778
3,073
136
New goal posts. Great. Ignorance is bliss.
Since you like to compare yourself to the great John Stuart Mill - on half a pint of shandy - was particularly ill
Pray, explain how your being in the implied minority has any intrinsic value. Because, in your deranged rating, you are implying that it does. That somehow, despite oppressive numbers of otherwise unrelated, unorganised dissenters oppressing your genius by being unfathomably wrong, YOU, the greatest enlightened mind of the 1800s are right.

The truth bro is that you're full of shit, and can't accept it.

I don't hate you, Moonbeam. If i hated you, i would do this:Capture.PNG