Fanatical Meat
Lifer
- Feb 4, 2009
- 34,580
- 15,795
- 136
I like you as a poster.
But paragraphs my man, paragraphs!
To much information, my brain is to stupid to chew through all that at once.
-feels very sugness and self pride-
ps: we can always just log off, nobody is trapped here
I am especially interested in the process of the development of self awareness via exposure to experiences that reveal truths about the nature of the assumptions we project onto others, and in particular regarding our hidden judgmentalism both individually and culturally. I believe the assumptions we form about others and ourselves result in the phenomenon that might be referred to as 'looking through a glass darkly'. ( See https://catholicexchange.com/through-a-glass-darkly-the-deep-theology-behind-pauls-phrase/ for an understanding of what I refer to here. Substitute reality for God if a religious interpretation is something you can't handle. ) But what can you communicate via commonality of expression to those without a basic education. (Don't be offended, Got that from a very popular personality on this forum, Niel deGrasse Tyson) It would be like discussing plate tectonics with people who believe God created the world 6000 years ago. The ideas contained in the metaphor about a darkened mirror the concepts of paradox and enigma are of value only to those who seek understanding and are irrelevant to those who assume they already know.
So I thought to myself, what if I were to express some of the concerns I have about the tendency of majority opinion vital to any democratic system to find expression, to harden into a reluctance to hear any voice but its own, but in a different way than I usually do. While this is a universal problem to any democratic system of government, it also applies in the microcosm. As above so below says Hermes Trismegistic. ( See here for some understanding of what that means: https://www.themystica.com/as-above-so-below/ )
So I decided to quote from John Stewart Mill's Essay On Liberty, changing a few words here and there to refer to this forum, as well as punctuation I do not use choosing two paragraphs leaving them in the original size knowing full well the excitement that would cause. As you may or may not know, Mill was a towering intellect, a liberal's liberal, and a seminal thinker on the issues of tyranny and liberty, forming a foundational understanding of both.
Personally I rejected Mills libertarian utilitarianism as a teenager believing then that all attempts to establish any notion of truth are merely rationalizations of such fundamental complexity of thought as to exhaust the capacity of neurons to create new links any farther. A brain that has exhausted its capacity to anything further is a satisfied brain happy with what it's achieved. You can achieve a similar effect via marathon running. You can chant a mantra, lay on a bed of nails or pray.
But the job of the authoritarian is to keep any insight into the nature of self far far away.
So I thought to myself, what if I were to express some of the concerns I have about the tendency of majority opinion vital to any democratic system to find expression, to harden into a reluctance to hear any voice but its own, but in a different way than I usually do. While this is a universal problem to any democratic system of government, it also applies in the microcosm. As above so below says Hermes Trismegistic. ( See here for some understanding of what that means: https://www.themystica.com/as-above-so-below/ )
So I decided to quote from John Stewart Mill's Essay On Liberty, changing a few words here and there to refer to this forum, as well as punctuation I do not use choosing two paragraphs leaving them in the original size knowing full well the excitement that would cause. As you may or may not know, Mill was a towering intellect, a liberal's liberal, and a seminal thinker on the issues of tyranny and liberty, forming a foundational understanding of both.
John Stuart Mill IQ Score: 200 | Celebrity IQs
John Stuart Mill IQ Score: 200 | Celebrity IQs
www.celebrityiqs.com
Personally I rejected Mills libertarian utilitarianism as a teenager believing then that all attempts to establish any notion of truth are merely rationalizations of such fundamental complexity of thought as to exhaust the capacity of neurons to create new links any farther. A brain that has exhausted its capacity to anything further is a satisfied brain happy with what it's achieved. You can achieve a similar effect via marathon running. You can chant a mantra, lay on a bed of nails or pray.
But the job of the authoritarian is to keep any insight into the nature of self far far away.
biostud
Lifer
- Feb 27, 2003
- 18,251
- 4,765
- 136
First ask yourself why even bother posting here: self flagalation, trying to convince some of your politicals views, boredom, trolling, curiosity, elightenment,....?
Personally it is a mix of boredom and trying to understand wtf is going on in your country.
I don't know how you would describe yourself politically, conservative, republican or whatever, but as an outsider to your country it just seems that a large part of the republican party is taking a huge shit on the core values that make United states "the greatest" democracy in the world.
It is difficult for me to understand how you can function as a democracy with the election system you have, as it favors only two parties. Here in Denmark we're going to have 15 different (or maybe not all that different) parties to vote for at our next national election, which even by danish standards is a bit extreme.
My point being, even if it is a bit incoherent, is that it is easier here to move to or create a new party if your old one is not doing the right thing. In your system and as a republican you have to stay loyal to the team, even when a fascist psycopath is wrecking havok, because if you don't youy loose everything. I don't know much about what policies the Trump administration made when he was in power, maybe he did things you agree on. No problem. The problem is that he believes to be above the law, that it does not apply to him. And if there is something I would believe to be a core republican value, then it would be that no-one is above the law, and least of all those who wield any power. But maýbe I'm wrong on that point? And with all the talk of family values I simply cannot understand why he can be the leader of the republican party.
So, what would happen in Denmark is, that the Rep. would split in two parties, each continuing in the parliament, and it would be so much easier to seperate the Trumpist conservatives from the "normal" conservatives, and the same thing would probably happen to the democratic party and then you would actually be able to find agreements across the isle and split the extremist from both parties away, to the greater good of most Americans. But alas that is never going to happen.
But then let me ask you
What do you believe to be the greatest challenge for the US society?
What do you believe to be the greatest challenge for the republican party?
What do you believe to be the greatest challenge for the democratic party?
We treat others as vermin if they threaten our world view, just as every Stockholm victim becomes the perp in the next iteration. Don't want to face unpleasant truths about yourself, accept the fact you will never really know anything. As above so below: Our politics is who we are. If we don't understand ourselves how will we understand politics? If we do not understand ourselves we will have to seek self understanding and that's not going to happen because while we don't know ourselves we also can't listen to anybody with a different opinion to offer. We were conditioned to fear being heretical which translates into a hatred of anything different. This is a prison of fear. We project that fear out there in the form of ridicule contempt and hate. Then we wonder, gee what a silly idea is is that I don't want to know who I am. Of course I know who I am a dedicated and worthy believer in whatever lunacy my Stockholm Syndrome forced me to believe. Look at how wonderful I am.
.
cytg111
Lifer
- Mar 17, 2008
- 23,220
- 12,861
- 136
And this poster is unable to contemplate that the majority here already leveled up through those points and is looking at him like barking up the wrong fucking tree. His self reflection would shatter if he realized that it is not on us to self realize but indeed it is himself.
Meh.
Meh.
I can't answer your questions. All I can do is try to offer you some sense of my opinion.First ask yourself why even bother posting here: self flagalation, trying to convince some of your politicals views, boredom, trolling, curiosity, elightenment,....?
Personally it is a mix of boredom and trying to understand wtf is going on in your country.
I don't know how you would describe yourself politically, conservative, republican or whatever, but as an outsider to your country it just seems that a large part of the republican party is taking a huge shit on the core values that make United states "the greatest" democracy in the world.
It is difficult for me to understand how you can function as a democracy with the election system you have, as it favors only two parties. Here in Denmark we're going to have 15 different (or maybe not all that different) parties to vote for at our next national election, which even by danish standards is a bit extreme.
My point being, even if it is a bit incoherent, is that it is easier here to move to or create a new party if your old one is not doing the right thing. In your system and as a republican you have to stay loyal to the team, even when a fascist psycopath is wrecking havok, because if you don't youy loose everything. I don't know much about what policies the Trump administration made when he was in power, maybe he did things you agree on. No problem. The problem is that he believes to be above the law, that it does not apply to him. And if there is something I would believe to be a core republican value, then it would be that no-one is above the law, and least of all those who wield any power. But maýbe I'm wrong on that point? And with all the talk of family values I simply cannot understand why he can be the leader of the republican party.
So, what would happen in Denmark is, that the Rep. would split in two parties, each continuing in the parliament, and it would be so much easier to seperate the Trumpist conservatives from the "normal" conservatives, and the same thing would probably happen to the democratic party and then you would actually be able to find agreements across the isle and split the extremist from both parties away, to the greater good of most Americans. But alas that is never going to happen.
But then let me ask you
What do you believe to be the greatest challenge for the US society?
What do you believe to be the greatest challenge for the republican party?
What do you believe to be the greatest challenge for the democratic party?
I believe the the greatest challenge for US Society is internal fracturing based on partisan contempt. The challenge is how to deal with it.
I think the greatest challenge to the Republican party is how to hold onto power and enforce a world view that rightfully should go extinct. Fascism seen to be the item of choice on their menu.
I believe the greatest challenge to the Democratic Party is how to confront the profound danger the Republican Party has become without allowing our fears turn us into them.
Mystically that can be represented by the law of 3, the collapse of paradox at a inclusive level of understanding, the principles of affirmation, denial and reconciliation that lead to the collapse of duality and an understanding of the unity of all things. These secrets have been transmitted and hidden within society for a very long time. We see traces of it in Masonry.
In a two party system we face the threat of the tyranny of the majority. Personally, in Israel i think we see the tyranny that can be wielded by a tie breaking religious party. In the US the religious right is given enough bones by the Republicans to pass their real goals, rule by the corporate elites. Our need for money to campaign gives them lots of leverage over the political left here as well in my opinion.
At any rate, I see no real answers that does not depend on a citizenry that is at least half way a awake. To that end I do what I think could help and rejoice in all the love and respect it brings me.
I'm one of those on the left that would welcome significant nationalization of industry so long as only Mothers were put in charge for at least the next few generations.
Wall of text hits you for 7,084.Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority on a left leaning forum is a tyrany properly to be seen as a vulgarity and to be dreaded, acting as it does through the authoritative assumption of its posters. But reflecting persons perceived that when a forum's majority is itself the tyrant collectively, over the separate individuals who post in it, its means of tyrannising are not restricted to the acts which it may do via the quality of posts therein by political pundits. A virtual society can and does execute its own mandates: and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practises a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the majority opinion is not enough: there needs protection also against the tyranny of that prevailing opinion and feeling; against the tendency of forum members to impose, by other means than social stigmatization, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development, and, if possible, prevent the formation, of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence: and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs, as protection against political despotism.
But though this proposition, one might hope, is not likely to be contested in general terms, the practical question, where to place the limit, how to make the fitting adjustment between individual independence and social control, is a subject on which nearly everything remains to be done. All that makes existence valuable to anyone, depends on the enforcement of restraints upon the actions of other people. Some rules of conduct, therefore, must be imposed, by law in the first place, and by opinion on many things which are not fit subjects for the operation of law. What these rules should be, is the principal question in human affairs; but if we except a few of the most obvious cases, it is one of those which least progress has been made in resolving. No two ages, and scarcely any two countries, much less political forums have decided it alike; and the decision of one age or country is a wonder to another. Yet the people of any given age and country no more suspect any difficulty in it, than if it were a subject on which mankind had always been agreed. The rules which obtain among themselves appear to them self-evident and self-justifying. This all but universal illusion is one of the examples of the magical influence of customary forum decorum which is not only, as the proverb says, a second nature, but is continually mistaken for the first. The effect of custom, in preventing any misgiving respecting the rules of conduct which mankind impose on one another, is all the more complete because the subject is one on which it is not generally considered necessary that reasons should be given, either by one person to others, or by each to himself. People are accustomed to believe, and have been encouraged in the belief by some who aspire to the character of philosophers, that their feelings, on subjects of this nature, are better than reasons, and render reasons unnecessary. The practical principle which guides them to their opinions on the regulation of human conduct, is the feeling in each person's mind that everybody should be required to act as he, and those with whom he sympathises, would like them to act. No one, indeed, acknowledges to himself that his standard of judgment is his own liking; but an opinion on a point of conduct, not supported by reasons, can only count as one person's preference; and if the reasons, when given, are a mere appeal to a similar preference felt by other people, it is still only many people's liking instead of one. To an ordinary man, however, his own preference, thus supported, is not only a perfectly satisfactory reason, but the only one he generally has for any of his notions of morality, taste, or propriety, which are not expressly written in whaever creed to which he or she may aspire; and his chief guide in the interpretation even of that. Men's opinions, accordingly, on what is laudable or blamable, are affected by all the multifarious causes which influence their wishes in regard to the conduct of others, and which are as numerous as those which determine their wishes on any other subject. Sometimes their reason, at other times their prejudices or superstitions: often their social affections, not seldom their anti-social ones, their envy or jealousy, their arrogance or contemptuousness: but most commonly, their desires or fears for themselves, their legitimate or illegitimate self-interest. Wherever there is an ascendant class, a large portion of the morality of the country emanates from its class interests, and its feelings of class superiority. The morality between Spartans and Helots, between slave owners and Blacks, between princes and subjects, between nobles and roturiers, between men and women, has been for the most part the creation of these class interests and feelings: and the sentiments thus generated, react in turn upon the moral feelings of the members of the ascendant class, in their relations among themselves. Where, on the other hand, a class, formerly ascendant, has lost its ascendancy, or where its ascendancy is unpopular, the prevailing moral sentiments frequently bear the impress of an impatient dislike of superiority. Another grand determining principle of the rules of conduct, both in act and forbearance, which have been enforced by law or opinion, has been the servility of mankind towards the supposed preferences or aversions of their temporal masters, or of their gods. This servility, though essentially selfish, is not hypocrisy; it gives rise to perfectly genuine sentiments of abhorrence; it made men burn magicians and heretics. Among so many baser influences, the general and obvious interests of society have of course had a share, and a large one, in the direction of the moral sentiments: less, however, as a matter of reason, and on their own account, than as a consequence of the sympathies and antipathies which grew out of them: and sympathies and antipathies which had little or nothing to do with the interests of society, have made themselves felt in the establishment of moralities with quite as great force.
A heads up on this matter, I suspect, will have little effect. Most of the capacity for serious mentation tire the brain of the average forum dweller after a few words. TLDR and, of course, delivered with great sugness and self pride.
Edit: Smugness and Self Pride as I am sure you realized.
You die.
As you accuse others of making assumptions and projecting. The average forum dweller knows how to filter things out to not waste their time and rightfully can't be bothered to parse out something that looks like a transcript of a conversation with Jordan Peterson - supremely verbose without ever making a point.A heads up on this matter, I suspect, will have little effect. Most of the capacity for serious mentation tire the brain of the average forum dweller after a few words. TLDR and, of course, delivered with great sugness and self pride.
OT much? What does that have to do with you feeling like you get singled out in this forum? Because that's the original issue right there in the title, which you have yet to address.I can't answer your questions. All I can do is try to offer you some sense of my opinion.
I believe the the greatest challenge for US Society is internal fracturing based on partisan contempt. The challenge is how to deal with it.
I think the greatest challenge to the Republican party is how to hold onto power and enforce a world view that rightfully should go extinct. Fascism seen to be the item of choice on their menu.
I believe the greatest challenge to the Democratic Party is how to confront the profound danger the Republican Party has become without allowing our fears turn us into them.
Mystically that can be represented by the law of 3, the collapse of paradox at a inclusive level of understanding, the principles of affirmation, denial and reconciliation that lead to the collapse of duality and an understanding of the unity of all things. These secrets have been transmitted and hidden within society for a very long time. We see traces of it in Masonry.
In a two party system we face the threat of the tyranny of the majority. Personally, in Israel i think we see the tyranny that can be wielded by a tie breaking religious party. In the US the religious right is given enough bones by the Republicans to pass their real goals, rule by the corporate elites. Our need for money to campaign gives them lots of leverage over the political left here as well in my opinion.
At any rate, I see no real answers that does not depend on a citizenry that is at least half way a awake. To that end I do what I think could help and rejoice in all the love and respect it brings me.
I'm one of those on the left that would welcome significant nationalization of industry so long as only Mothers were put in charge for at least the next few generations.
What would shatter? I offer only my opinions. Anybody's opinion can be wrong. All of the ones I once thougt of as sacred turned out to be completely wrong. Tough at the time but I got over it when I realized the benefits of discovery that I don't have any real need to be right. That knowingness thingi was a real bitch. I leveled down.
- Oct 10, 1999
- 30,885
- 12,391
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Lets keep it simple. Where did you get the idea my issue was that I felt singled out? Are you sure you aren't projecting how you might imagine yourself feeling were you the object of ridicule? I see the issue facing the US today as partisan fracturing, the condemnation of the difference we imagine and make up about 'the other'. I like on occasions to orchestrate some of my posts to trigger that response making it visible for all to see. Did you really imagine I was expecting a welcome mat and high fives for doing so? I have been living among the insane with awareness of that fact. Do you imagine I don't know how to hide when I want to.
Actually, some people can display profound stupidity in just a few words. You could try that out for yourself by saying I believe ivermectin cures Covid. This is just the exact same hysterical steryotyping based on other people's inuendo and lack of comprehensive reading skills that passes mass psychosis from one person to the next.
cytg111
Lifer
- Mar 17, 2008
- 23,220
- 12,861
- 136
Welcome to the club brother. And I am sorry you had a hard roundabout way to get here, none of that matters though now that you're actually here.
Success was not the point. That’s for people who have insecurity issues around failure. There is another world to the upside down one that thinking exists in. In the real world failure is victory because only ego can fail. You may not know you are a born winner. I guess that’s just your luck. But then, if you didn’t have bad luck, you wouldn’t have any, right?
KMFJD
Lifer
- Aug 11, 2005
- 29,197
- 42,324
- 136
Is this really a left leaning forum? America is stuck so far right that anything that helps alleviate peoples suffering is deemed bad by a good portion of the populace
biostud
Lifer
- Feb 27, 2003
- 18,251
- 4,765
- 136
By left I think he means anti fascist, anti conspiracy and anti fake news or basically not Trump supporters.
biostud
Lifer
- Feb 27, 2003
- 18,251
- 4,765
- 136
I can't answer your questions. All I can do is try to offer you some sense of my opinion.
I believe the the greatest challenge for US Society is internal fracturing based on partisan contempt. The challenge is how to deal with it.
I think the greatest challenge to the Republican party is how to hold onto power and enforce a world view that rightfully should go extinct. Fascism seen to be the item of choice on their menu.
I believe the greatest challenge to the Democratic Party is how to confront the profound danger the Republican Party has become without allowing our fears turn us into them.
Mystically that can be represented by the law of 3, the collapse of paradox at a inclusive level of understanding, the principles of affirmation, denial and reconciliation that lead to the collapse of duality and an understanding of the unity of all things. These secrets have been transmitted and hidden within society for a very long time. We see traces of it in Masonry.
In a two party system we face the threat of the tyranny of the majority. Personally, in Israel i think we see the tyranny that can be wielded by a tie breaking religious party. In the US the religious right is given enough bones by the Republicans to pass their real goals, rule by the corporate elites. Our need for money to campaign gives them lots of leverage over the political left here as well in my opinion.
At any rate, I see no real answers that does not depend on a citizenry that is at least half way a awake. To that end I do what I think could help and rejoice in all the love and respect it brings me.
I'm one of those on the left that would welcome significant nationalization of industry so long as only Mothers were put in charge for at least the next few generations.
Funding of your political parties definitely plays a part in the problem your facing. In Denmark each party who has a seat in the parliament gets quite lot of tax money to run their party, for the very reason that you should not have to rely on donations, and the ability to buy power. Obviously it has its own problems as well, and large donations can still be made.
Just a thought, but isn't the way things work in Canuckistan something that most of middle-class America would see as model society? They might not like how they made it work, but the end result is pretty good.
sdifox
No Lifer
- Sep 30, 2005
- 95,029
- 15,140
- 126
biostud
Lifer
- Feb 27, 2003
- 18,251
- 4,765
- 136
cytg111
Lifer
- Mar 17, 2008
- 23,220
- 12,861
- 136
There is money and power to be made off that narrative… Its about time the “radical left” begins to address Murdoch as Goebbels and Fox News as Goebbels News.They call us Commies
Even if US decided to change to a parliamentary system, won’t make a difference until they actually create viable 3rd parties. And how model is our society? The right wing nut jobs taking talking points from the MAGAtards down south. Yesterday our own QAnon quack lady ordered her moronic followers to arrest an entire police department for failure to arrest Trudeau for treason and other various violations related to covid restrictions. She remains away from the protest so she can’t be arrested. But unsure what 2 followers did beyond the others to get arrested though.
dank69
Lifer
- Oct 6, 2009
- 35,341
- 28,615
- 136
Party formation is the easy part. The only reason alternate parties flounder right now is because many people know they are doomed to fail in our current system.
Fanatical Meat
Lifer
- Feb 4, 2009
- 34,580
- 15,795
- 136
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