On the Espionage Act charges against Edward Snowden

[hans030390]

But that's a far cry from charging Snowden, who just turned 30 yesterday, with multiple felonies under the Espionage Act that will send him to prison for decades if not life upon conviction. In what conceivable sense are Snowden's actions "espionage"? He could have - but chose not - sold the information he had to a foreign intelligence service for vast sums of money, or covertly passed it to one of America's enemies, or worked at the direction of a foreign government. That is espionage. He did none of those things.

Pulling this quote in the OP to comment on it...But I do want to emphasize first that I don't think Snowden should be charged with espionage/treason.

Snowden might not have deliberately handed this information over to "the enemy," but he did deliberately hand the information to journalists knowing full well this information would become public on a global scale. "The enemy" can just as easily access this information as if Snowden had given it to them directly and deliberately. Only a shortsighted fool would not have realized this beforehand, and I don't take Snowden for a stupid person.

Now, given that he should have known full well "the enemy" would have easy access to the information he leaked, the law might actually have enough "branching-if" conditions to classify this as espionage, treason, etc. I am not saying there is...but based on my limited educational experience with US law, I could see such laws existing. It seems very common for laws to cover indirect acts and situations such as these. So, it's very possible that he could be legally classified as a traitor of some sort. Note that I did not say I would agree with the law if this were the actual case.

On a more personal note, I wasn't surprised at all when this information was leaked. I assumed that this surveilance, spying (whatever you want to call it) was already a very real possibility, leading me to think many criminals, terrorists, and other supposed "enemies" would assume the same thing (maybe not, though). I'm not even really sure how this information truly aids "the enemy."

 

[Fern]

We know Bush was spying. That's when all of the secret rooms at telcos started coming to light. The difference was that the American left already hated Bush, so their vitriol continued unabated. Now that it's a D in the big chair, we have opinions from the left ranging from disgust to mild annoyance, to schadenfreude, to full on support for these spy programs.

Yeah, now that I remember.

But back in the day we were sold FISA as a program spying on foreigners only (subject to a few limited exceptions). But somewhere along the line this MoFo turned into a full-blown spying program (now including everything digital) on Americans too.

I don't know when this happened. But if Bush did it too I'd like to know, because if he did he deserves a sh!t pile of criticism too.

Fern

 

[FelixDeCat]

Steve Wozniak: Snowden ‘Is a Hero'

Uno

Good read. I hope Obama is impeached soon for the good of America.

 

[BoberFett]

Good old Pelosi. She's always ready to get on her knees for Obama.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/06/...-defending-espionage-charges-against-snowden/

 

[MiniDoom]

...

 

[Attic]

What I never got is all these other countries riot and raise hell when their governments fuck up...Here we have our own government spying on us illegally, and have to potential to seriously ruin people's lives if they so chose to.

Tell me again why huge amounts of people aren't in the streets protesting and breaking shit?

It's because we bend over and take it as a collective people, and slowly but surely we will become accustomed to losing our rights.

I'm unsure how this has come to pass either. Bad sign for the country, great sign for those in power or benefiting from further centralization.

Truth is the enemy for our leaders. Truth is weak right now.

 

[5150Joker]

Ok lets put all the blame on Obama and say he sucks. Tell me something, what good have the last 2 Republican presidents done for the US? They (and their cohorts) were among the worst leaders the US has ever had. I'd take 100 Obama's over a single Bush any day. Snowden shouldn't have leaked sensitive national information to China and other countries, what he did is wrong and "whistleblower" protection shouldn't count for guys like him.

 

[Printer Bandit]

 

[EagleKeeper]

Ok lets put all the blame on Obama and say he sucks. Tell me something, what good have the last 2 Republican presidents done for the US? They (and their cohorts) were among the worst leaders the US has ever had. I'd take 100 Obama's over a single Bush any day. Snowden shouldn't have leaked sensitive national information to China and other countries, what he did is wrong and "whistleblower" protection shouldn't count for guys like him.

Did he give classified info to China or did he release information that the US government was doing illegal acts to the public at large.

Exposure to light vs handing over the lock box.

 

[5150Joker]

Is PRISM even illegal or is this just a case of feigned outrage? Since the Patriot Act and other measures like it, there should be no surprise that the US govt monitors the activity of citizens and especially foreigners.

 

[BoberFett]

Ok lets put all the blame on Obama and say he sucks. Tell me something, what good have the last 2 Republican presidents done for the US? They (and their cohorts) were among the worst leaders the US has ever had. I'd take 100 Obama's over a single Bush any day. Snowden shouldn't have leaked sensitive national information to China and other countries, what he did is wrong and "whistleblower" protection shouldn't count for guys like him.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Is PRISM even illegal or is this just a case of feigned outrage? Since the Patriot Act and other measures like it, there should be no surprise that the US govt monitors the activity of citizens and especially foreigners.

it is legal in the sense that it is within the established law.

it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

just because congress shoves a law through and makes something legal doesn't make it constitutional.

example: another mass shooting occurs and congress bans all firearms. the government would be promptly sued for infringing on the 2nd amendment.

with PRISM, FISA courts, etc...it's difficult/impossible to bring a lawsuit because any evidence which a plaintiff might obtain is quickly caught in the "secret, national security stuff" net. which is a bunch of bullshit. the legislative and executives branches have found a way in which to give themselves complete immunity from infringing on your rights.

 

[GrGr]

Let's not forget it is NORMAL that the US spies on everyone (according to the current US Secretary of State Kerry), but when China does it it is EVIL...

The US is without a doubt the world leader in hypocrisy and sick doublespeak/doublethink.

 

[cirrrocco]

Lates video of edward snowden that was recorded June 6 but released yesterday. He is very prescient about how the US govt would classify him.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2013/jul/08/edward-snowden-video-interview

Video

 

[RabidMongoose]

I think that it may be time to begin profiling of white men who are involved with government secrets and to charge them with violations of the espionage act very aggressively. Bradley Manning, Snowden, recently I read about another guy who sold information to the Soviets back in the day when he was 21...this is pretty alarming.

I read that Snowden actually donated to Ron Paul's campaign, which brings up possible racist issues as well.

 

[unokitty]

I think that it may be time to begin profiling of white men ...l.

"For most Stasi informers the prime motivation, the study found, was a belief in the Communist state's political ideology. Financial reward played only a minor role and blackmail was rare, it said.

The Stasi infiltrated nearly every aspect of life in the GDR. Its network of professional and civilian spies monitored and collected information on large swathes of the population." --Der Spiegel

Comrade,
What do you mean begin?

Uno

 

[Genx87]

Haha preserving our freedoms by crushing them. Like when a guy excercises his constitutional right to bear arms in "freedom" plaza and gets a swat team breaking down his door hours later.

Murrica

 

[justoh]

What's going on in this photo? He appears to be reading a german newspaper? And where is he?

 

[Patranus]

Its now up to any of us or Snowden to determine what is/is not constitutional.
It is not up to Snowden to determine what CLASSIFIED documents should be public knowledge.

Snowden leaked classified documents against America's interests which by definition is treason and he should pay for this crime.

 

[Genx87]

Its now up to any of us or Snowden to determine what is/is not constitutional.
It is not up to Snowden to determine what CLASSIFIED documents should be public knowledge.

Snowden leaked classified documents against America's interests which by definition is treason and he should pay for this crime.

Classified documents for the American people to see. Obama could and has done the same in the past. The only difference is Obama gets to clear his leaks of criminal wrongdoing before leaking them. What a system we have erected in our country.

 

[fskimospy]

Classified documents for the American people to see. Obama could and has done the same in the past. The only difference is Obama gets to clear his leaks of criminal wrongdoing before leaking them. What a system we have erected in our country.

Yes, the guy in charge of determining whether or not classified information is classified or released gets to clear people of wrongdoing when releasing information. A low level contract employee does not in fact get to determine whether or not classified information is classified or released. Thank god we don't have a system where he would.

Now if you want to talk about how the government abuses the classification system that's fine, (and I would likely substantially agree with you). There is simply no world in which someone like Snowden should be making that call though.

 

[BoberFett]

There is simply no world in which someone like Snowden should be making that call though.

When nobody at the top is making that call it falls down the chain of responsibility, morally speaking. What's legal and what's right are frequently two different things.

 

[fskimospy]

When nobody at the top is making that call it falls down the chain of responsibility, morally speaking. What's legal and what's right are frequently two different things.

Regardless of what you think is legal vs. what is right, structuring a system where low level analysts are making calls on classification is stupid.

 

[BoberFett]

Regardless of what you think is legal vs. what is right, structuring a system where low level analysts are making calls on classification is stupid.

"Well, Der Fuhrer says exterminating Jews is legal, so I guess we better do it. We're too low level to make that call." - Grenadier Weisskopf, 1942

Sorry to Godwin the thread, but morality trumps legality every time in my book, regardless of rank. The more immoral the act, the more important it is that low level people bring these things to light. High ranking officials are too culpable and therefore less likely to invite criticism to expose wrongdoing themselves.

 

[fskimospy]

"Well, Der Fuhrer says exterminating Jews is legal, so I guess we better do it. We're too low level to make that call." - Grenadier Weisskopf, 1942

Sorry to Godwin the thread, but morality trumps legality every time in my book, regardless of rank. The more immoral the act, the more important it is that low level people bring these things to light. High ranking officials are too culpable and therefore less likely to invite criticism to expose wrongdoing themselves.

/facepalm

I was talking about how you design a system, not the individual morality of a low level actor. Snowden did a really good thing by leaking data on the NSA, but leaking the data on the intergovernmental spying was dumb.