On Socialism and Nazis

[urvile]

forget about all the left wing hate groups roaming around committing real and violent acts against other races.

I suppose the advantage of being an idiot is you are to stupid to realise you are an idiot.

 

[1sikbITCH]

From response #3
Who is it that uses violence and intimidation against political opponents ? The left.

I remember the left forming a mob, burning torches and yelling JEWS GO HOME at Charlottesville. I remember 3 left wing nazis giving interviews at a white power rally and then shooting at protesters. I also remember the most recent white power rally when other left wing nazis beat up a white girl for dating a black man.

Yep always the left.

 

[woolfe9998]

At the time of Hitler's political activity, in the 1930s, socialism was sexy. Recognising this he cynically incorporated the word into the name of his party, hence the term National Socialism, which in turn gave rise to acronym, Nazi. In addition to this he took the red flag of socialism and stuck a swastika in the middle of it.

Stalin (the grotty bastard) perverted Marxism by turning it into a religion: replacing the imagery of the Russian Orthodox Church, with statues and icons of Marx, Engels and Lenin (deifying the latter). This, in his sick little mind, made any opposition to his interpretation of Marxism/Leninism, blasphemy. Remember, Stalin did spend four years studying to be a priest.

So, we have the two most revolting and prominent shits of the 20th century associated with the term Socialism, but in practice exhibited extreme right-wing tendencies, in my view.

I believe Socialism is a political philosophy that promotes economic and political equality through the fair distribution of wealth: 'to each, according to need, from each according to ability'. To some degree, or other, I think most people concur with this view, even the opponents of socialism.

The problem with the political left is that, although it has been universally uncompromising in its condemnation of Nazi Germany, many factions have either supported, or been apologists for, Stalinist Russia. Stalinism is now enjoying a renaissance in Russia, under Putin, and yet it is the far-right who are among his most fervent followers. This is cruel irony, given the tens of millions of Soviet citizens who died in World War 2.

I may have wondered off the point somewhat with relaying all this, but it may explain why conservatives try to associate anybody to their left with Stalinism and, to some degree, National Socialism, albeit disingenuously.

The fact is the political right are liars. They are not defending an ideology, they are defending a system that places the real power in the hands of a tiny, rich elite. They tolerate democracy because it gives the illusion of empowerment to the masses: if it ever threatened any real change they would move heaven and earth to subvert or abolish it. They would wreck an economy to bring the masses to their knees (he said remembering Thatcher). I could expand on this more, but I think I have made my point.

Welcome to P&N. Good post.

A couple corrections on your first paragraph. It would be more accurate to say that Hitler's "political activity" was in the 1920's. He was in power in the 30's. More importantly, the word "socialism" was added to the party name in 1920 over Hitler's objection. This point is non-trivial given the issues under debate here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

 

[zinfamous]

And now he is our president, and has been for almost a year now. The most we have seen is some rallies and limited violence. None of it good for sure, but nothing close to being a movement that is anywhere close to posing a threat to society.

Claiming him as their president has nothing to do with what I have said. I asked what are they waiting for in terms of what they want to do and why have they not done it.



Not sure what this has to do with anything that I have said. I am claiming that these people are very small and also unorganized, and, as such pose little threat to society. They do pose threats to individuals no doubt, but not to society as a whole right now.



I'm starting to wonder if you mean to reply to someone else. You highlighted part of what I said which was this...

"if Neo-Nazis are so violent and such a threat, then what are they waiting for?"

As of right now, out side of a few rallies that for the most part have been complete failures, nothing has been done. They are more relevant than they were pre-Trump, but by far not a bigger threat than most other things. Trump has been our president for almost a year, and we have had a few rallies and some limited violence. If Trump was what they were waiting for, then their plans seem very small. Unless, again, they are trying to build a base of support before they try more. Do you believe that?

This is why I don't think you read my response, exactly, because that was the point: They have been waiting for someone like Donald Trump to lead them which is why, as I mentioned, you haven't really seen much from these people in the last couple of decades.

They haven't been this active, certainly, even with a few rallies here and there, prior to Trump. It's only been 9 months. Obviously, the messaging from these groups is far different than it has been in the past, and they are specifically advertising themselves as young, modern, more directly political (they consider themselves right wing, conservative, if not mainstream republicans). This is different from previous white national movements, and it is all, quite obviously and well documented, a direct growth from the rise of media like Brietbart and the political base empowered specifically by Trump.

You asked what are they waiting for? I told you exactly what they are waiting for, and Trump is their guy. Your question does not require them to suddenly be successful in their violence--I mean, you act as if they didn't advertise their explicit intent to commit great violence ahead of Charlottesville...and of course that they actually murdered someone in Charlottseville, which is a strange omission on your part--this is exactly what they are waiting for. Perhaps we can all be thankful that the forces and the law that have so far risen against them can be credited for lessening their advertised desires for violence to this point?

maybe?

 

[zinfamous]

Um, the poll was if the media fabricates news about trump. That means about 20% of Dems think that the media is making up news stories about Trump.

what media? I think the data would actually be useful if we knew the specific questions, and if those polled were referencing specific outlets. If you asked me now, yeah: I'd say half of that media is fake, and it is 100% the rightwing agitprop/RT media that gave us Trump in the first place.

 

[brandonbull]

I agree, that extremism on either side of the spectrum eventually leads to authoritarianism. Yet this doesn't mean that there aren't differences. The point here is that some people on the right are claiming Nazism was somehow a left wing ideology, yet it wasn't. Fascism at it's core was anti-modernist, backward looking and anti-progressive. The problem is that modern American conservatives think their "small government" conservatism is what conservatism fundamentally is. But it's not. Historically, conservatism is traditionalism and a rejection of social change, with fascism being it's most extreme form. American conservatism is certainly that, but it has also incorporated a libertarian aspect which is a unique American variation of it.

I don't think people are claiming Nazism is left wing, but people claiming to be left wing are using tactics that mirror what the Nazis did.

 

[brandonbull]

And now he is our president, and has been for almost a year now. The most we have seen is some rallies and limited violence. None of it good for sure, but nothing close to being a movement that is anywhere close to posing a threat to society.

Claiming him as their president has nothing to do with what I have said. I asked what are they waiting for in terms of what they want to do and why have they not done it.



Not sure what this has to do with anything that I have said. I am claiming that these people are very small and also unorganized, and, as such pose little threat to society. They do pose threats to individuals no doubt, but not to society as a whole right now.



I'm starting to wonder if you mean to reply to someone else. You highlighted part of what I said which was this...

"if Neo-Nazis are so violent and such a threat, then what are they waiting for?"

As of right now, out side of a few rallies that for the most part have been complete failures, nothing has been done. They are more relevant than they were pre-Trump, but by far not a bigger threat than most other things. Trump has been our president for almost a year, and we have had a few rallies and some limited violence. If Trump was what they were waiting for, then their plans seem very small. Unless, again, they are trying to build a base of support before they try more. Do you believe that?

I've made the claims that these NeoNazi types are nothing and until 5 minutes ago and 99% of the population has never heard of them before. The Left has elevated these hate group baffoons to a status of importance in order to give the Left-wingers something to rally around and accuse anyone not 100% in lock step with them being a member of those hate groups. I remember some Mormon guy calling out the Russians a few years ago and the left saying the Russian were harmless. Now that the Dims need a boogyman in order to discredit Trump and his deplorables, the Russians are soooooooo evil now.

 

[zinfamous]

I've made the claims that these NeoNazi types are nothing and until 5 minutes ago and 99% of the population has never heard of them before. The Left has elevated these hate group baffoons to a status of importance in order to give the Left-wingers something to rally around and accuse anyone not 100% in lock step with them being a member of those hate groups. I remember some Mormon guy calling out the Russians a few years ago and the left saying the Russian were harmless. Now that the Dims need a boogyman in order to discredit Trump and his deplorables, the Russians are soooooooo evil now.

yep, the leftwingers called for them to start rallying, organized their facebook communities, and commanded them to murder counterprotesters...all to champion the causes of anti-american leftists.

...these are the things that you go to sleep thinking, every night. lol.

 

[J.Wilkins]

my short version.... Who gives a fuck? Nazis are Nazis no matter where they come from and Authoritarian anti-liberalists are no different... fascists rule the extremes of both sides and are pretty much the same.

Here's a tip, don't fucking embrace them on either side because if you do, you're now a spokesperson for fascism.

 

[realibrad]

This is why I don't think you read my response, exactly, because that was the point: They have been waiting for someone like Donald Trump to lead them which is why, as I mentioned, you haven't really seen much from these people in the last couple of decades.

They haven't been this active, certainly, even with a few rallies here and there, prior to Trump. It's only been 9 months. Obviously, the messaging from these groups is far different than it has been in the past, and they are specifically advertising themselves as young, modern, more directly political (they consider themselves right wing, conservative, if not mainstream republicans). This is different from previous white national movements, and it is all, quite obviously and well documented, a direct growth from the rise of media like Brietbart and the political base empowered specifically by Trump.

You asked what are they waiting for? I told you exactly what they are waiting for, and Trump is their guy. Your question does not require them to suddenly be successful in their violence--I mean, you act as if they didn't advertise their explicit intent to commit great violence ahead of Charlottesville...and of course that they actually murdered someone in Charlottseville, which is a strange omission on your part--this is exactly what they are waiting for. Perhaps we can all be thankful that the forces and the law that have so far risen against them can be credited for lessening their advertised desires for violence to this point?

maybe?

So they were waiting for Trump, and got Trump. So, in 9 months they have done a hand full of rallies with this new leader they got? Further, they are being countered hard and fast each time they now try and do anything.

So their waiting was to do some shitty rallies?

Remember, you jumped into this after I said this...

"Ask yourself this, if Neo-Nazis are so violent and such a threat, then what are they waiting for? I presume you think they are trying to build a base, which then implies you believe people can be swayed to racism."

It sure looks like their goal is to build support. What else is the point of a rally if not to build support. As of yet, the major things we have seen are the rallies. Do you believe they are trying to build support, or are trying to take action?

 

[realibrad]

my short version.... Who gives a fuck? Nazis are Nazis no matter where they come from and Authoritarian anti-liberalists are no different... fascists rule the extremes of both sides and are pretty much the same.

Here's a tip, don't fucking embrace them on either side because if you do, you're now a spokesperson for fascism.

Huh. Yeah I agree.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Huh. Yeah I agree.

I know, and it makes me feel dirty all over.