ok, so tell me, why do i need 64 bit os?

[gmaster456]

So, I've got to toss my perfectly usable software, buy new software, go through the learning curve to get proficient with it? Is it worth the trouble? For what? A tad more speed? :whiste:

No. You don't HAVE to. But you don't really have any right to complain about a modern OS not being able to run 15 year old software. Buy new software or don't upgrade.

 

[bononos]

...........
Paging can not make it possible for a 32 bit program to exceed 4 GB of RAM. The 2/3GB is a Windows limit but the 4GB number is the limit of a 32 bit integer (2^32) which is the maximum addressable memory space. All paging does is mean that if you run out of RAM it will use the considerably slower hard drive. You really don't want paging and today on a desktop its large
.......

I didn't say paging made it possible to exceed the 4Gb barrier for each application, not at all, what I said was 'for all applications combined that are running'. Furthurmore I expressly mentioned 2Gb is still the limit (without the 3Gb switch).

 

[Muse]

Here ya go...

http://www.scribus.net/canvas/Scribus

You can Paypal me $100 for the hot tip. That's a bargain by any standard :^D

But if I install this I have another learning curve to deal with. I already know exactly how to do what I want to with Pagemaker 6.5 (99+% of the time), and it works fine on my XP machines. It does not work fine on my Win7 machine. And a major reason to not upgrade is the literally hundreds of .p65 (and .pm5) files I have, many of which I reuse on a regular basis. If I happen to want to use a Pagemaker 5.0 file in Pagemaker 6.5, it will automatically make the conversion, no problem. I doubt that Scribus will do those things.

I did a search on the issue and came up with this post at a Scribus forum:
- - - -
Quote from: lsolesen on March 10, 2011, 09:32:16 pm

I have some ancient .p65 files (an a couple of Indesign files), but I want to start using scribus instead. What is the easiest transition? Do I have to start from scratch setting everything up?


There is a possibility to import AI pdf files in podofo enabled Scribus. Otherwise, you need to redo your layouts anew.
- - - -

$100 IIRC is exactly what I paid for my Pagemaker 5.0-->6.5 upgrade. Not sure how necessary that was, honestly.

 

[lxskllr]

But if I install this I have another learning curve to deal with. I already know exactly how to do what I want to with Pagemaker 6.5 (99+% of the time), and it works fine on my XP machines. It does not work fine on my Win7 machine. And a major reason to not upgrade is the literally hundreds of .p65 files I have, many of which I reuse on a regular basis. If I happen to want to use a Pagemaker 5.0 file in Pagemaker 6.5, it will automatically make the conversion, no problem. I doubt that Scribus will do those things.

I did a search on the issue and came up with this post at a Scribus forum:
- - - -
Quote from: lsolesen on March 10, 2011, 09:32:16 pm

I have some ancient .p65 files (an a couple of Indesign files), but I want to start using scribus instead. What is the easiest transition? Do I have to start from scratch setting everything up?


There is a possibility to import AI pdf files in podofo enabled Scribus. Otherwise, you need to redo your layouts anew.
- - - -

$100 IIRC is exactly what I paid for my Pagemaker 5.0-->6.5 upgrade. Not sure how necessary that was, honestly.

The time will come when you HAVE to upgrade. You can stick with proprietary software that abuses you, or use libre software that respects your rights. If it were me, I'd start using the libre solution for all new work, and use the proprietary software for old stuff while I figured out a way to liberate my data.

 

[Nothinman]

But if I install this I have another learning curve to deal with. I already know exactly how to do what I want to with Pagemaker 6.5 (99+% of the time), and it works fine on my XP machines. It does not work fine on my Win7 machine. And a major reason to not upgrade is the literally hundreds of .p65 files I have, many of which I reuse on a regular basis. If I happen to want to use a Pagemaker 5.0 file in Pagemaker 6.5, it will automatically make the conversion, no problem. I doubt that Scribus will do those things.

I did a search on the issue and came up with this post at a Scribus forum:
- - - -
Quote from: lsolesen on March 10, 2011, 09:32:16 pm

I have some ancient .p65 files (an a couple of Indesign files), but I want to start using scribus instead. What is the easiest transition? Do I have to start from scratch setting everything up?


There is a possibility to import AI pdf files in podofo enabled Scribus. Otherwise, you need to redo your layouts anew.
- - - -

$100 IIRC is exactly what I paid for my Pagemaker 5.0-->6.5 upgrade. Not sure how necessary that was, honestly.

Perhaps you could work around that by exporting your exiting files to PDF or EPS and importing those into Scribus. But I don't really feel bad for you being locked into a proprietary format. I'm sure that's one of the reasons for Adobe not publishing the formats so 3rd parties can import/export them.

 

[Anteaus]

You didn't mention if this was for business or personal use, but you sound like this is really important so I'm going to assume its for a business of some sort.

Look into Adobe InDesign. It is the official replacement of Pagemaker and there is a chance that it will be able to import your Pagemaker files. You're not going through something unique. Every company that transitions to newer software must make plans on how to deal with it's older data.

If all of this data is critical to use, then you really need to start making a plan on how to move forward. If you keep stalling, eventually it will catch up with you and you'll be asking for a crisis. Yes there will be a learning curve, but that is the cost of doing business. No one ever starts out knowing everything they need to do.

There may be a small possibility that you might not be able to use these files at all with newer software, which means you need to definitely research and acquire the replacement, learn it and then work toward building new templates. The best time to do this is before you become dependent on it.

Right now you have time to prepare with the hope that one day you'll be able to turn the old machine off and turn the new machine on and not lose productivity.

 

[Muse]

The time will come when you HAVE to upgrade. You can stick with proprietary software that abuses you, or use libre software that respects your rights. If it were me, I'd start using the libre solution for all new work, and use the proprietary software for old stuff while I figured out a way to liberate my data.

That's easy to say, another 10,000 things to do. I don't feel abused by Pagemaker, in its day it was premier software. People didn't pay hundreds for it and then use it because they wanted abuse, it was because they wanted precise control of their printing of text and graphics intensive publications, and it did that marvelously and still does if their operating systems support it, and my XP machines do support it just fine AFAIK. I also use MS FoxPro, and although MS has arguably abused its developer community and failed to promote it and has pretty much stopped supporting it at this time, it remains in many respects the best tool for many database development solutions (say middle tier in n tier applications), there is yet a huge code base out there and many people working in it. I do like the open source ethic, but I'm not going to hang myself in the noose of adherence to it. I use freeware whenever possible, but I do not refuse to use for pay code. Some do, I suppose, or close to it. I try to be realistic in my decision making.

 

[Muse]

You didn't mention if this was for business or personal use, but you sound like this is really important so I'm going to assume its for a business of some sort.

Look into Adobe InDesign. It is the official replacement of Pagemaker and there is a chance that it will be able to import your Pagemaker files. You're not going through something unique. Every company that transitions to newer software must make plans on how to deal with it's older data.

If all of this data is critical to use, then you really need to start making a plan on how to move forward. If you keep stalling, eventually it will catch up with you and you'll be asking for a crisis. Yes there will be a learning curve, but that is the cost of doing business. No one ever starts out knowing everything they need to do.

There may be a small possibility that you might not be able to use these files at all with newer software, which means you need to definitely research and acquire the replacement, learn it and then work toward building new templates. The best time to do this is before you become dependent on it.

Right now you have time to prepare with the hope that one day you'll be able to turn the old machine off and turn the new machine on and not lose productivity.

When I started taking computer software classes in the early 1990's, I took Pagemaker 5.0 with the hopes of starting something in terms of DTP business. I got chops to the point where I thought I could get work and started knocking on doors but got little to no response. I did get one job producing a largish document (maybe 50 pages) for U.C. Berkeley's freshman catalogue, plenty of work to get that right. It came out great (I have a few copies somewhere) but I got paid very little. I think it's the only remuneration I've gotten with DTP. However, once I learned the techniques I realized how nice it is for the occasional personal use where I care to print something with more control than I get out of other types of software, including Word, text editors, etc. Plus it's downright fun to use (when it works right). I still use Pagemaker 6.5 quite frequently.

 

[Muse]

Perhaps you could work around that by exporting your exiting files to PDF or EPS and importing those into Scribus. But I don't really feel bad for you being locked into a proprietary format. I'm sure that's one of the reasons for Adobe not publishing the formats so 3rd parties can import/export them.

Um, maybe I'll look into that. Most of those hundreds of documents I will never use again, but there are some I do. Scribus, well, I have no idea how easy it would be for me to pick up. I'm pretty sure I can export my Pagemaker files to EPS, and I think there are free tools out there that will export to PDF these days, think I might have installed that already, not something I play with. However, more useful than printing my .p65 files is the ability to edit them. It's not a huge thing, but my point is I'm happy with Pagemaker as long as it works in my OS. So, the question becomes why upgrade? What am I getting by upgrading? Windows 3.1 was a royal PITA, I suffered the slings and arrows. Win95 was a phenomenally great upgrade. Stability, an interface that pleased. The advantages of moving from one version of Windows to the next nowadays is from my perspective not clear at all. I hear that Microsoft's stock hasn't been doing so well for a few years.

 

[lxskllr]

That's easy to say, another 10,000 things to do. I don't feel abused by Pagemaker, in its day it was premier software. People didn't pay hundreds for it and then use it because they wanted abuse, it was because they wanted precise control of their printing of text and graphics intensive publications...

They didn't want the abuse. That came free of charge :^D They abuse you by locking you into their proprietary format, and this was "back in the day" when proprietary formats were one of the worst offenses. Now companies have even greater control of your computing. They tell you where, and how you can use the software, and if they don't like what you're doing, they can remotely stop you. When a company controls the data, the user doesn't.

This might sound like ideological crap that people don't need to be concerned with, but if you look at your own situation, it should be very concerning. You're facing years of work being rendered useless because the software you used is an inscrutable black box. If the code were open someone could easily write a translation program for your files. Even if you can't do it yourself, there's someone out there who has the same problem as you, but does have the skill to fix it, and with libre code, they can give, or sell the fix to you.

... and it did that marvelously and still does if their operating systems support it, and my XP machines do support it just fine AFAIK.

XP supports it NOW, but what about 10 years from now? XP may not even run on the machines of the future. That'll leave you dumpster diving antique computers to run software that should have been fixed with code, but wasn't due to the developers abuse of you when you bought the software.

I do like the open source ethic, but I'm not going to hang myself in the noose of adherence to it. I use freeware whenever possible, but I do not refuse to use for pay code. Some do, I suppose, or close to it. I try to be realistic in my decision making.

An important point... Free software doesn't have anything to do with price. That's why I prefer the term libre. Libre explicitly means freedom, and doesn't have the ambiguous English meaning of gratis as the word "free" does. You can pay a lot of money for free software, and many people do. On the other hand, you can pay nothing for non-free software as you would with Adobe Flash player, or Opera browser. If you have the 4 freedoms, you have free software(notice price is never mentioned)...

The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).

The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).

The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

Again, this might sound like philosophical bullshit, but it affects us all on a daily basis. You fell into the proprietary trap once, and Adobe now owns your data. Be careful of letting it happen again. You may not have as easy a time of fixing the issue next time.

Edit:
critical grammar

 

[Zaap]

I second the idea of upgrading to InDesign or learn something else that's more future proof than sticking with the same old software.

On the other hand, I do understand this problem from the opposite side.

Take for example, these days Apple has put many of us that use Final Cut Pro for a living in a similar position. They completely dumbed down Final Cut X to the point it's virtually useless in an actual studio environment. It's not bad for prosumer software, but it's definitely not professional. So editors are stuck with Final Cut 7 for the foreseeable future, or switch to Premiere. (A program I for one hoped never to have to rely on again.)

Way back when, I remember a similar situation with Adobe Premiere 4.2. Myself and many people I know stuck with that for years because Premiere 5 and 6 sucked so damn bad in comparison.

Still, there does eventually come a time when the tools DO catch up, and then you have to learn something else and move on. I had no problem dumping Premiere and everything else for Final Cut Pro when it first came along.

 

[Muse]

They didn't want the abuse. That came free of charge :^D They abuse you by locking you into their proprietary format, and this was "back in the day" when proprietary formats were one of the worst offenses. Now companies have even greater control of your computing. They tell you where, and how you can use the software, and if they don't like what you're doing, they can remotely stop you. When a company controls the data, the user doesn't.

This might sound like ideological crap that people don't need to be concerned with, but if you look at your own situation, it should be very concerning. You're facing years of work being rendered useless because the software you used is an inscrutable black box. If the code were open someone could easily write a translation program for your files. Even if you can't do it yourself, there's someone out there who has the same problem as you, but does have the skill to fix it, and with libre code, they can give, or sell the fix to you.



XP supports it NOW, but what about 10 years from now? XP may not even run on the machines of the future. That'll leave you dumpster diving antique computers to run software that should have been fixed with code, but wasn't due to the developers abuse of you when you bought the software.



An important point... Free software doesn't have anything to do with price. That's why I prefer the term libre. Libre explicitly means freedom, and doesn't have the ambiguous English meaning of gratis as the word "free" does. You can pay a lot of money for free software, and many people do. On the other hand, you can pay nothing for non-free software as you would with Adobe Flash player, or Opera browser. If you have the 4 freedoms, you have free software(notice price is never mentioned)...

The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).

The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).

The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

Again, this might sound like philosophical bullshit, but it affects us all on a daily basis. You fell into the proprietary trap once, and Adobe now owns your data. Be careful of letting it happen again. You may not have as easy a time of fixing the issue next time.

Edit:
critical grammar

This is very interesting stuff (bookmarked!). I've read it a few times.

I guess I could get over not being able to run Pagemaker and the 200+ documents I've saved. I haven't looked at Scribus yet. Hopefully it uses a lot of the conventions I'm familiar with.

What I would miss dearly is the ability to run FoxPro code (now Visual FoxPro which runs a lot of FoxPro 2.6 for Windows code). I've written and use daily some pretty great code that organizes (and searches) all manner of data that I keep for my own purposes. I suppose if push came to shove I could export the data to whatever format and write some new code to deal with it. Exporting data is trivial, that code is quite complex in its entirety. Already, I can not modify some of the FoxPro for Windows code in Windows 7 (i.e. the screens), still can in XP. I could rewrite the FPW screens in 32 bit Visual FoxPro, but "am too lazy." Well, why bother? I have other coding projects that are much more important.

 

[Jodell88]

This is very interesting stuff (bookmarked!). I've read it a few times.

I guess I could get over not being able to run Pagemaker and the 200+ documents I've saved. I haven't looked at Scribus yet. Hopefully it uses a lot of the conventions I'm familiar with.

What I would miss dearly is the ability to run FoxPro code (now Visual FoxPro which runs a lot of FoxPro 2.6 for Windows code). I've written and use daily some pretty great code that organizes (and searches) all manner of data that I keep for my own purposes. I suppose if push came to shove I could export the data to whatever format and write some new code to deal with it. Exporting data is trivial, that code is quite complex in its entirety. Already, I can not modify some of the FoxPro for Windows code in Windows 7 (i.e. the screens), still can in XP. I could rewrite the FPW screens in 32 bit Visual FoxPro, but "am too lazy." Well, why bother? I have other coding projects that are much more important.

18 year old software? D:

What is the difficulty to export the data to an SQL database?

I strongly suggest you update the tools you use before you are unable to because of antiquity.

 

[Muse]

18 year old software? D:

What is the difficulty to export the data to an SQL database?

I strongly suggest you update the tools you use before you are unable to because of antiquity.

There's no particular difficulty exporting the data. The tools I use to manipulate and manage this data are pretty awesome and sophisticated, friendly too!

 

[lxskllr]

What I would miss dearly is the ability to run FoxPro code (now Visual FoxPro which runs a lot of FoxPro 2.6 for Windows code). I've written and use daily some pretty great code that organizes (and searches) all manner of data that I keep for my own purposes. I suppose if push came to shove I could export the data to whatever format and write some new code to deal with it. Exporting data is trivial, that code is quite complex in its entirety. Already, I can not modify some of the FoxPro for Windows code in Windows 7 (i.e. the screens), still can in XP. I could rewrite the FPW screens in 32 bit Visual FoxPro, but "am too lazy." Well, why bother? I have other coding projects that are much more important.

I don't know anything about the particulars of your situation, but it's time to start planning an exit strategy. You have the luxury of time atm, so it's best to take advantage of it before that disappears.

 

[wtfbollos]

..unless you have a specific need not to go 64-bit there is absolutely no reason not to..

but that doesn't give any specific reason to do so..

imo 'not getting left behind' is no real 'advantage'..whether real or imagined..

 

[wtfbollos]

A list of reasons could be created, however, and no offense meant, if you have to ask in the first place then you probably wouldn't understand.

none taken, but you are a little off target..try me..

It may. Being able to page to/from the pagefile doesn't buy you unlimited physical or virtual memory.

no, but it would certainly (physical page file permitting) give your app what it needed, unless it was a particularly badly written app that bled ram all over the place..

On a 32-bit system the per-process VM limit is 4G with 2G of that address space used by the kernel so that leaves 2G of VM and part of that address space is used by the binary itself, shared libraries, mmap()'d files, etc so the real amount of virtual memory a single process can access is <2G.

more than enough!

 

[wtfbollos]

Might as well give up guys, this is going to be one of those users that just wants to fight for the sake of fighting and inhibiting progress.

"fight"?

this is research..

Sometimes wtfbollos benefits can't be seen by normal users. It's industry benefits that allows everything to move as a whole into the next era of computing, a change that *has* to happen for the good of the computing public, but that the public won't necessarily understand. What we're moving toward does not function within the limited space of 32bit. We'll need to be moved forward. And at the slugs pace that consumers make about wanting change, the industry has to start pushing that change slowly and steadily. It takes multiple generations of OS's and programs to finally get out of the rut. Otherwise we might as well have stayed back at 16 bit.

..or even 8-bit like the first 8086?!

well this are just vague general feelings, not relating any tangible actual benefits from moving to 64-bit..but thanks for your reply anyway..

 

[wtfbollos]

..the important thing about 64bit OS is the amount of available address space since we are already hitting the 2G barrier in games for example..

+ newer cards have more and more ram on them, so that means less and less for the os..

i get the ram thing, i was looking for other benefits..seems quite elusive!

 

[wtfbollos]

No its much more than that. AVX does add performance but its not the only thing. For one there are additional registers which some programs really benefit from. Some applications can be 50% faster just because of the registers and native double support whereas others loose a little because they are dependent on large amounts of memory and the cache is more burdened with 64 bit pointers. 64 bit is a better instruction set and it brings the CPU into more modern levels of registers, something 32bit x86 was short of.

here you go, something to get yer teeth into!

i'm presuming someone, at some point has done some benchies?

 

[Muse]

I don't know anything about the particulars of your situation, but it's time to start planning an exit strategy. You have the luxury of time atm, so it's best to take advantage of it before that disappears.

Will I really find it impossible to run Pagemaker 6.5, FoxPro for Windows 2.6a, Visual FoxPro 9.0? I have a lot of work invested in those programs. I printed a couple of Pagemaker files today that took me quite a bit of time to create. Of course, printing them was no great difficulty, but recreating those files in another software would take hours, and that's not even considering the learning curve.

I'd like to learn other software but I have other things to do too. I wish these newer OSs were more backward compatible.

 

[Jodell88]

Will I really find it impossible to run Pagemaker 6.5, FoxPro for Windows 2.6a, Visual FoxPro 9.0? I have a lot of work invested in those programs. I printed a couple of Pagemaker files today that took me quite a bit of time to create. Of course, printing them was no great difficulty, but recreating those files in another software would take hours, and that's not even considering the learning curve.

I'd like to learn other software but I have other things to do too. I wish these newer OSs were more backward compatible.

They are backwards compatible. However, 18 years is asking a lot. I don't know if you've noticed but you're using software that dead upstream. In the case of Visual FoxPro 9 Microsoft has said they will support it until 2015.

Time to jump the burning ship.

 

[Anteaus]

but that doesn't give any specific reason to do so..

imo 'not getting left behind' is no real 'advantage'..whether real or imagined..

I shouldn't have to give specifics in this context. Were you using a rotory phone until it literally stopped working or did you adopt touch tone earlier on? You might not be old enough for that, but you get my meaning.

If I have to give you a specific bulleted list on the top ten reasons why you should switch to 64-bit, then you're not the type of person I presume to give advice to, because you're looking for someone to give you more than we can give. You've pretty much decided that there is no reason to upgrade, and nothing we will say here will change that. Otherwise, you wouldn't be putting up such a fight. The question was raised about whether someone should get a 64-bit OS. Many people here gave you the "because it's better" answer, and others went into more detail. If you expect more I suggest you do some independent research.

Some people are hesitant to switch because of specific concerns, and all we can do here is offer advice on how to deal with those concerns. Sometimes those concerns can be remedied and sometimes they require a completely new approach. At the end of the day, there is an opportunity cost. You can either switch now or switch later. The only thing I can tell you is that switching will be mandatory at some point, so how you deal with that information is up to you.

We could easily flip this on you and demand specific reasons why you shouldn't upgrade. "Because software X doesn't work with 64-bit" doesn't count because I've got tons of old software that doesn't work with XP+. Based on that logic, I should still be using Windows 98 and arguing about the virtue of 16-bit software.

 

[Muse]

They are backwards compatible. However, 18 years is asking a lot. I don't know if you've noticed but you're using software that dead upstream. In the case of Visual FoxPro 9 Microsoft has said they will support it until 2015.

Time to jump the burning ship.

The ship will not burn. The software runs OK. Their support will disappear, but VFP's a rather mature product. There's a ton apps running FoxPro code out there. Work developing FoxPro applications has been waning for years, of course. However, IMO it's still the best platform for some kinds of development, but Microsoft's lack of support has resulted in a lack of confidence by the people who bankroll application development projects. Well, they don't write the code. Microsoft has abandoned it mainly because the Xbase/FoxPro development/developer/revenue model isn't very profitable for them compared to what they've gone to. Yes, if I want to extend my career in programming, other tools are more attractive just by virtue of that fact that it's easier to find work.

 

[wtfbollos]

I shouldn't have to give specifics in this context.

well i am asking for specifics.

If I have to give you a specific bulleted list on the top ten reasons why you should switch to 64-bit, then you're not the type of person I presume to give advice to, because you're looking for someone to give you more than we can give.

you can walk by, you don't have to respond. i raised a thread and i'm askin'

You've pretty much decided that there is no reason to upgrade, and nothing we will say here will change that. Otherwise, you wouldn't be putting up such a fight.

i'm already using it.

The question was raised about whether someone should get a 64-bit OS.

i asked why do i need a 64-bit os.

Many people here gave you the "because it's better" answer, and others went into more detail.

yeah i got 1 good answer..but even that was without links..

If you expect more I suggest you do some independent research.

funny, if this was so obvious, there'd be links all over the place, whjich is kinda why i think, APART from the extra ram available, it provide little benefit..after having been on it for a while, i can say it seems to boot up quicker..

We could easily flip this on you and demand specific reasons why you shouldn't upgrade.

i would say idk, hence this thread..

"Because software X doesn't work with 64-bit" doesn't count because I've got tons of old software that doesn't work with XP+. Based on that logic, I should still be using Windows 98 and arguing about the virtue of 16-bit software.

i'm not worried about software, just how the os works, what it ACTUALLY does that is better than 32-bit..

i'm still of the mind that there is little benefit..