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Ok, I'v had enough of Israel!!!

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I think the key here that we all need to understand is most of us consider Isreal to be a western nation, with freedom and democracy and all that. And more or less, we'll group Palestine in with Iraq, Iran, the old Afghanistan, etc... As such, the former group is one we're closer to, and one that we're more likely to be able to have civilized negotiations and relations with. The latter group, not so much...

As such, the Palestinians have no accountability in my eyes. They're desparate enough to do whatever they want at whatever the cost. If this is indeed the case, there's no use blaming them.

You want to put the blame on the group that actually cares about human lives if you want peace. That group is Isreal. Therefore, I put the blame for all this bloodshed on Sharon. To blame the Palastinians is like scolding a child for spilling his milk.
 
ThePresence:

The U.S. is hitting back in a Just way - targetting only military, minimizing casualties, still giving aid to the people, and treating prisoners fairly.

All that vanished LONG ago in the Israel vs. Palestine debacle.

Justice in warfare depends heavily on:

1) Justification for the war itself

2) The war being conducted in a just way (at least on your side).
 


<<

<< At least the Israelis haven't purposefully put explosives where Palestinian civilians go to shop or wait for transportation or attend a wedding. >>



They put a booby trap where five young school chrildren were killed when they set off on their way to school a few months back >>



Oh wow, You actually found a case! A few school children were killed when a bomb meant for a Hamas terrorist went off prematurely. I think I can find a few more cases when the Palestinians were trying to kill innocent young children. I know someone will bring up the case that happened 2 days ago, when a group of Israeli nutcases put a bomb in an arab schoolyard. You have nutcases in every society. Its not like Israeli schools are glorifying suicide attacks on palestinian civillians.

 


<< ThePresence:

The U.S. is hitting back in a Just way - targetting only military, minimizing casualties, still giving aid to the people, and treating prisoners fairly.

All that vanished LONG ago in the Israel vs. Palestine debacle.

Justice in warfare depends heavily on:

1) Justification for the war itself

2) The war being conducted in a just way (at least on your side). >>



Optimus,

A) The US is not fighting in heavily populated cities. We let the Afghans do that for us. Dont get me wrong, I think the US is totally justified in what they're doing.

B) The US is fighting a military!(at least quasi-military) Israel is fighting terrorists, not an organized army. They may be organized, but I've yet to see a Hamas, Jihad or Al-Asqa military uniform.

C) Im sure some Afghanis have a totally different prespective about the justification of the US. We are US citizens, so we feel that its justified.
 


<< All I have to say is, if people tried to bomb the US, and we found out which country these suckers came from, we'd be sending everything we've got and mow that place over, regardless of how much "evidence" we had. >>



What would the US have done if 1/3 of it's citizens had taken up arms and driven out the remaining 2/3 onto 22% of the land, with a policy of ethnic cleansing as bad as that seen recently in Serbia .
 


<< You want to put the blame on the group that actually cares about human lives if you want peace. That group is Isreal. Therefore, I put the blame for all this bloodshed on Sharon. To blame the Palastinians is like scolding a child for spilling his milk. >>



Israel has stood down multiple times to try and allow the Palestinians to control the situation. Every time, the radicals trigger an event that causes retaliation. Until the authorities (on both sides) can reign in the radicals, there can be no peace. Only some type of Berlin wall would control the situation at present.

Palestinian have a love hate relationship with Israel. They need the country for economic support. However, the radicals can not accept the country (they have been fed with 50 years of hate) and also are encouraged as a proxy by other Arab nations.

Israel needs a buffer zone to protect them from incursions by radicals. There is enough hatred and instability in the Arab world that the old '47 boundaries are impractical. The west bank was carved from Trans Jordan back in '47 and the follow-on conflict. If Jordan were to be compensated, they could allocate more territory for the Palestinian state. The problem would be to get the Palestinians to accept that 3/4 of a loaf is better than none. Those that are creating violence are not the ones that were driven out. They are causing trouble based on history and stories told by parents and grandparents.
 
<<So the combined armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon with support from the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation had no modern warfare training in 1967? BS
Nice try, but you aren't going to minimalize Israel's victory over overwhelming numbers that easily. >>

<<Obviously you haven't any knowledge of the overwhelming odds faced by the Israelis during the '73 war.>>

Thats funny! Go read the testimony of the officers from each participating country. The Soviet Advisors pulled out prior to the fulfillment of their training, maintenance and installment contracts. The equipment was all labelled in Russian, not exactly user friendly, and had safeguards that had to be actively removed. More battles than not ended up being turkeyshoots because of the lack of preparation on the arab side. The typical Arab officer was not trained for manuever warfare, but rather for defensive warfare and was unable to cope with conditions outside their training.

You totally ignore the state of the Arab societies in the modern age. We aren't exactly talking first world democracies and modern age luxuries. The infrastructure of the neighbors around Isreal are mere skeletons to what exists in Isreal, and this is mainly due to the mismanagement and ignorance in the average Arab leadership. Its not that the Arabs leaders are stupid, its that they don't know better.

Too many people equate philosophy as the cure to all problems. Trouble is one facet of life, say basket weaving, has literal bearing on other facets of life, say iron working. What works in one facet does not necessarily work in the other. The extremist leaderships have tunnel vision and cannot see the kaliedoscope of realities that exist outside their own. This is why the Western World has been so much quicker at developing than many Eastern societies. The Eastern Societies that recognized these shortcomings, like Japan, have become very advanced. Countries like Iraq have not recognized their tunnel vision and therefore are weighed down with repression.
 
Thats funny! Go read the testimony of the officers from each participating country. The Soviet Advisors pulled out prior to the fulfillment of their training, maintenance and installment contracts.

The Soviet advisors pulled out because Moscow feared they would end up on the receiving end of 500 pound iron bombs dropped by Israeli F-4s. 1973 almost marked an occasion in which Israel came close to employing Jericho missiles on Arab capitals.

You totally ignore the state of the Arab societies in the modern age. We aren't exactly talking first world democracies and modern age luxuries. The infrastructure of the neighbors around Isreal are mere skeletons to what exists in Isreal, and this is mainly due to the mismanagement and ignorance in the average Arab leadership. Its not that the Arabs leaders are stupid, its that they don't know better.

I ignore nothing. Been there 3 times. Of course the Arabs are a bunch of bassackwards hypocrites. Why do you think the world has the problems it does now?

Case in point: Sinai. Israel cultivates the region from occupation up until 1981. Very easy to observe where Israeli influence was. Actual structures and even, OMFG!!!, an infrastructure in place. Everywhere the Israelis settled flourished with a subtle European tone. Sinai returns back to Egyptian hands and, presto-chango... reverts back into a pile of disorganized crap - minus it's own inherent beauty of course. The Sinai is very beautiful and the Israelis were able to develop the place without destroying the spectacular surroundings.

Still doesn't change the fact that the Arabs had Soviet backing and nearly twice the number of combatants as the Israelis.

Say what you will, but there is no denying that the Israelis were outnumbered 2-1 and still kicked their ass.
 


<< Still doesn't change the fact that the Arabs had Soviet backing and nearly twice the number of combatants as the Israelis.

Say what you will, but there is no denying that the Israelis were outnumbered 2-1 and still kicked their ass. >>



Also, in '67 and '73 Israel was on the suprise receiving end of coordinated attacks by the Arab countries.
In '47/48, they were hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.
 
<<Also, in '67 and '73 Israel was on the suprise receiving end of coordinated attacks by the Arab countries. In '47/48, they were hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.>>

The attacks in 1967 were hardly a surprise. Why? Because the Isrealis attacked first. 😉

There was a total clusterfruck in the coalition of forces aligned against Isreal. They had severe communications and organizational problems that hastened their demise. The breakdowns have been closely studied for years by experts and the American forces heeded the lessons learned when they formed a coalition during the Persian Gulf War.

<<1973 almost marked an occasion in which Israel came close to employing Jericho missiles on Arab capitals.>>

From what I understand, only because the Soviets were delivering nuke warheads to the Egyptians via ship. The Isrealis were always surprised by defensive measures at the onset of hostilities on every occassion, but never showed their aces in any engagement. This time the Isrealis were being invaded rather than having the initiative.

The inept forced of Syria, Eqypt, and jordan just were not organized effectively to be used as invasion forces and were highly vulnerable to interdiction. The Soviets offered the nukes as insurance against a first-strike by Isreal. Rumor was that if Jerusalem fell into Arab hands then nuclear weapons would be unleashed on Damascus and Cairo.

The Isrealis had turned a threat into a rout and were making headway on the capitols of Syria and Egypt. The ship still was on a steady course. The United States intervened, citing the risk of an Isreali first-strike now would be the sole responsibility of the Soviets for their delivery, and the ship turned around. And with that we had a pretty quick resolution of the war.
 
sward666 Thanks.

I knew that Israel tore through the Egyptian forces, but was unaware that they had take the initiative first.

The link you provided was useful.

However, it seems that the actions were fairly well provoked.
 
Czar you are most certainly holding Israel to a higher standard, and judging them without knowing all of the facts behind their decision.

One thing has yet to be mentioned in this entire discussion. Something like this happened months ago, only this time it was a Palestinian crime.
THey shot an Israeli soldier (corp. I believe), and then they refused to allow any medics to reach him. The military commander decided not to storm the building because he did not want it to appear like Israel was escalating the violence. The soldier bled to death after four hours of agony, because the stubborn Palestinians would not allow people to save him.
And the Israelis showed the patience of Job in that case.

Talk about selective memory Czar.
 


<< First of all these two civilians were not terrorists, they could have been saved, and most important of all, there is no chance that this could be signed off as "accidents". >>


And people killed by suicide bombers cannot be signed off as accidents 🙂

By the way, I was under the impression we had an unspoken agreement for a moratorium on these sort of things until a big new development came about; Otherwise, we'd never stop talking. Notice you didn't hear of any of these incidents on ATOT which occured in the past week:

Suicide Bombing Rocks Ultra-Orthodox Jerusalem Neighborhood
Gunman Kills Three in Tel Aviv Nightclub; Suicide Bomber Strikes Bus
Palestinian Militants Kill Five Israelis; Israel Stages Air Raids
Suicide Bomber Wounds Four in Jewish Settlement
 
I think the whole world ought to chip in and send Palestinians and Israelis equal amount of weapons of mass destruction. Then, we just forget about them until both sides kill each other and make country a nuclear wasteland. No more arguements, no more fighting over sacred land.
 


<< I think the whole world ought to chip in and send Palestinians and Israelis equal amount of weapons of mass destruction. >>



Too bad the Israelis already seem to have thought of that idea first....

Israeli weapons permit requests up 75%

Seems the spirit of the Second Amendment is alive and well in Israel at least...
 
Well this thread has some very well thought out and justifiable ideas....... BUT

*********** Just to lighten it up a bit ***************** (heh, heh)


How 'bout we just leave em alone, and let em fight.... We can steal their camels when they aren't looking.


(At least that way, they can't reproduce)



Yes, I know this shows no respect for the situation, but it deserves none... where in recorded history is a
period when these idiots weren't running around killing eachother... it's all they know. We can either
erradicate them, or get used to it (anyone want to guess my vote?)
 


<< Yes, I know this shows no respect for the situation, but it deserves none... where in recorded history is a
period when these idiots weren't running around killing eachother... it's all they know. We can either
erradicate them, or get used to it (anyone want to guess my vote?) >>


Recorded history only goes back 54 years 🙁
 
If the bible counts (and it should because THEY wrote it), make that 2000+ (they were all fighting then too)
 


<< If the bible counts (and it should because THEY wrote it), make that 2000+ (they were all fighting then too) >>


Who the heck is "THEY?" And it's year 5762 on the Jewish calender.
 
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