Ok, I'v had enough of Israel!!!

[Czar]

ThePresence,
I sit here in the freezing cold in Iceland. I have the luxury of looking at this objectively.
I dont perfectly understand what is going on there but I am trying, from both sides. I have not lived in Isreal or Palestine and therefor I do not have a bias toward one side to get in the way of seeing the other side.
I have noticed that most Isrealis truly want peace. Too bad the way the Isreali government to deal with it will not bring peace and will only increase violence on both sides.
Everyone gets sick of violence.
I think that neither side wakes up and looks for someone from the other side to kill, I think both sides wakes up and hears on the news what the other side did during the night and seek revenge.
I think the worst thing that can happen is one side starts to get the upper hand and starts ethnicly clensing the other side.
I do not look at this regarding religion, I dont care what people belive in, Isreal could be the only Athiest country in the world and I'd still think what they are doing is wrong and same goes for Palestine.
I think for both side it is about power over their own land, I think both sides want to live there in peace, and under their own rule.
Its easy to say that the Palestinians want land and nothing but land while the Isrealis want peace and nothing but peace, the Palestinians dont have land and they must have land to have peace, the Isrealis have land and obviosly want peace.

 

[burnedout]

<<ThePresence Nice to see you show up here. Please enlighten the Pro-Palestinian crowd with your real-world experiences over there. Such things as the Palestinians carrying their children into demonstrations, firefights and the like.

The pro-Palestinian crowd cant be bothered by facts. It mixes them up.

There are many facts that go untold about the conflict over there. So many refuse to believe Israel has the right to defend itself.

By the way, I've been to Israel twice. Hope to go back whenever all of this mess is sorted out. Is the Maccabe beer still the same? Eilat rules!

 

[Czar]

btw, I wont reply for an hour or so, going out.

 

[Grommet5]

ThePresence, please go and join the IDF, because thats were you belong, with the Zionist filth.

 

[ThePresence]

<< ThePresence,
I sit here in the freezing cold in Iceland. I have the luxury of looking at this objectively.
I dont perfectly understand what is going on there but I am trying, from both sides. I have not lived in Isreal or Palestine and therefor I do not have a bias toward one side to get in the way of seeing the other side. >>



Your thread title took care of that one. No bias, eh?



<< I have noticed that most Isrealis truly want peace. Too bad the way the Isreali government to deal with it will not bring peace and will only increase violence on both sides. >>



And how would you have them deal with it? Do you want them to go the funerals of their neighbors, then come home, have a coffee and go to sleep?



<< I think that neither side wakes up and looks for someone from the other side to kill, I think both sides wakes up and hears on the news what the other side did during the night and seek revenge.
I think the worst thing that can happen is one side starts to get the upper hand and starts ethnicly clensing the other side. >>



ethnicly cleansing. what a load of crap. Terrorist Cleansing. Please dont throw around these hardcore liberal rallying words.



<< Its easy to say that the Palestinians want land and nothing but land while the Isrealis want peace and nothing but peace, the Palestinians dont have land and they must have land to have peace, the Isrealis have land and obviosly want peace. >>



Yes. It is easy to say. The truth can sometimes be easy to say.

 

[ThePresence]

<< ThePresence, please go and join the IDF, because thats were you belong, with the Zionist filth. >>



Do I really have to respond to this? I think he said it all himself.

BurnedOut> I live in NYC, Im out of there for almost four years. Macabee beer, hahaha. What about Time cigarettes? lol

 

[etech]

Grommet5
"etec, well she wasn't wearing an apron. My point is you can differentiate between militants and civilains. "

You just proved that you know nothing about the situation in the Middle East or any other conflict of that type. No you cannot tell just by looking if someone is a terrorist. Idiotic statement.

 

[Grommet5]

ThePresence, Just because you lived in Israel, doesn't make you an expert, because your experiences came from being an israeli soldier. You certainly did not live with any palestinians or protested with them, so its no wonder your more pro-israeli that anything. otherwise you wouldn't have joined the IDF.

 

[Grommet5]

etech, you don't anything about the situation either. so don't preach me, unless your a hypocrit.

 

[etech]

Grommet5

You may have a point there, when you grow up trained as a terrorist it's hard to determine what is right and wrong. It does not make their actions morally right just because they do not know any better.

In Training

 

[burnedout]

<< ThePresence, please go and join the IDF, because thats were you belong, with the Zionist filth. >>

Do I really have to respond to this? I think he said it all himself.

Grommet5 isn't the least bit "anti-Israeli", now is he?

BurnedOut> I live in NYC, Im out of there for almost four years. Macabee beer, hahaha. What about Time cigarettes? lol

LOL.. Yeah, I know. An aspect about living in Israel is that one can't be overly materialistic.

<edit>edited the italics </edit>

 

[ThePresence]

<< ThePresence, Just because you lived in Israel, doesn't make you an expert, because your experiences came from being an israeli soldier. You certainly did not live with any palestinians or protested with them, so its no wonder your more pro-israeli that anything. otherwise you wouldn't have joined the IDF. >>



True, however I have an understanding of the situation that you do not have. Its quite impossible for you or anyone else here to cast judgement on the Israelis like you have been doing, being that you havent the foggiest notion of what's actually going on over there.

 

[Grommet5]

etech, Just because palestinians start the military training at an earlier age doesn't make those kids all terrorists. Don't the israelis' also have some sought of mandatory army duty for all israeli teenagers. So i guess because israeli trains their kids at a later stage, we call them soldiers instead of terrorist.

 

[Dually]

I have changed my mind. I have done a lot of thinking about the whole situation. Arafat is very old and he was never elected and is in full control ordering the bombings or at the very least not removing those doing them. There are only two ways for eventual peace for both sides.

1)A U.N. Security force lead by France and Germany in Israel and Palestine in the 60,000 troop numbers. This would allow the two states to co-exist. Palestine would be forbiden from having a army and airforce. Palestine would have to hold elections for a Republic system of government. Israel would have to become a Republic or Democracy as well. This is the best but unlikely way.

2)Israel adopts a Republic or Democracy form of government. Then Israel invades Palestine and destroys Hamas and all other militant groups there. Israel then allows for Palestinians to become citizens of Israel as white card holders and Israelis become citizens with blue card holders. The upper house of government is solely controlled by the blue card holders and the lower house is controlled by the white card holders. This solves the problem of Palestinians having a majority power and prevents presecution and laws would be passed preventing persecution of either side. The Prime Minister would allways be a Jew. The President would be elected by popular vote allowing either side to be President even though the Palestinians would have a slight edge.

It is my offical opinion that the common people of both sides just want peace and freedom to worship in their own way and that politicans in undemocratic systems prevent this.

 

[ThePresence]

<< etech, Just because palestinians start the military training at an earlier age doesn't make those kids all terrorists. Don't the israelis' also have some sought of mandatory army duty for all israeli teenagers. So i guess because israeli trains their kids at a later stage, we call them soldiers instead of terrorist. >>



The military training, lol. More like the "Lets go and kill as many Israeli civillians as we can" kinda training. Please dont confuse that with anything remotely associated with a military. Israeli Army duty is percisely that. Army duty, not training in terror tactics.

 

[BoltCase]

OMG!! Israelis commmiting murders? You gotta be kidding be!!

Check out this CBS news report:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/02/world/main502698.shtml

and read "Ambulances as Target"

Also check out the videos on the right side panel.

Many of the palestinian civilian casuatlies were made using AMERICAN MADE weaponary given to Israel for FREE. You gotta love that!

 

[Grommet5]

You may call it army duty or whatever, and your absolutely right, killing kids and mothers is not considered terror tactics. Neither is blocking ambulances from reaching the wounded. I guess it more of diplomacy thing.

 

[burnedout]

You may call army duty or whatever, and youur absolutely right, killing kids and mothers is not considered terror tactics.

So one might suppose that detonating bombs in a cafe or pizzaria isn't either? Ha! The Palestinians violate laws of war at least 10 times more than Israel even dreamed of.

Neither is blocking ambulances from reaching the wounded.

When the ambulances are carrying bombs and weapons, it damn sure is.

 

[ThePresence]

<< You may call it army duty or whatever, and your absolutely right, killing kids and mothers is not considered terror tactics. Neither is blocking ambulances from reaching the wounded. I guess it more of diplomacy thing.

>>



It's really simple. The Israelis are not targeting innocent civillian women and children. If some of them happen to get killed, it's unfortunate, but war is hell. Maybe they should blame their brother or father, he's the one that goes and kills Israeli children on purpose. Ok, the blocking ambulances. Red Crescent ambulances are the chief terrorist transportatin vehicle. Gets them world sympathy when the Israelis fire on them. The palestinians are masters of media manipulation. Here's an
example.

 

[Grommet5]

<<When the ambulances are carrying bombs and weapons, it damn sure is. >>

Now, what would be point of carrying bombs to the wounded. They are trying to save lifes, not take them away.

 

[Grommet5]

<<The palestinians are masters of media manipulation.>>

hmm, you just posted an israeli site, i suppose that site will be free of media and photoshop manipulation.

 

[etech]

That is what ambulances are used for in civilized places. When terrorists use them for transportation then that is not their use.

Grommet5, are you really that dense?

 

[Grommet5]

etech, NO, are you. i understand they could be used to transport militants. BUT thats different than blocking them so they can't reach the wounded. Don't you agree?

 

[ThePresence]

<< <<When the ambulances are carrying bombs and weapons, it damn sure is. >>

Now, what would be point of carrying bombs to the wounded. They are trying to save lifes, not take them away.

>>



Sure, they are trying to save lives. The lives of the terrorists that hide in those ambulances. If the Israelis wanted to kill the guys bleeding on the ground, they would. They wouldn't block ambulances from reaching them. They're blocking the ambulances simply because they know that these are alot more than ambulances. But hell, lets not let facts get in the way.

 

[Dually]

Just for reference the International Red Cross has filed an offical complaint with the U.N. saying Israel is commiting War Crimes principly Crimes Against Humanity for attacking ambulances.