OHP and Deadlift progression question(s)

[Lamont Burns]

OHP:

I do a strict, butt clenched standing OHP. I just hit 100 on it yesterday. I did a set of 3, 4, 3 on it. I just couldn't do more each set. I normally shoot for 3x5 on these larger compounds. Do I stick at 100 until it's 3x5, or do I back down to 95 and do more reps?

My warm up is 45x8, 65x5 ... then went to 100.

I currently do this press once a week, I'm off SS and onto a 4 day split where some parts are hit twice. Shoulders is not really one of them.

I do OHP, then barbell upright rows 4x6, and finally plate loaded seated rear delt row 4x6.


Deadlift:

I recently did a 1x3 of 255. I do this once a week as well.
warm-ups:
135x8
185x3
205x3
225x3

Then to the working weight. I only got it up 3x. The previous week I had done 245 2 sets of 3.

Should I be warming up and progressing differently? My forms are good I think, and my bulking diet is in order. How would the gurus here move up from these stats, if they were there?

For reference I'm 6'4", 215. Squat is 195, Bench is 145 if relevant. Thanks for any tips, advice.

 

[z1ggy]

What are your goals? Strength...endurance..mass? Looking at your bench ..you def. need to work on your strength. Not quite sure if you need any "mass" being that your 6 foot 4. Same with the squat, you really need to work on the strength. Pyramid work out is always good for that. The general theme I get from the strength training book I own is to start out doing 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps for two weeks. Next two weeks 3-4 sets..but now its 6-8 reps..2 weeks after its 4-6 reps. You didnt say how long you have been doing your program for, but maybe you can start outt with that. The 3x5 method is very popular and is something good to do on those last 2 weeks, but I dont think you should start there. Variety is the key here. Also.. on your OHP..you should really be doing push press/hang cleans I think. If you incorp. your legs and other large muscle groups it will be much more beneficial than just standing with yur ass cheeks clenched trying to push 100 pounds over your head. You will easily clean 100 pounds if you use your whole body to do acomplish this. As for your bench..the same method applies as above. You should also be hitting all chest areas as well : upper, mid and lower done by incline, flat and decline respectively. With the workout method I told you earlier, your body should be absolutely toasted after. This is done as a push pull routine and is done 4 days a week. Pref. mon/tues then thurs/fri. I hope I helped, please ask any more questions if you have them.

 

[Lamont Burns]

The only reason I don't push press is... well I feel like a cheater. My goal is strength/mass, in that order I suppose. I just started working in flat bench 2x a week 3 days apart. I know it's a weak area, it's been a weak area my entire life.

I've had open chest surgery and well gaining strength there now just seems like a bitch. Additionally, for some reason my right side anterior deltoid gives me sharp pain on incline barbell pressing. It's not as poignant on a hammer machine. I do flat/decline one day and flat/hammer incline the other.

My squat was 215 but I got a bout of hip tendinitis or just shitty hip flexors or something, and had to take time off it and back it down. I just ordered better shoes for squatting, hope that will help. I am back to adding 5 lbs to my squat a week, doing it twice a week 3x5 with little pain.

I'm on week 2 of this 4 day routine, was on SS for about 3 months I guess? I started at lifting very, very low weights.

 

[z1ggy]

Try a leg press then for squats if it really bothers your hips. It is pretty much just as effective and takes some pressure off the joints. Squating barefoot is actually the best method...but its pretty unorthodox. For the chest area...have you tried pushups? Doing those everyday or everyother day is a good way to give your chest some quick strength increase. I havent hit the gym in probably 2 months, but I roll ( practice jiu jitsu) 5 days a week and believe me I have lost zero strength. In fact I am almost certain I am stronger. Working your core muscles is what gets you "bigger" and stronger. Focusing on your legs and back is the best way to do this. They are the two biggest muscle groups in your body. My black belt intructor is absolutely huge. Guess what his two biggest areas are? His back is massive and so are his legs. His bicep is strong because of doing back, but by no means are they "beach quality". So you arent cheating by doing cleans/push press. You are using more large muscle groups which will help you get the goals. Dont stress over the bench press, it comes with time. I lifted when I was youngerwith a pro weight liftet. He said adding more then 1-3 pounds a week on your bench is not good. When I did sets, I sometimes increased the weight only by 3/4 of a pound sometimes.

 

[katank]

Have you tried Stronglifts 5x5? 5x5 to work on form might be a good idea. I still like either that or Starting Strength for adding strength rapidly. A 5 rep scheme is really good for strength development.

 

[Lamont Burns]

Mentions of SS in my post mean Starting Strength. I've done the program with success. My forms are good as previously stated. I'm pretty particular about making sure those are correct.

 

[z1ggy]

Yeah SS is good.. I have a similar book. I coudlnt find that one in the bookstore so I got the next best. You shoudl really try the push/pull routine for 6 weeks. They compliment each other very well and focus on those things I said. Much concrentration on the back, legs and chest with the addtion of complimenting shoulder tricep and bicep as well. Doing pushups, ab work, pull ups and other full body calestenics (sp?) is awesome too. Try burpees or supermans. Im sure if you google them you can find it. Also cherry pickers is a redic. good shoulder and tricep endurance exercise. I do all those things during my mma workouts mon and weds. These guys are pro fighters so I think they know a thing or two about how to push the body...

 

[brikis98]

Why did you stop SS? You're clearly still in the beginner stages and in all likelihood, it's going to be far more efficient for gaining strength/mass than a random split routine.

The OHP is very tough to make progress on. Doing it twice a week will definitely help, as would the occasional accessory exercise like handstand push-ups. Increasing your bench press can help the OHP as well.

In general, if you don't get 3x5 at a given weight, the usual advice is to try again one or two more times. If you still fail to get all the reps in the 3x5, deload by 10-20% and work your way back up. This applies to both the OHP and the deadlift.

 

[katank]

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
Mentions of SS in my post mean Starting Strength. I've done the program with success. My forms are good as previously stated. I'm pretty particular about making sure those are correct.

Even if your form is good, additional volume can still be beneficial if you have the time.

You are a big guy. You should be able to make quite a lot more progress on all your lifts using either a 3x5 or 5x5 scheme.

As long as you are in the ballpark that it's challenging to finish sets of 5, it's fine for strength gain. Feel free to deload to 95 or even 90 next time. OHP is just a very hard lift to make progress on.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: brikis98

The OHP is very tough to make progress on. Doing it twice a week will definitely help, as would the occasional accessory exercise like handstand push-ups. Increasing your bench press can help the OHP as well.

THIS!!!!!

Don't get frustrated, the OHP is the most difficult workout for most people to progress on because in our society we let our overhead strength go to absolute shit. Unlike the deadlift or squat or bench press to get strong at the OHP requires you to actually build a significant amount of muscle very early on in your progress. You need to develop a strong shoulder girdle and a strong core.

Remember that the OHP isn't going to be like the other lifts. You will not shoot towards you BW as fast as can be. Getting to a BW OHP is a huge milestone. Huge.

My advice: Keep the above in mind. Get into the gym and push like hell. Do some HSPUs or handstand holds, do weighted dips, do some benching. All of that will help your press.

 

[z1ggy]

Originally posted by: katank

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
Mentions of SS in my post mean Starting Strength. I've done the program with success. My forms are good as previously stated. I'm pretty particular about making sure those are correct.

Even if your form is good, additional volume can still be beneficial if you have the time.

You are a big guy. You should be able to make quite a lot more progress on all your lifts using either a 3x5 or 5x5 scheme.

As long as you are in the ballpark that it's challenging to finish sets of 5, it's fine for strength gain. Feel free to deload to 95 or even 90 next time. OHP is just a very hard lift to make progress on.

Thats why instead of an OHP I suggested push press. When I was a junior on the varisty football in HS That was the first time I did it. I started at 95 pounds in the beg of sept/late august. By mid to late october I was on 135 pounds doing 8 reps. Having your legs involved will help you gain strength in the lift a lot quicker.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: z1ggy
Thats why instead of an OHP I suggested push press. When I was a junior on the varisty football in HS That was the first time I did it. I started at 95 pounds in the beg of sept/late august. By mid to late october I was on 135 pounds doing 8 reps. Having your legs involved will help you gain strength in the lift a lot quicker.

Although a good exercise, the push press is quite different than the OHP. Getting better at the push press usually has more to do with learning to drive better with your legs rather than press with the upper body. However, the whole point of doing the strict OHP is to learn to press with the upper body, so doing the push press instead kind of defeats the purpose. Of course, there is nothing wrong with doing both exercises, but if you had to pick just one, I'd recommend the strict OHP.

 

[Lamont Burns]

Originally posted by: brikis98
Why did you stop SS? You're clearly still in the beginner stages and in all likelihood, it's going to be far more efficient for gaining strength/mass than a random split routine.

The OHP is very tough to make progress on. Doing it twice a week will definitely help, as would the occasional accessory exercise like handstand push-ups. Increasing your bench press can help the OHP as well.

In general, if you don't get 3x5 at a given weight, the usual advice is to try again one or two more times. If you still fail to get all the reps in the 3x5, deload by 10-20% and work your way back up. This applies to both the OHP and the deadlift.

Dietary constraints mainly. My schedule became FUBAR enough that keeping the excess needed and recovery to add to the squat and DL was stalling regularly.

 

[Lamont Burns]

I still do every compound exercise in SS, just not as often(Only DL and OHP is not 2x a week) with accessory instead of just the 3 exercises going A/B/A every other day.

ABA was fuxoring my hips with squat and DL. That was when I originally backed off the plan. I thought hernia but no bulge, and pain subsided. I swear to hell my form is good, which was why I was so damn frustrated.

Chukie Ts on order, maybe hip pain will be less dramatic with them? Hell if I know. It was pissing me off, I will say that. I love, LOVE to squat. I've though about trying Front Squats and more DLs to see if hip pain would be less.

 

[Lamont Burns]

I am squatting and benching today, actually. I shall invoke:

"Now I also know that you're supposed to 'listen to your body', but my brain says 'don't be a pussy, and just lift the fucking weights', and that's just what I do. "

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
Dietary constraints mainly. My schedule became FUBAR enough that keeping the excess needed and recovery to add to the squat and DL was stalling regularly.

GOMAD fits easily in a schedule...

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
ABA was fuxoring my hips with squat and DL. That was when I originally backed off the plan. I thought hernia but no bulge, and pain subsided. I swear to hell my form is good, which was why I was so damn frustrated.

What kind of hip pain?

 

[Lamont Burns]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
Dietary constraints mainly. My schedule became FUBAR enough that keeping the excess needed and recovery to add to the squat and DL was stalling regularly.

GOMAD fits easily in a schedule...

Originally posted by: Lamont Burns
ABA was fuxoring my hips with squat and DL. That was when I originally backed off the plan. I thought hernia but no bulge, and pain subsided. I swear to hell my form is good, which was why I was so damn frustrated.

What kind of hip pain?

I was doing GOMAD, it was tough but yes I did it. I could try it again. I was doing it with whole milk, tasty. Edit: Diet was not the only reason, just a factor. GOMAD was tough to digest and excrete.

The pain was a sharp one, riding right along the bottom of my crotch right up to top of each hip, on the inside. It was worst as I declined the weight. Almost like a straight line, as if a tendon was there running in a straight line.

I was icing it after every workout, with profen and fish oil to fight the inflammation. After 2 weeks of it I backed off. I thought tendinitis? Read it could be common in beginning squatters doing it quite often. But, no concrete evidence and no doc visit as of yet.

 

[brikis98]

Hip pain is often the result of bad form. The most typical cause - and one that happens with most beginners - is that your knees are sliding forward all through out the squat motion. There are tendons that attach at the knee and at the hip and if your knees slide forward real far with weight on your back, the tendon attachment at the hip gets stretched too much and you end up with pain and tendonitis (this is briefly mentioned in SS). In a proper squat, the knees should only be moving forward for the first ~1/3 of the motion, after which they stop and the rest of the motion happens around the hips. There are a few ways to work on this:

1. Push your knees out (away from each other) further: although you may think you're pushing them out enough, most beginners really aren't. Get those knees out further and they won't slide forward as much, you'll find it easier to go deep, and you'll engage your adductors more.
2. TUBOW (terribly useful block of wood): discussed in the SS book, you setup a block of wood a few inches in front of your feet. The idea is to do a squat and have your knee touch the block in the first 1/3 of the motion. You should then be able to complete the squat without pushing the block any further or knocking it over.
3. Wall squats: stand facing a wall just a few inches in front of your feet and squat.

You may also want to do some foam rolling and stretches (esp. samson stretch) for your hips.

 

[Lamont Burns]

I am going to work hard on #1 there today. That reads somewhat right to me.

 

[z1ggy]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: z1ggy
Thats why instead of an OHP I suggested push press. When I was a junior on the varisty football in HS That was the first time I did it. I started at 95 pounds in the beg of sept/late august. By mid to late october I was on 135 pounds doing 8 reps. Having your legs involved will help you gain strength in the lift a lot quicker.

Although a good exercise, the push press is quite different than the OHP. Getting better at the push press usually has more to do with learning to drive better with your legs rather than press with the upper body. However, the whole point of doing the strict OHP is to learn to press with the upper body, so doing the push press instead kind of defeats the purpose. Of course, there is nothing wrong with doing both exercises, but if you had to pick just one, I'd recommend the strict OHP.

I guess the only reason I always liek compound movements like the push press over just sitting or standing shoulder press is well.. its just more practical to athletes. How often do u just sit or stand pushing somebody up/away from you? Really never..and if you are, you are probably wrong.Nothing is wrong with an OHP, I was just saying for athletic performance, it may be best. Maybe since you have the hip pain it would be best to stay away from it since you do use your hips a lot for cleans/jerks/press.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: z1ggy
I guess the only reason I always liek compound movements like the push press over just sitting or standing shoulder press is well.. its just more practical to athletes. How often do u just sit or stand pushing somebody up/away from you? Really never..and if you are, you are probably wrong.Nothing is wrong with an OHP, I was just saying for athletic performance, it may be best. Maybe since you have the hip pain it would be best to stay away from it since you do use your hips a lot for cleans/jerks/press.

Technically, the OHP is a compound movement too, but yes, the push press involves even more muscle. As I said, I agree that it's a great exercise and if training for a sport, explosive movements in general are extremely useful - that's why SS includes the power clean. However, in terms of just building pure strength, the strict OHP is a better choice. Time permitting though, doing both is the best option of all

 

[conorvansmack]

Originally posted by: brikis98
3. Wall squats: stand facing a wall just a few inches in front of your feet and squat.

Wall squats helped me a ton. They showed me that I wasn't getting my butt back far enough and it forced me to keep my knees pointing out. Basically, my nose was against the wall when I was in the hole. I sometimes use them for warm up.

As far as OH Press, BeauJangles and brikis are right. It's usually the slowest to increase once you're past the initial gains and it's easy to stall on. I'd back off to 95, or whatever weight you're able to get 3 sets of 5 on (Starting Strength). After a hard deload, I started increasing the weight every other workout and have been gaining steadily again. I did the same for bench press and it's increasing too.

 

[z1ggy]

Yes I would do something like 3x5 push press and then 2-3 sets of 8-10 sitting/standing dumbell shoulder press after. Just like I would do maybe 3x5 weighted pull ups and then 2-3 sets of 8-10 bicep curls and lat pulldowns. But thats just how I lift..Its a preference thing really.