Ohio Supreme Court takes lead in cracking down on illegal 'debtors' prisons'

[Oldgamer]

Snippets from article:

Ohio law and a 1983 U.S. Supreme Court ruling prohibits judges from imprisoning people who can't afford to pay fines or court costs. Courts are also required to credit debtors $50 for each day spent behind bars.


However, an American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio report released in April of 2013 found that municipal court judges in several counties failed to adhere to both requirements, mostly in cases involving minor traffic offenses or other misdemeanors.

In many cases, the ACLU of Ohio found, the municipal judges simply didn't know what they were doing was wrong. Many judges are also under pressure to collect fines from defendants to pay for their courts' operations, according to the group.

In response to the report, the Ohio Supreme Court has done more than any other state supreme court to address the issue of jailing debtors, according to the ACLU of Ohio's Mike Brickner.

The court has launched a campaign to educate judges about the law, sending every municipal judge in the state a laminated bench card explaining the law and stepping up training for judges, probation officers, and court employees.

"I think that all of us have been aware of the fact that you don't have debtors' prisons in the United States," Adrine said. "How that played out, I think in some instances, may not have been as clear-cut

"The Supreme Court's efforts have helped Cleveland Municipal Court judges better understand the law"
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You can read the entire News Article Here

The fact that so many judges on the bench don't even understand the very law they are administering is pretty alarming to me.

I wonder how many other Judges in other cities and states have misinterpreted the law or are completely ignorant of the law altogether as in this case here in Ohio. These Judges are now being ordered to let a lot of people out of jails and being told they can't do this. But think of how many people's lives they have screwed up, so many who may have lost jobs, or families because they were stuck behind bars for month's while they had a fine that kept tallying up week to week that they couldn't pay, all because a Judge was ignorant of the law.

Yet we are told as citizens that "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

 

[Jaskalas]

The fact that so many judges on the bench don't even understand the very law they are administering is pretty alarming to me.

When Congress passes 2,000+ page bills, which then expand to more than 20,000 pages of regulation... who is going to read it all? No one.

Judges these days don't stand a chance in hell of grasping every aspect of US law. There is simply too much of it.

 

[Oldgamer]

When Congress passes 2,000+ page bills, which then expand to more than 20,000 pages of regulation... who is going to read it all? No one.

Judges these days don't stand a chance in hell of grasping every aspect of US law. There is simply too much of it.

Oh I see, so it's ok to excuse a Judge for being ignorant of the law but not the citizens?

I literally had a Judge tell me to my face years ago, "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

 

[waggy]

LOL i mentioned this was happening last year and got shouted down. even after articles on it.

good to see that they are cracking down on it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Ohio Supreme Court takes lead in cracking down on illegal 'debtors' prisons'

Ohio law and a 1983 U.S. Supreme Court ruling prohibits judges from imprisoning people who can't afford to pay fines or court costs.

-------------------------------------------

The fact that so many judges on the bench don't even understand the very law they are administering is pretty alarming to me.

I wonder how many other Judges in other cities and states have misinterpreted the law or are completely ignorant of the law altogether as in this case here in Ohio. These Judges are now being ordered to let a lot of people out of jails and being told they can't do this. But think of how many people's lives they have screwed up, so many who may have lost jobs, or families because they were stuck behind bars for month's while they had a fine that kept tallying up week to week that they couldn't pay, all because a Judge was ignorant of the law.

Yet we are told as citizens that "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

Even more disgusting is the Rich Republitards in here that are perfectly OK with imprisoning debtors.

 

[Jaskalas]

Even more disgusting is the Rich Republitards in here that are perfectly OK with imprisoning debtors.

Who says that?

 

[Exophase]

What makes this most ridiculous is that even 30 days of incarceration will cost the state thousands of dollars, likely exceeding a lot of the petty debt that these people are jailed over.

 

[Oldgamer]

Who says that?

If you feel up to combing through some of the old posts about the debtors prison stuff you will find people saying stuff like "well if they don't pay the court fine, or speeding ticket" or something to that effect then they go to jail.. but the thing of it is, they get a fine imposed say 500 dollars and can't afford to pay it, then they get put in jail, and they rack up fees, interest rates at a weekly, monthly rate. All the while these people sit in jail and it balloons into a massive amount. This isn't legal according to the Supreme Court Justice who is saying that the jail time is considered payment. So essentially if you go to jail the jail time is payment. They can't hold people like that assessing fees on the fine and keep them in like that. If you can't pay the 500 dollars you spend a weekend in jail or a week, and the debt is paid that way, then they release you. They can't say we hold you until you can pay the 500 dollars and we get to tack on fees and interest also.

 

[Oldgamer]

Most poor people would just choose jail time, because they couldn't afford to pay hefty fines. They knew they would get out in say 2-3 days depending on the minor infraction. Then these Judges and courts starting doing this illegal thing, of holding them till their families came up with the money, plus interest and fees, etc. Hence the "Debtors Prison". This is illegal. I always said this wasn't right. I never understood why so many people thought this was ok, or acceptable.

 

[alcoholbob]

Oh I see, so it's ok to excuse a Judge for being ignorant of the law but not the citizens?

I literally had a Judge tell me to my face years ago, "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

It's fine because they have authority and you have none. Come back when you are in law enforcement or a judge yourself.

 

[Oldgamer]

It's fine because they have authority and you have none. Come back when you are in law enforcement or a judge yourself.

Well it looks like the Supreme Court disagrees in this case.. and no I think if a Judge does something illegal and claims he didn't know the law he sets himself up for a big liability on a civil basis.

 

[zanejohnson]

wait wait.... if this is the case than i've literally NEVER been to jail except for a debt.


besides twice... mandatory sentence for possession of marijuana was 6 months probated, motion to revoke probation on the last month because i was late on a payment (earlier payment in the 6 month period, they just waited until the last month to revoke, to get all my money, and then also make me sit in jail for (~ended up requesting a plea bargain from jail and getting out in 14 days)

possession of controlled substance (c 3 controlled substance) x 2 6 months mandatory incarceration, i did just over 120 days with good time.. no fines/fees (was a plea bargain from original 2 counts of posession of a dangerous drug, which is a felony, in court, i was offered the lesser charge because i was in fact in possession of hydrocodone, a class 3 narcotic)


every single other time it's been for what is called "Capius Profine" where you sit out the amount of your fines and court costs at a rate of 50 dollars a day..

i've been SEVERAL TIMES in jail for a week, to pay off a 350 dollar driving while license invalid class c misdemeaner.... twice i've sat out the 400 dollar fine for public intoxication... 7-8 days in county...

is this the type of thing they are talking about???

if so, Texas does this on a regular basis, every county.

lol what happens in other states where people just refuse to pay fines/fees?

 

[DominionSeraph]

When Congress passes 2,000+ page bills, which then expand to more than 20,000 pages of regulation... who is going to read it all? No one.

Judges these days don't stand a chance in hell of grasping every aspect of US law. There is simply too much of it.

Conservatards gonna 'tard. It's getting quite boring that it never ends. Public schooling through grade 12 seems to have resulted in nothing for you people.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Conservatards gonna 'tard. It's getting quite boring that it never ends. Public schooling through grade 12 seems to have resulted in nothing for you people.

He isn't wrong about that statement you quoted, not in the least.

 

[glenn1]

What makes this most ridiculous is that even 30 days of incarceration will cost the state thousands of dollars, likely exceeding a lot of the petty debt that these people are jailed over.

While true there's also the principle that people should pay their debts. If a court has no way to enforce any fines or court costs then you might as well not even have police enforce the laws or arrest people.

 

[TerryMathews]

Conservatards gonna 'tard. It's getting quite boring that it never ends. Public schooling through grade 12 seems to have resulted in nothing for you people.

And yet this pearl of wisdom came straight out of the Democratic party: Pelosi: "We Have to Pass the Bill So That You Can…: http://youtu.be/hV-05TLiiLU

 

[MongGrel]

Catch - 22 Explained



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yeGMaT3PvI

 

[Oldgamer]

In some states they credit you a certain amount of money each day you sit in jail and that goes toward your fine or fines or court costs, etc. In this case (per the article) they are to credit the person $50 dollars a day for each day they sit behind bars.

 

[zanejohnson]

In some states they credit you a certain amount of money each day you sit in jail and that goes toward your fine or fines or court costs, etc. In this case (per the article) they are to credit the person $50 dollars a day for each day they sit behind bars.

that's how it is in Texas, all over texas.


however, one county north of me, in Love county, Oklahoma... it's 5 dollars a day...no shit... i'd imagine this is the types who will be getting in trouble over this

 

[Oldgamer]

that's how it is in Texas, all over texas.


however, one county north of me, in Love county, Oklahoma... it's 5 dollars a day...no shit... i'd imagine this is the types who will be getting in trouble over this

This is why the article is saying that in this state they are in trouble and the SC Judge said they can't jail people indefinitely like that. But if you read the article there seem to be many Judges that don't understand the laws or misinterpret them. The ACLU and many others are having to take these things to the courts to stop them and make it public so people are educated about it.

 

[Spungo]

wait wait.... if this is the case than i've literally NEVER been to jail except for a debt.

Welcome to America. If you have enough money, you can literally get away with murder. If you're broke, you get the chair. Think of it like a chemistry problem in high school where you write down the net reaction:
crime + money = 0
crime + 0 = jail
Crime is part of the reaction, but it's common to both cases, so it gets subtracted out, and you're left with the net reaction of:
money = no jail, or
no money = jail

You can learn more about chemistry math here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQIqcT9a7DY#t=214

 

[DominionSeraph]

He isn't wrong about that statement you quoted, not in the least.

vvv

Conservatards gonna 'tard. It's getting quite boring that it never ends. Public schooling through grade 12 seems to have resulted in nothing for you people.

It's nice that you queued up for it, but it really wasn't necessary. It already included you.

 

[werepossum]

When Congress passes 2,000+ page bills, which then expand to more than 20,000 pages of regulation... who is going to read it all? No one.

Judges these days don't stand a chance in hell of grasping every aspect of US law. There is simply too much of it.

That is a good point, but . . .

Oh I see, so it's ok to excuse a Judge for being ignorant of the law but not the citizens?

I literally had a Judge tell me to my face years ago, "ignorance of the law is no excuse".

This is a gooder point.

wait wait.... if this is the case than i've literally NEVER been to jail except for a debt.


besides twice... mandatory sentence for possession of marijuana was 6 months probated, motion to revoke probation on the last month because i was late on a payment (earlier payment in the 6 month period, they just waited until the last month to revoke, to get all my money, and then also make me sit in jail for (~ended up requesting a plea bargain from jail and getting out in 14 days)

possession of controlled substance (c 3 controlled substance) x 2 6 months mandatory incarceration, i did just over 120 days with good time.. no fines/fees (was a plea bargain from original 2 counts of posession of a dangerous drug, which is a felony, in court, i was offered the lesser charge because i was in fact in possession of hydrocodone, a class 3 narcotic)


every single other time it's been for what is called "Capius Profine" where you sit out the amount of your fines and court costs at a rate of 50 dollars a day..

i've been SEVERAL TIMES in jail for a week, to pay off a 350 dollar driving while license invalid class c misdemeaner.... twice i've sat out the 400 dollar fine for public intoxication... 7-8 days in county...

is this the type of thing they are talking about???

if so, Texas does this on a regular basis, every county.

lol what happens in other states where people just refuse to pay fines/fees?

I'm not saying you shouldn't have gone to jail for those things, but it is bordering on the farcical when the state does not sentence to jail for something but then does send you to jail for not paying the fine for the offense judged not worth jail time. Someone's losing sight of the big picture.

I say bring back caning. If asked to choose between punitive fines, jail time, and a caning, I suspect most of us would choose the physical punishment. Or is that just my kinky side?

 

[Fern]

The article indicates this is not a widespread problem, but rather an isolated one:

Adrine said he wasn't aware of any instance in which a Cleveland Municipal Court judge has imprisoned someone who couldn't pay a fine or court costs, but added that he "wouldn't be surprised" to hear that it's happened.

It's hard to tell how many Ohioans are being imprisoned today when they can't pay debts, as the practice is illegal, Brickner said.

But since the ACLU of Ohio's report came out last year, he said, his organization has received complaints about jailing debtors from half of the state's 88 counties. The ACLU is still investigating the tips to see if they're valid.

Isolated cases of illegally jailed debtors are likely to continue to pop up in Ohio, Brickner said, especially in rural areas and in Ohio's 300 or so mayor's courts, which are operated by cities and towns largely outside the state's judicial system.

To the extent it's a problem, it may be driven by Ohio's system that has courts operated outside the state's judicial system. Never heard of such a thing.

Fern

 

[Exophase]

While true there's also the principle that people should pay their debts. If a court has no way to enforce any fines or court costs then you might as well not even have police enforce the laws or arrest people.

There are other ways for the state to get people to pay debt or other punishments that aren't taken to the extreme of incarceration. And a lot of the time fees really are at least about generating more government revenue than they are about acting as a deterrent.

Look at it this way, do you really think a $100 fine is the same for everyone? For people with a lot of money it barely makes a difference, while for people who have little money it could mean the difference between being able to make rent or not. But government fines are rarely scaled to what the person can afford to pay. I don't really envy someone who gets out of not paying a fine because they're flat broke. Throwing them in jail can be a much more devastating punishment too.