Offshore outsourcing

[darrelld]

1/15/04

There has been a trend lately for U.S. companies to lay off American workers by the thousands and outsource the labor offshore to countries such as India, Philippines, and Jamaica. As with everything there are two sides to this. One from the greedy CEO's position, and one from the unemployed working stiff.

It is my personal opinion that this practice is immoral and detrimental to the American economy. I wouldn't expect any relief from Bush on this issue, he supports this practice and has outsourced his fund raising campaign to Noida Gurgaon, India.

As I am to busy to put together a list of companies that are doing this (it is a big one), my suggestion is to research the products you buy, and alternatively purchase your products from companies that don't partake in this practice. Also, find out what your representatives stance is, make your opinion known to them, and make this issue paramount when voting this fall.

Don?t take my word for it, do your own research and if you are as appalled as I was at the effect this is having on this country, then please forward this or write your own and send to everyone you can.



A recent example is the elimination of 1300 call center jobs for Earthlink in Pennsylvania and California bringing the grand total of American jobs lost overseas at Earthlink to close to 3000 since 2002.

Now multiply this by the hundreds of corporations engaged in this practice and the number of displaced jobs is staggering.



To my friends in the north and in the UK, America is not the only country affected by this trend, it is happening to you too!



Here is a source for more info http://www.oocenter.com/forumdisplay.php?s=804e9d390ce6ed41c8dc140c9c18e5b4&forumid=2



Thank you for your time,

Darrell Brown

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

So what about those scenarios where, for example, you can't *find* an American qualified to do a certain job? I can tell you that this happens *all the time* in the technical field, especially for large scale design jobs involving networks, electronics and other such functions. I've worked with a lot of people who were brought in from other countries because Americans weren't up to snuff. Would you stand against that practice? Should companies hire a less-qualified American just because he's an American?

Jason

 

[dirtboy]

Outsourcing is nothing new and it has been going on for years. The tech bubble and the demand for companies to make themselves profitable once again has accelerated this trend recently.

 

[darrelld]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
So what about those scenarios where, for example, you can't *find* an American qualified to do a certain job? I can tell you that this happens *all the time* in the technical field, especially for large scale design jobs involving networks, electronics and other such functions. I've worked with a lot of people who were brought in from other countries because Americans weren't up to snuff. Would you stand against that practice? Should companies hire a less-qualified American just because he's an American?

Jason

What I'm talking about isn't the hiring of more qualified workers, there is nothing wrong with that, that is a result of our inferior education system. I anm only concerned about mass lay-offs for the sole purpose of improving bottom lines.

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

I'll buy the cheapest products that maximize my utility, but thanks for your advice.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
I'll buy the cheapest products that maximize my utility, but thanks for your advice.

Just wait until YOUR job is outsourced :|

 

[alchemize]

Perhaps there might be a 3rd viewpoint, the shareholder's opinion?

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Originally posted by: Ultima

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
I'll buy the cheapest products that maximize my utility, but thanks for your advice.

Just wait until YOUR job is outsourced :|

I wish it were....work is so overrated nowadays.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Ultima

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
I'll buy the cheapest products that maximize my utility, but thanks for your advice.

Just wait until YOUR job is outsourced :|

I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job.

I empathize with people who lose their jobs from outsourcing or, well, ANY cause that they have no control over, but you know what? That's life. Life is FILLED with things you can't control, and that's just the way it is. All you have control over is how YOU react to things. Your best bet is to train yourself to always keep your sights set high, don't let yourself get too outdated and always be ready and enthusiastic for a change of pace!

Jason

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Ultima

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
I'll buy the cheapest products that maximize my utility, but thanks for your advice.

Just wait until YOUR job is outsourced :|

I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job.

I empathize with people who lose their jobs from outsourcing or, well, ANY cause that they have no control over, but you know what? That's life. Life is FILLED with things you can't control, and that's just the way it is. All you have control over is how YOU react to things. Your best bet is to train yourself to always keep your sights set high, don't let yourself get too outdated and always be ready and enthusiastic for a change of pace!

Jason

I think this is more than just about a persons ability to bounce back and find something else to do. What does the 18 year old going off to college think? Sure he wants to be a CS major but he does not want to live in India. So he goes into another field. As do many of the kids his age. This will put America at a disadvantage in the long run. Soon our universities will be graduating millions of business majors rather than people with technical degrees.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

I don't know about that. There are more Technical schools turning out technical people who are specialized in various disciplines today than ever before, outsourcing be damned. I suppose it's possible that could change, in fact, I'd bet on it at some point, but I couldn't tell you what direction it will go.

I can tell you that I've been in Network Engineering/Administration for almost 10 years, and I'm going back to school for a degree in Visual Art just because I'm tired of the boredom of the technical industry. Once I graduate and can move into my new field (hopefully game development) there'll be at least one more technical job available

Jason

 

[Witling]

The Draggin' Master observes, "I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job."

Well, Bully for you. It's not that any single individual can't go out and do something else, it's that when whole industries get plowed under, not everyone in that industry can go out and get a job. Or, more accurately, not everyone can go out and get an equivalent job.

I wish you well at visual arts (whatever that is), but practice saying, "Would you like to supersize that sir?"

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: darrelld
1/15/04

There has been a trend lately for U.S. companies to lay off American workers by the thousands and outsource the labor offshore to countries such as India, Philippines, and Jamaica. As with everything there are two sides to this. One from the greedy CEO's position, and one from the unemployed working stiff.

It is my personal opinion that this practice is immoral and detrimental to the American economy. I wouldn't expect any relief from Bush on this issue, he supports this practice and has outsourced his fund raising campaign to Noida Gurgaon, India.

As I am to busy to put together a list of companies that are doing this (it is a big one), my suggestion is to research the products you buy, and alternatively purchase your products from companies that don't partake in this practice. Also, find out what your representatives stance is, make your opinion known to them, and make this issue paramount when voting this fall.

Don?t take my word for it, do your own research and if you are as appalled as I was at the effect this is having on this country, then please forward this or write your own and send to everyone you can.



A recent example is the elimination of 1300 call center jobs for Earthlink in Pennsylvania and California bringing the grand total of American jobs lost overseas at Earthlink to close to 3000 since 2002.

Now multiply this by the hundreds of corporations engaged in this practice and the number of displaced jobs is staggering.



To my friends in the north and in the UK, America is not the only country affected by this trend, it is happening to you too!



Here is a source for more info http://www.oocenter.com/forumdisplay.php?s=804e9d390ce6ed41c8dc140c9c18e5b4&forumid=2



Thank you for your time,

Darrell Brown

Look down to "Exporting America", the link there shows a list of US corps exporting Jobs.

 

[darrelld]

Thx for the link

 

[ITJunkie]

I think you will end finding companies that realize what a mistake outsourcing has become. If I remember right, recently Dell brought their Business support call center back stateside because their business clients raised a stink.

I think as consumers we do have a say but it requires putting the screws to these stupid corporations that lack the vision to see long term. This will come back to bite them in @$$ when their support starts to suffer from lack of timely response.

FWIW...I think the smart company would stay stateside and use it as a PR tool.

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job.

Many very successful people have your attitude. I've heard many people who have lost their jobs and had to reinvent themselves by going back to school or learning a new skill. This concept wasn't very common in the past, but it's starting to be. People should prepare to make changes in their lives and not live outside their means and have some money set aside for unexpected events. Or I guess one could cry, whine and blame other people for their misfortune.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Whitling
The Draggin' Master observes, "I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job."

Well, Bully for you. It's not that any single individual can't go out and do something else, it's that when whole industries get plowed under, not everyone in that industry can go out and get a job. Or, more accurately, not everyone can go out and get an equivalent job.

I wish you well at visual arts (whatever that is), but practice saying, "Would you like to supersize that sir?"

I can't see how the US standard of living can fail to fall, as it rises elsewhere. Business will go to the cheapest place, and the cheapest place is just about anywhere else. The only way to avoid it is legislation, and I see some here who would rather be broke or out of a job than do that, or so they think for now.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Whitling
The Draggin' Master observes, "I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job."

Well, Bully for you. It's not that any single individual can't go out and do something else, it's that when whole industries get plowed under, not everyone in that industry can go out and get a job. Or, more accurately, not everyone can go out and get an equivalent job.

I wish you well at visual arts (whatever that is), but practice saying, "Would you like to supersize that sir?"

I can't see how the US standard of living can fail to fall, as it rises elsewhere. Business will go to the cheapest place, and the cheapest place is just about anywhere else. The only way to avoid it is legislation, and I see some here who would rather be broke or out of a job than do that, or so they think for now.

There is no way to legislate india from producing 50k CS majors a year. We are going to be competing with them, even if our public does not want to. About the only thing we can do is make sure we are graduating more technical people, while attracting their best and brightest to work for US companies(at home and abroad).

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Whitling
The Draggin' Master observes, "I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job."

Well, Bully for you. It's not that any single individual can't go out and do something else, it's that when whole industries get plowed under, not everyone in that industry can go out and get a job. Or, more accurately, not everyone can go out and get an equivalent job.

I wish you well at visual arts (whatever that is), but practice saying, "Would you like to supersize that sir?"

I can't see how the US standard of living can fail to fall, as it rises elsewhere. Business will go to the cheapest place, and the cheapest place is just about anywhere else. The only way to avoid it is legislation, and I see some here who would rather be broke or out of a job than do that, or so they think for now.

There is no way to legislate india from producing 50k CS majors a year. We are going to be competing with them, even if our public does not want to. About the only thing we can do is make sure we are graduating more technical people, while attracting their best and brightest to work for US companies(at home and abroad).

No, I dont think we can. Engineers too. So we graduate 100k a year.

Now, how do you do this? You have to pay these people. Trying to entice bright scientists and engineers with a 10k salary wont fly.


As far as best and brightest? Who cares?

On the balance sheet, 10 very good and very smart people is easier to justify to the stockholders than 1 best and brightest. People are and will continue to look at potential cost savings and make decisions on that.

I am not hopeful for many here long term.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Whitling
The Draggin' Master observes, "I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job."

Well, Bully for you. It's not that any single individual can't go out and do something else, it's that when whole industries get plowed under, not everyone in that industry can go out and get a job. Or, more accurately, not everyone can go out and get an equivalent job.

I wish you well at visual arts (whatever that is), but practice saying, "Would you like to supersize that sir?"

I can't see how the US standard of living can fail to fall, as it rises elsewhere. Business will go to the cheapest place, and the cheapest place is just about anywhere else. The only way to avoid it is legislation, and I see some here who would rather be broke or out of a job than do that, or so they think for now.

There is no way to legislate india from producing 50k CS majors a year. We are going to be competing with them, even if our public does not want to. About the only thing we can do is make sure we are graduating more technical people, while attracting their best and brightest to work for US companies(at home and abroad).

No, I dont think we can. Engineers too. So we graduate 100k a year.

Now, how do you do this? You have to pay these people. Trying to entice bright scientists and engineers with a 10k salary wont fly.


Not real sure what you are trying to say here. We need to continue to produce more people with math and science skills.

As far as best and brightest? Who cares?

On the balance sheet, 10 very good and very smart people is easier to justify to the stockholders than 1 best and brightest. People are and will continue to look at potential cost savings and make decisions on that.

I am not hopeful for many here long term.

There is value in taking their best and brightest. These people tend to more productive and are capable of more things. Also removing their best and brightest, handicaps those who lose them.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Whitling
The Draggin' Master observes, "I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job."

Well, Bully for you. It's not that any single individual can't go out and do something else, it's that when whole industries get plowed under, not everyone in that industry can go out and get a job. Or, more accurately, not everyone can go out and get an equivalent job.

I wish you well at visual arts (whatever that is), but practice saying, "Would you like to supersize that sir?"

I can't see how the US standard of living can fail to fall, as it rises elsewhere. Business will go to the cheapest place, and the cheapest place is just about anywhere else. The only way to avoid it is legislation, and I see some here who would rather be broke or out of a job than do that, or so they think for now.

There is no way to legislate india from producing 50k CS majors a year. We are going to be competing with them, even if our public does not want to. About the only thing we can do is make sure we are graduating more technical people, while attracting their best and brightest to work for US companies(at home and abroad).

No, I dont think we can. Engineers too. So we graduate 100k a year.

Now, how do you do this? You have to pay these people. Trying to entice bright scientists and engineers with a 10k salary wont fly.


Not real sure what you are trying to say here. We need to continue to produce more people with math and science skills.

As far as best and brightest? Who cares?

On the balance sheet, 10 very good and very smart people is easier to justify to the stockholders than 1 best and brightest. People are and will continue to look at potential cost savings and make decisions on that.

I am not hopeful for many here long term.

There is value in taking their best and brightest. These people tend to more productive and are capable of more things. Also removing their best and brightest, handicaps those who lose them.

In your prior post you remarked that we cannot legislate the number of CS grads (and I presume other technical professionals) from being graduated. We COULD put more into circulation, but you have to pay them enough to make it worth their while. One reason an engineer is highly paid is because of supply and demand. I choose engineering, because I have some familiarity with the field. Now instead of 1 applicant, you have 10. What does that do to wages here? It drives them down sharply. If that happens, then people will choose other things to do. That in turn causes a shortfall, and wages go back up. Professionals will make more money due to the fact that what they do is in demand, but harder to do than a laborer.

While we do all this, what happens in India and China? Nothing. They are still producing lots of grads, and bean counters are still looking for the cheapest way out that does the job.

So we still have the same problems.

We are not going to suck all the good people into the US, charge 5 times what the competition does, and shareholders swallow it.

I hate to say this kind of thing, because I have no good answer as to how to prevent it. As the situation around the rest of the world improves, there must be a redistribution of wealth.

Good for them, however, not so good for us.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Whitling
The Draggin' Master observes, "I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job."

Well, Bully for you. It's not that any single individual can't go out and do something else, it's that when whole industries get plowed under, not everyone in that industry can go out and get a job. Or, more accurately, not everyone can go out and get an equivalent job.

I wish you well at visual arts (whatever that is), but practice saying, "Would you like to supersize that sir?"

I can't see how the US standard of living can fail to fall, as it rises elsewhere. Business will go to the cheapest place, and the cheapest place is just about anywhere else. The only way to avoid it is legislation, and I see some here who would rather be broke or out of a job than do that, or so they think for now.

There is no way to legislate india from producing 50k CS majors a year. We are going to be competing with them, even if our public does not want to. About the only thing we can do is make sure we are graduating more technical people, while attracting their best and brightest to work for US companies(at home and abroad).

No, I dont think we can. Engineers too. So we graduate 100k a year.

Now, how do you do this? You have to pay these people. Trying to entice bright scientists and engineers with a 10k salary wont fly.


Not real sure what you are trying to say here. We need to continue to produce more people with math and science skills.

As far as best and brightest? Who cares?

On the balance sheet, 10 very good and very smart people is easier to justify to the stockholders than 1 best and brightest. People are and will continue to look at potential cost savings and make decisions on that.

I am not hopeful for many here long term.

There is value in taking their best and brightest. These people tend to more productive and are capable of more things. Also removing their best and brightest, handicaps those who lose them.

In your prior post you remarked that we cannot legislate the number of CS grads (and I presume other technical professionals) from being graduated. We COULD put more into circulation, but you have to pay them enough to make it worth their while. One reason an engineer is highly paid is because of supply and demand. I choose engineering, because I have some familiarity with the field. Now instead of 1 applicant, you have 10. What does that do to wages here? It drives them down sharply. If that happens, then people will choose other things to do. That in turn causes a shortfall, and wages go back up. Professionals will make more money due to the fact that what they do is in demand, but harder to do than a laborer.

While we do all this, what happens in India and China? Nothing. They are still producing lots of grads, and bean counters are still looking for the cheapest way out that does the job.

So we still have the same problems.

We are not going to suck all the good people into the US, charge 5 times what the competition does, and shareholders swallow it.

I hate to say this kind of thing, because I have no good answer as to how to prevent it. As the situation around the rest of the world improves, there must be a redistribution of wealth.

Good for them, however, not so good for us.

There is nothing we can do to prevent this, the best we can do is take advantage of it. We need to make sure we have enough technical and engineering folks to ensure we maintain a technical edge.

Wages in india and china are rising quickly and wages are still increasing here as well. I dont see this as a race to the bottom as many people do.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Whitling
The Draggin' Master observes, "I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job."

Well, Bully for you. It's not that any single individual can't go out and do something else, it's that when whole industries get plowed under, not everyone in that industry can go out and get a job. Or, more accurately, not everyone can go out and get an equivalent job.

I wish you well at visual arts (whatever that is), but practice saying, "Would you like to supersize that sir?"

I can't see how the US standard of living can fail to fall, as it rises elsewhere. Business will go to the cheapest place, and the cheapest place is just about anywhere else. The only way to avoid it is legislation, and I see some here who would rather be broke or out of a job than do that, or so they think for now.

LOL, I'll *never* work fast food again. Even if I couldn't manage a job in a VA related field such as game development (a *growing* field, I might point out) or something similar, I can still fall back on my IT skills, and that is a field that is never again going to be without some decent paying jobs. I'm already IN that field, already experienced, and that's a big leg up, even when switching specialties.

That said, and having read the rest of the thread now...I can't believe you guys are talking about human beings as if they were commodities for you to legislate, shove about and coerce to your perceived "needs". Legislating people and businesses so as to restrict action that isn't intentionally harmful (force or fraud) is not the right answer. The right answer is to let the market do as it will so long as people and businesses are behaving in an honest way, and just see what happens.

And yes, I WOULD rather be broke and out of a job than let you or anyone else sit around and direct the economy as if you were intelligent enough to comprehend and manage something so enromous, diverse and ever fluctuating. You MUST learn to accept that with Liberty comes uncertainty, and that's *perfectly* OK. Stop dreaming of the day when everything is "stable" and "secure" and you can count on the world not changing so much as to upset the flow of your day and just accept that such thoughts are a child's pipedream and nothing more.

Change, fluctuation and uncertainty are the law of Nature; don't fight it, understand it and follow it. Francis Bacon said that "Nature, in order to be commanded, must be obeyed." Every man should learn to understand what that means and make it the rhythm by which his heart beats.

Jason

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: darrelld
1/15/04

There has been a trend lately for U.S. companies to lay off American workers by the thousands and outsource the labor offshore to countries such as India, Philippines, and Jamaica. As with everything there are two sides to this. One from the greedy CEO's position, and one from the unemployed working stiff.

It is my personal opinion that this practice is immoral and detrimental to the American economy. I wouldn't expect any relief from Bush on this issue, he supports this practice and has outsourced his fund raising campaign to Noida Gurgaon, India.

As I am to busy to put together a list of companies that are doing this (it is a big one), my suggestion is to research the products you buy, and alternatively purchase your products from companies that don't partake in this practice. Also, find out what your representatives stance is, make your opinion known to them, and make this issue paramount when voting this fall.

Don?t take my word for it, do your own research and if you are as appalled as I was at the effect this is having on this country, then please forward this or write your own and send to everyone you can.



A recent example is the elimination of 1300 call center jobs for Earthlink in Pennsylvania and California bringing the grand total of American jobs lost overseas at Earthlink to close to 3000 since 2002.

Now multiply this by the hundreds of corporations engaged in this practice and the number of displaced jobs is staggering.



To my friends in the north and in the UK, America is not the only country affected by this trend, it is happening to you too!



Here is a source for more info http://www.oocenter.com/forumdisplay.php?s=804e9d390ce6ed41c8dc140c9c18e5b4&forumid=2



Thank you for your time,

Darrell Brown

Is this new to you guys in the US??? This has been going on since the fall of the wall. It is called globalization. Buísnesses do not have morals on profit margins and they need to be increased each year. You gys have just been lucky that u are big and isolated (geographically) so it didnt affect you as much (so far) also their are no enighbors that companies could easily outsource to ( maybe Mexico - but I wouldnt say Mexico has nearly the educated workforce that say Checkia, Poland, ... have). But now that it becomes more and more expensive to do things in the US as well as developing countries gain in technilogy and education it becomes profitable to even outsource to further destinations than close neighbors -> India, Philipines, China whatever.

Little example from Germany. On constructin yards: First it was the Portugese/Irish, they became too expensive, now it is Rumanian working more hours and earning nothing (well to little to make a living) soon it will be Chinese. All that money (the Rumanians work 60hrs a week for ?800) leaves the country and nothing goes into our economy. in the whole this is detrimental to the whole country but the Construction company owner - why should he care he can make a profit he actually has no chance. Would he employ german workers (they would need dunno 2-4 times as much) he wouldnt be competitive because all other companies use those cheap foreign labourers living in conteiners for the duration the work earning 800 Euros which is several times as much as a surgeon earns in thier home country.
It is a vicous cycle with no end - better be prepared to wrap the belt tighter....

 

[gsaldivar]

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
I'll buy the cheapest products that maximize my utility, but thanks for your advice.