Offshore outsourcing

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

Originally posted by: Whitling
The Draggin' Master observes, "I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job."

Well, Bully for you. It's not that any single individual can't go out and do something else, it's that when whole industries get plowed under, not everyone in that industry can go out and get a job. Or, more accurately, not everyone can go out and get an equivalent job.

I wish you well at visual arts (whatever that is), but practice saying, "Would you like to supersize that sir?"

I can't see how the US standard of living can fail to fall, as it rises elsewhere. Business will go to the cheapest place, and the cheapest place is just about anywhere else. The only way to avoid it is legislation, and I see some here who would rather be broke or out of a job than do that, or so they think for now.

LOL, I'll *never* work fast food again. Even if I couldn't manage a job in a VA related field such as game development (a *growing* field, I might point out) or something similar, I can still fall back on my IT skills, and that is a field that is never again going to be without some decent paying jobs. I'm already IN that field, already experienced, and that's a big leg up, even when switching specialties.

That said, and having read the rest of the thread now...I can't believe you guys are talking about human beings as if they were commodities for you to legislate, shove about and coerce to your perceived "needs". Legislating people and businesses so as to restrict action that isn't intentionally harmful (force or fraud) is not the right answer. The right answer is to let the market do as it will so long as people and businesses are behaving in an honest way, and just see what happens.

And yes, I WOULD rather be broke and out of a job than let you or anyone else sit around and direct the economy as if you were intelligent enough to comprehend and manage something so enromous, diverse and ever fluctuating. You MUST learn to accept that with Liberty comes uncertainty, and that's *perfectly* OK. Stop dreaming of the day when everything is "stable" and "secure" and you can count on the world not changing so much as to upset the flow of your day and just accept that such thoughts are a child's pipedream and nothing more.

Change, fluctuation and uncertainty are the law of Nature; don't fight it, understand it and follow it. Francis Bacon said that "Nature, in order to be commanded, must be obeyed." Every man should learn to understand what that means and make it the rhythm by which his heart beats.

Jason

"Let them eat cake"

People have families and need to take care of them as well.

Thanks for playing.

 

[XMan]

Food for thought.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: charrison

Wages in india and china are rising quickly and wages are still increasing here as well. I dont see this as a race to the bottom as many people do.

Wages going higher and no race to the bottom and don't for CH is the largest shareholder in that Bridge that was sold here.

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: X-Man
Food for thought.

Great article X!

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: dirtboy

Originally posted by: X-Man
Food for thought.

Great article X!

If you haven't already I would suggest you read Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economics by Thomas Sowell

He goes into great depth on this subject AND gives many examples.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: Ultima

Originally posted by: xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx
I'll buy the cheapest products that maximize my utility, but thanks for your advice.

Just wait until YOUR job is outsourced :|

I've had jobs outsourced, and you know what I did? I found a different job.

I empathize with people who lose their jobs from outsourcing or, well, ANY cause that they have no control over, but you know what? That's life. Life is FILLED with things you can't control, and that's just the way it is. All you have control over is how YOU react to things. Your best bet is to train yourself to always keep your sights set high, don't let yourself get too outdated and always be ready and enthusiastic for a change of pace!

Jason

I think this is more than just about a persons ability to bounce back and find something else to do. What does the 18 year old going off to college think? Sure he wants to be a CS major but he does not want to live in India. So he goes into another field. As do many of the kids his age. This will put America at a disadvantage in the long run. Soon our universities will be graduating millions of business majors rather than people with technical degrees.

We'll always have people and positions in technical positions. The best graduate schools in the world are here in the US.

Help desk type jobs are not technical, hi-tech positions. I personally don't care if they're all gone. I wouldn't mind if burger flipperes were all automated somehow.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

People have families and need to take care of them as well.

All the more reason they should embrace their responsibility, get themselves EDUCATED so they can get a decent job and take care of their families as they should. If you aren't able to AFFORD a family...little tip here... DON'T HAVE ONE. It is 100% within your power to NOT have children if you know you cannot afford it. Waiting until after you've fvcked up and then deciding you'll make SOMEONE ELSE pay for your mistakes is wrong.

I can't believe you are such an avid advocate of irresponsibility and theft. You MUST be a Christian...or a Socialist, not that there's a lot of difference...

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

We'll always have people and positions in technical positions. The best graduate schools in the world are here in the US.

Help desk type jobs are not technical, hi-tech positions. I personally don't care if they're all gone. I wouldn't mind if burger flipperes were all automated somehow.

No, help desk isn't high tech, that's for sure, but it is decent pay, certainly far better than burger flipper jobs, and there are LOTS of them out there. I would also be VERY glad to have those become 100% automated. Well, as close as they can, anyway, there's no such thing as 100% automated And on the bright side, all those automated systems have to have technical people who are generally paid pretty well, to maintain them and fix them when they break

Jason

 

[Ultima]

I'll never work fast food again either, did it for 3 months and it was the worst job ever. What I'm doing right now doesn't pay very high ($10 CDN) but it's a much better job than fast food

BTW, wait until all your games are made in India

I'm graduating from CS this year, but I'm worried about all the outsourcing crap.. even the teachers tell us not to be very hopeful of finding a job when we graduate. I mean, what kind of BS is that!? Why the fvck did I spend 3 years of my life for then?
I think now what I'm going to do is keep going to school and get a degree in business or something related, while doing whatever jobs I can find in IT or not. I've always wanted to run a business.. I never wanted to spend my whole life on a paycheck

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith

LOL, I'll *never* work fast food again. Even if I couldn't manage a job in a VA related field such as game development (a *growing* field, I might point out) or something similar, I can still fall back on my IT skills, and that is a field that is never again going to be without some decent paying jobs. I'm already IN that field, already experienced, and that's a big leg up, even when switching specialties.

That said, and having read the rest of the thread now...I can't believe you guys are talking about human beings as if they were commodities for you to legislate, shove about and coerce to your perceived "needs". Legislating people and businesses so as to restrict action that isn't intentionally harmful (force or fraud) is not the right answer. The right answer is to let the market do as it will so long as people and businesses are behaving in an honest way, and just see what happens.

And yes, I WOULD rather be broke and out of a job than let you or anyone else sit around and direct the economy as if you were intelligent enough to comprehend and manage something so enromous, diverse and ever fluctuating. You MUST learn to accept that with Liberty comes uncertainty, and that's *perfectly* OK. Stop dreaming of the day when everything is "stable" and "secure" and you can count on the world not changing so much as to upset the flow of your day and just accept that such thoughts are a child's pipedream and nothing more.

Change, fluctuation and uncertainty are the law of Nature; don't fight it, understand it and follow it. Francis Bacon said that "Nature, in order to be commanded, must be obeyed." Every man should learn to understand what that means and make it the rhythm by which his heart beats.

Jason

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

People have families and need to take care of them as well.

All the more reason they should embrace their responsibility, get themselves EDUCATED so they can get a decent job and take care of their families as they should. If you aren't able to AFFORD a family...little tip here... DON'T HAVE ONE. It is 100% within your power to NOT have children if you know you cannot afford it. Waiting until after you've fvcked up and then deciding you'll make SOMEONE ELSE pay for your mistakes is wrong.

I can't believe you are such an avid advocate of irresponsibility and theft. You MUST be a Christian...or a Socialist, not that there's a lot of difference...

Jason

Things are never absolute in life, but I somewhat agree with you. However, what's going to happen when there are no low-skill jobs left? People need money to become educated, and if they can't get a job to earn that money then you're looking at a catch 22. I'm finishing up college right now and just about every job I've done has been "low skill", though with the jobs getting better (and harder) as you go from 16 yrs to now. I started out with weeding which is pretty much as low as you can go, and right now I'm working as a dockman for a shipping company which is what I would say medium skill.. probably nearly anyone can do this job but it would take them a couple months to learn how to do it.

Take these jobs away and I would have no way to pay through college.

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: Ultima

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

People have families and need to take care of them as well.

All the more reason they should embrace their responsibility, get themselves EDUCATED so they can get a decent job and take care of their families as they should. If you aren't able to AFFORD a family...little tip here... DON'T HAVE ONE. It is 100% within your power to NOT have children if you know you cannot afford it. Waiting until after you've fvcked up and then deciding you'll make SOMEONE ELSE pay for your mistakes is wrong.

I can't believe you are such an avid advocate of irresponsibility and theft. You MUST be a Christian...or a Socialist, not that there's a lot of difference...

Jason

Things are never absolute in life, but I somewhat agree with you. However, what's going to happen when there are no low-skill jobs left? People need money to become educated, and if they can't get a job to earn that money then you're looking at a catch 22. I'm finishing up college right now and just about every job I've done has been "low skill", though with the jobs getting better (and harder) as you go from 16 yrs to now. I started out with weeding which is pretty much as low as you can go, and right now I'm working as a dockman for a shipping company which is what I would say medium skill.. probably nearly anyone can do this job but it would take them a couple months to learn how to do it.

Take these jobs away and I would have no way to pay through college.

You know I hear people say they cannot afford college. If you are unable to get an education in this country you are either stupid or lazy.

You may have to make a few sacrifices along the way.

There is a way THAT 99% of AMERICANS can get up to $50K for college. And you can also get vocational training along the way.

JOIN THE MILITARY.

Also if you are truely poor there is litterally MILLIONS OF DOLLARS availible to you in the way of scholarships and Student Loans.

Any person who does not have an education has one person to blame: Themselves.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: tm37

Originally posted by: Ultima

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

People have families and need to take care of them as well.

All the more reason they should embrace their responsibility, get themselves EDUCATED so they can get a decent job and take care of their families as they should. If you aren't able to AFFORD a family...little tip here... DON'T HAVE ONE. It is 100% within your power to NOT have children if you know you cannot afford it. Waiting until after you've fvcked up and then deciding you'll make SOMEONE ELSE pay for your mistakes is wrong.

I can't believe you are such an avid advocate of irresponsibility and theft. You MUST be a Christian...or a Socialist, not that there's a lot of difference...

Jason

Things are never absolute in life, but I somewhat agree with you. However, what's going to happen when there are no low-skill jobs left? People need money to become educated, and if they can't get a job to earn that money then you're looking at a catch 22. I'm finishing up college right now and just about every job I've done has been "low skill", though with the jobs getting better (and harder) as you go from 16 yrs to now. I started out with weeding which is pretty much as low as you can go, and right now I'm working as a dockman for a shipping company which is what I would say medium skill.. probably nearly anyone can do this job but it would take them a couple months to learn how to do it.

Take these jobs away and I would have no way to pay through college.

You know I hear people say they cannot afford college. If you are unable to get an education in this country you are either stupid or lazy.

You may have to make a few sacrifices along the way.

There is a way THAT 99% of AMERICANS can get up to $50K for college. And you can also get vocational training along the way.

JOIN THE MILITARY.

Also if you are truely poor there is litterally MILLIONS OF DOLLARS availible to you in the way of scholarships and Student Loans.

Any person who does not have an education has one person to blame: Themselves.

I don't live in your country, but I'll speak for my own country: If you want to go to college, you either have to live with your parents or work many hours in order to pay for it. If you live with your parents its perfect, they pay for all your food etc.. and college itself is cheap. I don't live with my parents, so I work a lot to have my own place and pay for my own food and go to college. Student loans? You're missing the point. College itself is cheap here (about $1000 per semester), but I have to pay for my god damn food and rent! College takes up a lot of time. It it wasn't for the jobs that I've gotten so far how do you expect me to pay for it? A $3000 student loan will only pay for a few months of expenses. I might be able to get one now, but last time I tried I was still living with my parents and got rejected.

Now I agree with you that most people CAN get it if they want to. But everyone needs help to get there. For me, that help was in the form of easy-to-get jobs so I can support myself. For others it may be parents, welfare, loans, who knows.

 

[Dman877]

This is called globalization, it's what the riots in seattle and cancun were about. Why build stuff here or europe where workers actually have rights when you can send it to a export-free zone somewhere like malaysia? These export-free zones are great for corporations, they are special industrial areas in 3rd world countries where the government, in an effort to make some money, exploits the environment and the local labor pool. They cut down on customs, they remove ALL environmental regulations, and they allow the empoyer to treat the workers any way they want. Wages of course are dirt cheap and... whats health-care? Corporations from the west are lured to these countries because manufacturing is so cheap and the government doesn't charge taxes on the export-free zones, as long as the corporations pay off the local government anyway.

This used to just happen to manufacterers. Watch Roger and Me by Michael Moore for a good example with GM. Now it's happening to telemarketers, customer service, and even engineering is starting to move to India. You can pay engineers in India (who are equally as capable, if not moreso then their American counterparts, go to any tech college in the states and you'll see a large Indian population) 40k a year for the same work you have to pay someone in America 100k+health coverage for.

When you go to walmart, everything you buy is coming from china. Walmart is the largest exporter from china, above any nation. Like those 20$ pants? if Americans made em they'd cost 40$. Globalization effects everyone everywhere. Levi just sent the rest of its manufacturing to malaysia btw, they laid off like 3000 people in the US and Canada when they closed the last factories here. The design teams, of course, will remain in the US.

If you follow this trend to its natural conclusion, every American or European will be some sort of designer (artistically), in the service industry, (cashier, teacher, doctor, lawyer, etc) manager, or owner. Everything else can be done overseas for less and the aforementioned occupations have the ability to decide where they want to live. No one wants to live in Malaysia, so if you own a company that makes widgets, you'll want to live in hometown, USA and work with a few customer reps and designers in your office, but for the sake of profit, everything else can be done in china, from lower management and engineering down to labor. What does this mean? Get educated, start a company, or move to Taiwan.

This is, of ocurse, the extreme view. There are still plenty of manufactoring and engineering jobs in this country. Is globalization a bad thing? Depends on your situation really. I'm sure most Americans like cheap stuff, of course when your company closes your plant and sends your job overseas, being able to buy cheap goods is little consolation. I'd like to see the world community agree on some working standards, things like living wages and safe working conditions.

Something else to consider is the effect of globalization on third world countries. Much of the labor in these countries comes off the farm. Farm life is tough but the transition to an industrial/capital economy is almost always a hard-suffered one for indigenous(sp?) peoples.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

People have families and need to take care of them as well.

All the more reason they should embrace their responsibility, get themselves EDUCATED so they can get a decent job and take care of their families as they should. If you aren't able to AFFORD a family...little tip here... DON'T HAVE ONE. It is 100% within your power to NOT have children if you know you cannot afford it. Waiting until after you've fvcked up and then deciding you'll make SOMEONE ELSE pay for your mistakes is wrong.

I can't believe you are such an avid advocate of irresponsibility and theft. You MUST be a Christian...or a Socialist, not that there's a lot of difference...

Jason

You are overcompensating again.

Professional help is just a phone call away. Why don't you call a shrink and share your angst with someone who cares?

 

[Harvey]

I wouldn't be suprised if this is what's behind Bush-lite's new push to Mars. It won't take long to export all those overpriced jobs from India and start exploiting all those ignorant Martians who can afford to work for less because they all live under those rocks we've been seeing on TV.

 

[her209]

We should outsource the CEO jobs. I mean, why pay them multi-million dollar salaries when someone is willing to work for less than $100,00. And do the job BETTER!

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: her209
We should outsource the CEO jobs. I mean, why pay them multi-million dollar salaries when someone is willing to work for less than $100,00. And do the job BETTER!

I'd doubt they could do the job better.

 

[zephyrprime]

There is no way to legislate india from producing 50k CS majors a year. We are going to be competing with them, even if our public does not want to. About the only thing we can do is make sure we are graduating more technical people,

Not real sure what you are trying to say here. We need to continue to produce more people with math and science skills.

Isn't this the exact opposite of what we should do? Think about it. Those sorts of technical people are being exported now so it makes sense to produce less. Conventional wisdom is being turned on its head.

Unfortunately, we can't produce more business type people to make up for the losts jobs either since both China and India place major limits on foreign investements (just try buying some chinese mutual funds like I did. You can't.) and they don't buy any products from us. Except for debt that is. That's one of the reasons we can finance such a huge national debt and run such low interest rates. China only does this to keep the exchange rate low so we'll keep buying. A strong dollar is not to America's benefit any more.