Officially undecided for POTUS

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DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
To the OP:
Reality check: our system of government favors there being 2 parties, not 3. If you watch Star Wars, it's sort of like the Sith. Always 2. There's almost 240 years of history of this. The only way a 3rd party is going to gain traction is if one of the other major parties loses a ton of popularity, and more or less transforms into that 3rd party - which really represents one party splintering into two, and one of those halves winning - the other half doesn't stick around; it dies. Unless a 3rd party candidate who appeals to a high enough percentage of all voters on both sides comes along, your vote for a nonviable candidate, while "sending a message" really is a wasted vote and can have consequences that you would rather not have had.

There are two choices this election. Hillary and Trump. Hillary is known for some lying. Ditto Trump. Ditto pretty much every political candidate; yes, even Bernie. I've pointed out before though that the Republicans have engaged in character assassination against Hillary for more than two decades now. Some of it deserved, but much more of it for political purposes. The general level of hatred toward her is probably a lot higher than it really should be based on an honest assessment of what she has done, compared to any other politician.


Now, when is the last time in a Presidential election that you heard of major players in one party say they will not support their party's candidate and are going to vote for the other party's candidate for President? When is the last time in a Presidential election that very high ranking party members who seem to have at least a little bit of integrity, have refused to endorse their candidate? When is the last time people aligned with one party, but with a great deal of respect from both sides for honesty (E.g., George Will) came out against their own party's candidate for President. I'm sure in the past, people have kept their mouths shut, but this year, more and more of their own party are voicing that Trump is unfit. Trump has suggested other countries arm themselves with nuclear weapons to defend themselves. Trump has very recently questioned why we don't use nukes if we have them. Trump has outlined policies which would destroy the positive relationships we have with many international allies. Seriously, wtf is wrong with people who think, "I'm not going to vote for the status quo candidate," and not realize that one candidate represents things being a whole lot worse than the status quo.
 
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Gooberlx2

Lifer
May 4, 2001
15,381
6
91
Wtf? No, your analysis is just plain wrong. You do realize that all of the votes statewide are tallied, right? You'd need to look at Nader's votes state wide. They don't count the number of counties you won to determine the winner of the state - they count all the votes added together.

Oh you're right. For some reason I thought Florida's electoral votes were split by district.
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,650
132
106
Yup, it is really tough to think about voting for either Clinton or Trump... The problem is for the most part a vote for the libertarian party is one less vote for reps... On the other side a vote for the green is really a vote less for dems... So if you vote 3rd party, it almost always hurts the closest side to your ideology. A good example of that is in 2000. RAlph Nader got nearly 3% of the vote. Those people that voted Nader would much rather Gore won over Bush, but they are literally the ones that lost it for him.

Supposedly the Nader votes equally took from Bush and Gore.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
I'm not voting for either one. The choices this go around blow. Neither party tried at all.


Not going into why both candidates are completely unqualified douchebags that don't deserve to be anywhere near the WhiteHouse, but they both are. (The reasons have been gone over 1,000 times in countless other threads.)
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
I'm not voting for either one. The choices this go around blow. Neither party tried at all.


Not going into why both candidates are completely unqualified douchebags that don't deserve to be anywhere near the WhiteHouse, but they both are. (The reasons have been gone over 1,000 times in countless other threads.)

Same here. And yet the partisans continue to warn "you're wasting your vote" and offering "worse evils" reasons to vote for one or the other. There is no 'worse' between them, both are unacceptably bad candidates that don't deserve votes.
 

Joepublic2

Golden Member
Jan 22, 2005
1,114
6
76
I don't get the attitude that voting 3rd party doesn't matter and causes the greater evil to win. It could if you live in a swing state, but the clinton campaign picked up some of sander's platform ideas, for example, so if your state is going to go red or blue anyway why not protest vote a 3rd party?
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
I don't get the attitude that voting 3rd party doesn't matter and causes the greater evil to win. It could if you live in a swing state, but the clinton campaign picked up some of sander's platform ideas, for example, so if your state is going to go red or blue anyway why not protest vote a 3rd party?
Because in this election, there's no way to be sure - especially if you think your state is probably going to go red. (At least right now.)
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
To the OP:
Reality check: our system of government favors there being 2 parties, not 3. If you watch Star Wars, it's sort of like the Sith. Always 2. There's almost 240 years of history of this. The only way a 3rd party is going to gain traction is if one of the other major parties loses a ton of popularity, and more or less transforms into that 3rd party - which really represents one party splintering into two, and one of those halves winning - the other half doesn't stick around; it dies. Unless a 3rd party candidate who appeals to a high enough percentage of all voters on both sides comes along, your vote for a nonviable candidate, while "sending a message" really is a wasted vote and can have consequences that you would rather not have had.

There are two choices this election. Hillary and Trump. Hillary is known for some lying. Ditto Trump. Ditto pretty much every political candidate; yes, even Bernie. I've pointed out before though that the Republicans have engaged in character assassination against Hillary for more than two decades now. Some of it deserved, but much more of it for political purposes. The general level of hatred toward her is probably a lot higher than it really should be based on an honest assessment of what she has done, compared to any other politician.


Now, when is the last time in a Presidential election that you heard of major players in one party say they will not support their party's candidate and are going to vote for the other party's candidate for President? When is the last time in a Presidential election that very high ranking party members who seem to have at least a little bit of integrity, have refused to endorse their candidate? When is the last time people aligned with one party, but with a great deal of respect from both sides for honesty (E.g., George Will) came out against their own party's candidate for President. I'm sure in the past, people have kept their mouths shut, but this year, more and more of their own party are voicing that Trump is unfit. Trump has suggested other countries arm themselves with nuclear weapons to defend themselves. Trump has very recently questioned why we don't use nukes if we have them. Trump has outlined policies which would destroy the positive relationships we have with many international allies. Seriously, wtf is wrong with people who think, "I'm not going to vote for the status quo candidate," and not realize that one candidate represents things being a whole lot worse than the status quo.
This. This should be aired on every broadcast station in the US until the election.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,562
29,171
146
Because in this election, there's no way to be sure - especially if you think your state is probably going to go red. (At least right now.)

I live in a state that Nate Silver currently predicts as the biggest winner for Clinton: MD @ 99.9% chance vs Mussolini's 0.01% chance.

I'm reasonably confident that voting for Johnson in my district and state isn't going to harm Hillary's chances, but I certainly would not be doing that if I were voting in NC, or Pennsylvania, Ohio, FL, etc.

I wouldn't support a 3rd party thinking that a 3rd party would ever win, but it is because of what you said: the increased support of 3rd party platforms and candidates forces the major parties to pay attention. Platforms get adopted and voters get cannibalized. This happened with Perot's message in 92.

The most likely scenario this year is that the GOP as it stands (well, stood about a year ago) is gone after this election. I think that Trump has successfully aired the party's dirty laundry and his loss is going to disillusion those old (and mostly new) voters to jump ship. That, and the GOP establishment will probably have to stop the dog whistling strategy of the last 4 decades, reign in their messaging, and stop giving any fodder for the type of policy-agnostic, single-issue racists and xenophobes they have courting for so long. I feel that Johnson supporters and voters would be most amenable to a renewed GOP that looks a bit something like the GOP of Eisenhower and earlier, so they have a lot of potential ground to gain if they manage to reform their platform and draw supporters back into a party of real small government and tax reform.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,606
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Johnson all the way. Shillary is..well, a shill. So that's a no vote. Trump is..well, Trump. So that's a no vote.
 

openwheel

Platinum Member
Apr 30, 2012
2,044
17
81
LOL at all the people voting for Johnson. Trump says thank you for your vote. Bunch of morons.

Those equating Hillary to Trump. Trump says thank you for being so easily brainwashed.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,562
29,171
146
LOL at all the people voting for Johnson. Trump says thank you for your vote. Bunch of morons.

Those equating Hillary to Trump. Trump says thank you for being so easily brainwashed.

It seems to me that the majority of Johnson voters (Assuming the voter would otherwise vote for one of the other 2 candidates) would have been Trump voters.

Like Perot (and unlike Nader), he is probably siphoning more votes from the republican candidate than the democrat candidate. There is also a significant number of Johnson voters that probably wouldn't vote otherwise, so I doubt it matters all that much. The only way that kind of voter would effect the outcome is if Johnson somehow manages enough EC votes to prevent a majority win of 270--and that isn't going to happen.
 
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openwheel

Platinum Member
Apr 30, 2012
2,044
17
81
It seems to me that the majority of Johnson voters (Assuming the voter would otherwise vote for one of the other 2 candidates) would have been Trump voters.

Like Perot (and unlike Nader), he is probably siphoning more votes from the republican candidate than the democrat candidate. There is also a significant number of Johnson voters that probably wouldn't vote otherwise, so I doubt it matters all that much. The only way that kind of voter would effect the outcome is if Johnson somehow manages enough EC votes to prevent a majority win of 270--and that isn't going to happen.

Wishful thinking dude, you are under estimating the number of people who are crazy this go around. Some are choosing either Trump or Stein, some are choosing between Johnson or Stein....etc. The American people are so mis-informed in 2016 it is so dangerous and we are becoming the joke around the World thanks to Mr. Drumpf.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I really would love to know where you bought those rose colored glasses. You have your mind made up, that is clear. So long as you are OK with her lying, who am I to convince you otherwise. Enjoy the day!
Rose colored contacts behind rose colored glasses inside a rose colored helmet worn inside a rose colored glass house, probably whilst imbibing large quantities of rose wine. Even that wouldn't make Hillary seem honest for most people, but while claiming to not like Hillary, he reduces anyone threatening her assension to the level of Hitler.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,562
29,171
146
Rose colored contacts behind rose colored glasses inside a rose colored helmet worn inside a rose colored glass house, probably whilst imbibing large quantities of rose wine. Even that wouldn't make Hillary seem honest for most people, but while claiming to not like Hillary, he reduces anyone threatening her assension to the level of Hitler.

Mussolini, not Hitler. Get your fascist dictator analogies straight. :colbert:

But I do see the vain attempts to equate Hillary's known lies with MicroMussolini's known lies to be a profound and unique level of cognitive dissonance.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,606
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What if that's what millions of people in your state think, but if they voted it could be a swing state?

Or get rid of the EC and make it so their is no such thing as a swing state. Everyones vote counts equally no matter where you happen to reside. EC is everything wrong with our election system and democracy.
 

sontakke

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
895
11
81
Or get rid of the EC and make it so their is no such thing as a swing state. Everyones vote counts equally no matter where you happen to reside. EC is everything wrong with our election system and democracy.

If you do that republicans have no chance at all. Are you aware that most of the population is on the coasts and they overwhelmingly vote democratic?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
If you do that republicans have no chance at all. Are you aware that most of the population is on the coasts and they overwhelmingly vote democratic?

Meh. it's rare that the EC doesn't follow the popular vote. 2000 was the only time in modern history, iirc.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,606
4,055
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If you do that republicans have no chance at all. Are you aware that most of the population is on the coasts and they overwhelmingly vote democratic?

And? That's called democracy. Maybe they will need to adjust their product?

Id be a good sample of why the EC sucks. Say i want to vote democrat here in KS? I have no reason to go out and vote in a majority red state. My vote doesnt count for anything. This would also apply to republicans in say CA or NY. No reason to go to the polls. But if their was no EC than everyones vote would matter equally no matter where you lived and politicians couldnt just pander to like 10 states.
 
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HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
Wishful thinking dude, you are under estimating the number of people who are crazy this go around. Some are choosing either Trump or Stein, some are choosing between Johnson or Stein....etc. The American people are so mis-informed in 2016 it is so dangerous and we are becoming the joke around the World thanks to Mr. Drumpf.

What is misinformed and/or crazy about voting for Johnson, especially for people that live in strong (D) or (R) states?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,476
8,076
136
"I despise this woman because decades of unfounded and repeated charges against her and her husband's character spearheaded by butthurt republican children have eventually convinced me that the mere persistence of such spurious charges is evidence of truth. Therefore, I choose fascism."

Sounds about right.
That is indeed my sense of hillary hate
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
I'm kinda curious about why I should care about Trump/Putin/Crimea when Libya was a far more successful nation than Ukraine has ever been, and when Hillary gloated about her involvement in toppling it, and blamed its citizens for why it's still in disarray.