*OFFICIAL Week 12 NFL Thread* The stretch run is on!!

[Retro Rob]

He's just mad that he's stuck with Stafford who, admittedly with a canon of on arm, is cursed with a pop-gun of a noggin.

Great for keg tossing, but not much else. :\

--and I do like Stafford, btw.

This is just silly, actually.

So I have to hate my QB (which I don't...I very much like our QB but I don't think he's worth the pay) to not like another?

How many Pats fans are not fans of Peyton?

Your argument can be disproven on this very point.

 

[akugami]

KC @ OAK 8:25 pm NFLN
SUN, NOV 23
Cleveland @ ATL 1:00 pm CBS
Titans @ Eagles 1:00 pm CBS
Lions @ Pats City 1:00 pm FOX
Packers @ Vikings 1:00 pm FOX
Jags @ Colts 1:00 pm CBS
Bengals @ Texans 1:00 pm CBS
Jets @ Bills 1:00 pm CBS
Bucs @ Bears 1:00 pm FOX
Cardinals @ Seahawks 4:05 pm FOX
Rams @ Chargers 4:05 pm FOX
Dolphins @ Broncos 4:25 pm CBS
Redskins @ 49ers 4:25 pm CBS
Cowboys @ G-Men 8:30 pm NBC
MON, NOV 24
Ravens @ Saints 8:30 pm ESPN

Hey look, fans are fed up with Jeff Geor --- errr, I mean, Jay Cutler.

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/11/19/jay-cutler-marc-trestman-chicago-bears-nfl/

I'd file that under the "Well, DUH" category of articles. The GM who signed him to that big contract should be caned too.

FTFY.

I blame Jay Cutler!

Cutler tried to throw the blame away, but it was intercepted. :awe:

 

[Ban Bot]

I think the general issue with QB "grading" by fans, other than watching them first hand, is the criteria they judge by. The pundits have the same issues. The pundits typically put

Significant of weight on:

# Yards, Touchdowns. These records are the ones most hyped and most often how a QB is graded.

Moderate weight on:

# Completion %, 3rd down %, INTs, Passer Rating, "Being a coach on the field," "leadership," Big Arm

Light weight on:

# Consistency (2TDs/week or boom or bust 4TD week 1, 0TD week 2), Sacks, avoiding the killer mistake, yards per attempt

Nominal weight on:

# Converting dead/negative plays to positive plays, fumbles, situational football (e.g. a QB with a lot of yards because his team plays catch up; a QB on an average team who is asked to make high risk/reward plays to remain competitive), nuances (e.g. putting the ball on the right shoulder, hitting receivers in stride, only where their receiver can get it, etc.)

I think there are good arguments to reshuffle the weighting. Every situation/offense/roster is different but "bad plays" would always be at the top, even for a volume QB. And "rate" doesn't fully offset negative plays. e.g. If a QB1 throws 25 times w/ 1 INT and QB2 throws 50 times w/ 2 INT I think the 2 turnovers in general are worse even though the rate is the same as it is a possession issue. QB2 gave the other team 1 extra drive. That is one less drive for QB2s team, one extra for the other team, and an INT could be a game changer (e.g. lost score, score going the other way). Field position and possessions are hidden stats.

It takes a LOT of positive plays For every INT, Fumbles, QB-caused Sack, bad call (missed audible, unnecessary time out), etc.

I always would weight QBs who turn dead plays into positive plays pretty high. This is where running can be an advantage if a) the QB does things not to get hurt and b) the scramble is a pass first approach and not empty "running QB yards." The ability to take a defenses best punch and break their back by converting the defensive win into an offensive win is very valuable in the flow of a game. This is what "3rd down %" tries to track but it is only a subsample of what I am counting.

I would also weight a QB who is consistent--I want the QB who can be counted on weekly to throw 2TDs and 0.5INTs and who regularly makes the right call, read, and reaction. Another "stat" which is a fraction of a sample of a bigger issue is "comebacks." This attempts to measure how a QB when the team needs him to lead the offense to a score more often than not navigates the field, avoids a mistake, and gets the necessary result (FG, TD) to take the lead. If QB1 often has 3TDs and 1.5INTs and QB2 has 2TDs and 1INT average, but QB1 often has INTs on comeback attempts and QB2 is good about not making mistakes in such situations that is an invaluable trait.

This is why I think people have a hard time with Wilson. He isn't in a volume passing offense. Their receivers are below average receivers but good blockers. Their offensive line is drafted and focused on run blocking with pass blocking as secondary. But Wilson operates well within these parameters. He is pressured all the time but avoids a lot of sacks. His receivers aren't often open but like Big Ben moves and gets new angles or time to make a play. He can exploit over-shifting of defenses to stop the run game. He doesn't turn the ball over often. In comeback scenarios he frequently is able to score and avoid costly mistakes (INTs, calling unnecessary time outs). He knows when to throw the ball away and will make a play to escape the pocket to throw the ball away. Carroll would be thrilled if Wilson did the intangibles above and had 2TD, 0 INT, 200 yards, 17/25, 40 yards rushing, and less than 2 sacks every game. Doing this in a run-first offense puts a lot of pressure on the other team.

He is being asked to play differently than Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Ben, Rodgers, Brady, Luck, etc. And while those are all great QBs I think most of the GMs drank the Kool-Aid. They think championships come by focusing on these talented players. I think BB in New England had it right. While the Greatest Show on Turf was fun to watch a good defense, solid special teams, and a conservative offense where the QB is asked to make plays when required (instead of being the focus of the offense) is best. I think Brady and Manning would be better on run-heavy teams and got to pick their spots. The volume passing approach is fun to watch but I think it is VERY hard to consistently be great, week in and week out, at passing in volume, especially in the winter.

 

[darkswordsman17]

But...but...but...he's better than Luck! (sorry, not directed at you, but couldn't resist poking the RGIII fans out there who I know are lurking but won't repeat their dumb comments from a couple of years ago)

While I agree with your comments about Snyder, realize one thing -- RGIII, if he does get traded or leaves Washington, will very likely be going to a bad team again and his attitude has probably reduced the pool of teams who would show interest. I think he will be back next year in Washington but after that, what teams would take a chance on him? I can only think of a few based on what we know of existing QB situations which obviously could change in a couple of years:

1. Chicago (if they give up on Cutler)
2. Tampa
3. Tennessee
4. Houston
5. Jets
6. Giants (if Eli is gone)

and of course, the most lulzy possibility of all -- the RAMS!

Holy shit you're still harping on that? Even at the time you were insufferable and seemed to be distorting what people were saying to make some strawman argument to argue against. I don't think I ever saw any of the shit you kept claiming people were saying while you kept going out of your way to trash RGIII. Also, um, a couple of years ago RGIII was playing better than Luck so I don't even know why you'd bring up a couple of years ago for your "I was right, told ya so!" antics.

 

[zinfamous]

This is just silly, actually.

So I have to hate my QB (which I don't...I very much like our QB but I don't think he's worth the pay) to not like another?

How many Pats fans are not fans of Peyton?

Your argument can be disproven on this very point.

why would you take that argument seriously? Do you have a problem parsing serious information against sarcasm? Why not respond to the serious points, only to focus on the low-hanging fruit?

:hmm:

ah yes...I recall your other threads.

 

[zinfamous]

Holy shit you're still harping on that? Even at the time you were insufferable and seemed to be distorting what people were saying to make some strawman argument to argue against. I don't think I ever saw any of the shit you kept claiming people were saying while you kept going out of your way to trash RGIII. Also, um, a couple of years ago RGIII was playing better than Luck so I don't even know why you'd bring up a couple of years ago for your "I was right, told ya so!" antics.

I like ICF, but he has this disturbing ongoing hard-on for RGIII, and I don't know why.

He often made the argument that the Redskins were stupid to draft RGIII when the Colts drafted Luck, and everyone knows that's the dumbest argument for...anything. He continues to deny making that argument, but like you said--he has a history of inflating people's comments into what he wants to think they were saying, if only to take them down. makes no sense.

and why RGIII, I don't know. I think he just hates the Redskins and/or Snyder. That, I can get.

RGIII arguably had a better rookie campaign than Luck, but it really wasn't. You only ever heard about RGIII, though, while Luck just put up ridiculous numbers on a team that continued to be middling. The Redskins were actually competitive that year, so it made for a better story, I guess.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I don't see him as having a bad attitude. He is very young, coming off a few injuries, and losing. Why are they even letting him to press interviews? That is a recipe for disaster. Not to mention, he was right. The entire team, minus maybe Morris, are playing like shit and it isn't doing him any favors. He might have worded it poorly (he should have said "we need to play better" rather than "calling out" everyone else), but he knows he needs to get better.

I wouldn't mind seeing him on a good team and getting a chance. If he focuses on being a pocket passer, he can be very successful AND have wheels to burn free rushers.


Also, Tate to the Vikings and Blount to the Pats (again). And someone called it in the other thread. BB is snatching up Blount to keep him off other teams IMO.

The thing is he started by saying he needs to play better himself, he never said he wasn't part of the problem which is why the whole thing is fucking stupid. The media is jumping all over every little thing and twisting it like crazy. I do think he needs to realize the media are pieces of shit that are only there to either trash him or worship him (and which one depends on what angle they're working at the time and his success) so he needs to be more guarded with what he says, but this is getting blown way out of proportion. They're basically exploiting a young team, QB, and coach to get sound bites so they can trump it up into stories.

Does Griffin need to mature? Yes. Does he need to play better? Definitely.

Dont' know what defense has to do with a QB on the field...

Look at his O-Line this year, which is probably the worst in the league. Even so, they were dismantling teams up until the Harvin trade, which sent them into a 3 game spin as their offensive scheme needed a completely new system.

They're still winning, he's still tossing for 2 TD/nearly 200 per game, he has what--5 rushing TD and some 500 rushing yards this season as a QB--behind the worst O Line?

Important question: have you actually watched them play, or do you just read articles and look at numbers?

Fact is Wilson is not playing as good this year. He still flashes his ability but he's been more mistake prone and for whatever reason the team just is not playing as well.

From what I've seen his line was worse last year and yet he consistently played better behind it. In fact, that seems to be the difference between this year and last year, is Wilson's not as good play. He's not playing bad, just not as good. That's kinda the epitome of the team. They still play well, just not as good as last year and that's why their record is what it is.

I'm not trashing him as I think he's still good (he reminds me a lot of a more mobile young Tom Brady, as he typically finds ways to make the plays his teams needs even if he doesn't put up the gaudy numbers). I've been a fan of his for a while. I think we're just seeing the reality of playing in the NFL. It's impossible to play well all the time. But because they're reigning champs there's extra scrutiny for them not playing as well (especially since they started out the season looking like they might be even better).

 

[darkswordsman17]

I like ICF, but he has this disturbing ongoing hard-on for RGIII, and I don't know why.

He often made the argument that the Redskins were stupid to draft RGIII when the Colts drafted Luck, and everyone knows that's the dumbest argument for...anything. He continues to deny making that argument, but like you said--he has a history of inflating people's comments into what he wants to think they were saying, if only to take them down. makes no sense.

and why RGIII, I don't know. I think he just hates the Redskins and/or Snyder. That, I can get.

RGIII arguably had a better rookie campaign than Luck, but it really wasn't. You only ever heard about RGIII, though, while Luck just put up ridiculous numbers on a team that continued to be middling. The Redskins were actually competitive that year, so it made for a better story, I guess.

Oh don't get me wrong, I actually think he's a good poster on football for the most part, but he definitely has a Colts bias. His disdain for RGIII has baffled me the entire time though. I don't have any idea why either but it was annoying back then and is just getting ridiculous to be harping on it now.

I don't see much to dispute that RGIII played better in 2012. Most people could understand why. Luck showed his potential (but remember the come from behind wins were often because he put them in the hole to begin with, he had a lot of turnovers; which is the key reason I say Griffin played better). I fully expected Luck would improve (which he has). I also fully understood that RGIII would likely regress short term (with no idea what long term might be, especially with how the end of that rookie season went) due to them tailoring the offense around him (and Alfred Morris who also played exceptional for a rookie). Both the Colts and Redskins were middling teams elevated by their coaches ability to make use of their talented rookie QBs.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Chiefs are playing flat. Fucking hate Thursday night games.

 

[Retro Rob]

why would you take that argument seriously? Do you have a problem parsing serious information against sarcasm? Why not respond to the serious points, only to focus on the low-hanging fruit?

:hmm:

ah yes...I recall your other threads.

Oh I knew you weren't serious, just wasn't really in the mood for sarcasm.

My bad.

 

[zinfamous]

Oh I knew you weren't serious, just wasn't really in the mood for sarcasm.

My bad.

I really do like Stafford, though. Wilson would be shitty on that team.

All you need is some dude to toss the ball far and in Johnson's general direction, and you're good to go. ...that's an understatement--Stafford has more than that--but it's good enough.

 

[zinfamous]

Chiefs are playing flat. Fucking hate Thursday night games.

waking up now, I guess.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Wow, Raiders might finally win.

 

[zinfamous]

LMAO. 3 penalties on the play that would win their first game. poor bastards

...So, do the 08 Lions gather for a toast on a night like this?

:hmm:

 

[zinfamous]

LMAO Raiders! awww coach took timeout to fix it?

that is fucked up. I wanted to see excessive celebration get wrecked. would have been perfect for the season

 

[waggy]

LMAO Raiders! awww coach took timeout to fix it?

that was a bad call they shoulda been a foul.

but how fucking stupid are they? jesus. no wonder they haven't won

 

[waggy]

wow they won 1! amazing.


jesus..the fucking idiots are acting like they won the superbowl...

 

[zinfamous]

Congrats to 08 Lions. still perfect.

 

[rockyct]

LMAO Raiders! awww coach took timeout to fix it?

that is fucked up. I wanted to see excessive celebration get wrecked. would have been perfect for the season

I know, how fitting for a season had they not called a timeout on that celebration and got called offside, and then the Chiefs convert on a more reasonable 4th down and then win a couple plays later.

As a Charger fan, I enjoyed the disaster of a game. The Raiders looked horrible, but the Chiefs looked dead except for 10 minutes in the late 3rd to early 4th quarter. The Raiders looked like a joke, but pulled something out of their ass and now the Chargers are only a half game back of the Chiefs.

 

[zinfamous]

I know, how fitting for a season had they not called a timeout on that celebration and got called offside, and then the Chiefs convert on a more reasonable 4th down and then win a couple plays later.

As a Charger fan, I enjoyed the disaster of a game. The Raiders looked horrible, but the Chiefs looked dead except for 10 minutes in the late 3rd to early 4th quarter. The Raiders looked like a joke, but pulled something out of their ass and now the Chargers are only a half game back of the Chiefs.

woo Chargers!

 

[bunnyfubbles]

They might as well just give the Bills the win and forgo any game. Ain't like the Jets have a chance.

They beat the Steelers and were a blocked FG attempt away from beating the Pats in Foxborro

Heck, even the Raiders got their first win tonight against an otherwise impressive Chiefs team that looked to be playoff bound if not a contender for the AFC West champion.

The Jets might be bad, but in the NFL nothing is guaranteed (and its not like the Bills are world beaters... this season or ever)

 

[BUTCH1]

Looks like KC was "looking past" the Oakland game, probably reading how great it was to beat the 'Hawks then play a stinker to the Raiders and lose. Thursday nite is still a horrific idea IMO but Denver should send thank-you cards to the Raiders LOL.

 

[BUTCH1]

Blount reportedly set to sign a two year deal with NE. Woot!

edit - also reported that he's at Gillette.

Yup, done deal, it's gonna be great having a big-back one-two punch with Blount and Grey plus he gives them security if Grey get hurt (RB's seem to get dinged a lot bu given what they go through it's not unexpected). Even better this means Denver can't get him nor Indy..

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Holy shit you're still harping on that? Even at the time you were insufferable and seemed to be distorting what people were saying to make some strawman argument to argue against. I don't think I ever saw any of the shit you kept claiming people were saying while you kept going out of your way to trash RGIII. Also, um, a couple of years ago RGIII was playing better than Luck so I don't even know why you'd bring up a couple of years ago for your "I was right, told ya so!" antics.

Lighten up Francis, it's all in good fun.

Anyway, I can't say the user I'm referring to specifically because it would be a callout. This, however, was one of his golden comments:

Andrew Luck is kinda like Ben Roethlisberger. He's good... not THAT good, but good enough if he has a good enough team around him. RG3 is like Steve Young... smart as hell, great arm and accuracy, and mobile, but not immune to injuries.

Holy clueless about football, Batman! LOL! Another comical comment from the same guy:

Russell Wilson's career will be worthless in the next two seasons. He will not stand the test of time.

Yeah, he just won the Super Bowl the next season.

Oh don't get me wrong, I actually think he's a good poster on football for the most part, but he definitely has a Colts bias. His disdain for RGIII has baffled me the entire time though. I don't have any idea why either but it was annoying back then and is just getting ridiculous to be harping on it now.

I am a biased Colts fan, but they've pissed me off this year again. I think they've actually regressed. Last year, they had a couple of inexplicable losses to teams they should've beaten (including the Rams), but they beat just about every good team they played. This year? They can beat the bad teams (the Jags of the world), the mediocre teams (like the Bungles) but lose to quality teams like Denver, New England, etc. and generally get run over. I'm tired of the defensive excuses -- they just need to hire a real DC and go from there.

I don't see much to dispute that RGIII played better in 2012. Most people could understand why. Luck showed his potential (but remember the come from behind wins were often because he put them in the hole to begin with, he had a lot of turnovers; which is the key reason I say Griffin played better). I fully expected Luck would improve (which he has). I also fully understood that RGIII would likely regress short term (with no idea what long term might be, especially with how the end of that rookie season went) due to them tailoring the offense around him (and Alfred Morris who also played exceptional for a rookie). Both the Colts and Redskins were middling teams elevated by their coaches ability to make use of their talented rookie QBs.

I really have nothing against RGIII believe it or not. There is one (or maybe two) beloved patriot fan here who gave me a ton of shit about the draft and RGIII's rookie season and I do pop up with my occasional RGIII barb just for lulz.

This whole situation reminds me of the time I said Vick was a mediocre QB at best or the time I laughed at the Cardinals for getting ripped off in the Kevin Kolb trade and got pounced on by a couple of users (especially one in particular, who shall remain nameless). A few years later, you don't see anyone talking about Vick or Kolb being a HOFer or "MVP candidate" (LOL!) and I fear the same will happen with RGIII.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I like ICF, but he has this disturbing ongoing hard-on for RGIII, and I don't know why.

He often made the argument that the Redskins were stupid to draft RGIII when the Colts drafted Luck, and everyone knows that's the dumbest argument for...anything.

Actually, I never made that argument. AT ALL. The team drafting at #2 was going to take the QB who wasn't drafted #1 overall and that was never in dispute. I would've drafted RGIII if I were sitting in the second slot.

What I DEFINITELY argued, however, was that the Redskins were dumb to pay the price they paid to get into position to draft him. I stand by that assessment. I'd also say that if RGIII does leave the Redskins and actually ends up in St. Louis, it would rank in the top 5 biggest personnel blunders of all time (thought the epic lulz generated would be awesome!).

You guys take this too seriously. Lighten up.