** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[KIAman]

Well, I played my league placement matches. Won 3, lost 2 and it placed me in silver. The 2 I lost to were a gold and a platinum. And I came close to killing the platinum if I trusted my instincts. I harassed his expansion and forced him to turtle 1 base. At one point, he pushed out with MMM, I killed them with a force of roach and slings. I was down to 6 slings and 4 roaches and I should've taken the fact, he pulled his workers to block the ramp as a sign that he had nothing left. My instinct told me to push on because I had 12 more slings and 4 more roaches in queue but I was a wimp and pulled out of the ramp and let his forces build up.

First game, I scouted 6 pool, LOL. So I went 11 pool and easily pushed back his 16 zergs with 1 queen, 2 spines and 6 slings. He kept queing the zergs through my meat grinder. My economy was easily triple his and I killed him off with combination of roach/slings.

Second game was a bunker cheese that I scouted in my base and killed. I sent a force of 8 slings and killed off almost all his workers. He made 1 last push with whatever minerals he had left which I defended at my natural. He gg after that.

Third game was a standard 3 gate build but I kept him from ever getting his natural so he pretty much went all in void ray rush which I killed using my +1 range hydras and he pretty much gg once his voids were gone.

Fourth game was standard 3 gate build but he was conservative with his build and made sure he got the natural through my harass. He was very good at harassing as well and constantly tortured my workers at my natural. I wasn't good enough to continue to counter his units and attempt to macro and he pretty much ground me down. It was a 30 minute game and in the end, he out-macroed me.

Fifth game was close. He turtled in pretty hard, pushed out with a force of marines to attempt to stop my natural. I defended it but lost about 4 workers in the process. I built up a force of roach/slings and sent them up towards his natural. After some intense micro battle, I whittled down his force, didn't realize he had nothing left (I should have realized this when he pulled all his workers to block the ramp). I pussyed out and pulled out to his natural trying to get my 3rd and build up my macro while he pretty much went all in MMM ball and came out and wiped me. Stupid me.

 

[PUN]

i thought you were in masters league.


i did it once just to see if i could beat them and i was able to. close front door and mass tanks.

Yeah with over 3k games in total, but can't beat these freaking AI under insane. Do you just close the front ramp completely? siege than move out?

EDIT: what i mean by complete ramp closure is Triple stacked SD with double barrack. Any single would completely get through.
I tried the siege but can't get enough siege tanks out in time for their first wave.

 

[namtran512]

i'm not talking about rushing to mutas. the spire goes down after you've secured an expo, which is almost always early anyway (14, 15 hatch).

roaches are like mutas... that's still a good one.

1) 14 / 15 hatch does not work well against P, you'll auto lose most of the time if you do that against a good P player

2) Roaches are like Mutas in that they are good at picking off random stuff and denying and map controlling. They aren't as good as going into the base and harassing as Mutas, but they are better confrontational fighters and don't open you up to the 30 billion all in pushes a T player has.

3) 14 hatch = > Muta vs T is bad because if he 2 raxed you, you are likely behind on resources and going a Mineral AND Gas intensive unit like Muta is asking to lose very quickly.

4) If you want to question my skills as a SC2 player go ahead. I know I am better then you. If you want proof hit me up and I'll show you why Mutas are bad.

 

[eLiu]

Yeah with over 3k games in total, but can't beat these freaking AI under insane. Do you just close the front ramp completely? siege than move out?

EDIT: what i mean by complete ramp closure is Triple stacked SD with double barrack. Any single would completely get through.
I tried the siege but can't get enough siege tanks out in time for their first wave.

I wall off my ramp with 1 or 2 depots & 1 rax. CPU doesn't baneling bust so I don't have to worry about that shit. I leave a scout or two forward (xel nagas and/or near their ramp) so I see what's coming when they move out. If it looks too big, I'll throw a bunker behind the rax at my door. Also so I can grab some workers for repairing.

If they have a lot of melee units, I'll eventually drop the ramp and step-micro against the AI.

I don't get a ton of tanks... MMM ball w/some tanks for support. But they are damn useful for defending. Might also grab some banshees (vs zerg) or vikings (vs colossi). I probably should've used ghosts against the AI protoss, but I suck w/ghosts.

In my games, after the first or second AI attack wave, I'd expand. When the expansion "kicks in," I move out. And expand again. And make sure you have tons of production capacity... I get more than I can support for the times when my macro slips. Generally if I fight the AI army & both armies die, I'd be pleased since their army is always numerically bigger.

 

[PUN]

1) 14 / 15 hatch does not work well against P, you'll auto lose most of the time if you do that against a good P player

2) Roaches are like Mutas in that they are good at picking off random stuff and denying and map controlling. They aren't as good as going into the base and harassing as Mutas, but they are better confrontational fighters and don't open you up to the 30 billion all in pushes a T player has.

3) 14 hatch = > Muta vs T is bad because if he 2 raxed you, you are likely behind on resources and going a Mineral AND Gas intensive unit like Muta is asking to lose very quickly.

4) If you want to question my skills as a SC2 player go ahead. I know I am better then you. If you want proof hit me up and I'll show you why Mutas are bad.

Roaches are used commonly used because they are damn good. you can get them out quick and counter stalkers. Mutas are only good when accomodated by slings, sometimes roaches. They are meant to be used to harrass the workers and exp.

When I play zerg (not my best race), I never go hydra against P & T. I'll play some against Z but they are rarely played. Safest bet is slings, roaches, hydras and corruptors.

 

[PUN]

I wall off my ramp with 1 or 2 depots & 1 rax. CPU doesn't baneling bust so I don't have to worry about that shit. I leave a scout or two forward (xel nagas and/or near their ramp) so I see what's coming when they move out. If it looks too big, I'll throw a bunker behind the rax at my door. Also so I can grab some workers for repairing.

If they have a lot of melee units, I'll eventually drop the ramp and step-micro against the AI.

I don't get a ton of tanks... MMM ball w/some tanks for support. But they are damn useful for defending. Might also grab some banshees (vs zerg) or vikings (vs colossi). I probably should've used ghosts against the AI protoss, but I suck w/ghosts.

In my games, after the first or second AI attack wave, I'd expand. When the expansion "kicks in," I move out. And expand again. And make sure you have tons of production capacity... I get more than I can support for the times when my macro slips. Generally if I fight the AI army & both armies die, I'd be pleased since their army is always numerically bigger.

thanks, i'll give that a try.
The only time I can beat the insane AI is when I:
1) proxy near their base (fun picking their units one by one)
2) Bunker/Canon with scv/stalker then mass production.

I leave two scv/probes for scout, but it still doesn't give enough time to build bunkers or enough canons (forget units) to counter their massive units. Are you guys playing on 2v2 map?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Yeah with over 3k games in total, but can't beat these freaking AI under insane. Do you just close the front ramp completely? siege than move out?

EDIT: what i mean by complete ramp closure is Triple stacked SD with double barrack. Any single would completely get through.
I tried the siege but can't get enough siege tanks out in time for their first wave.

to be honest i don't recall how "secure" my front door was. i remember i needed scv's repairing during the attack and once it was thwarted, i slowly extended the wall with rax and factories to my expo and then slowly inched forward with tanks.

there was some back and forth going out, gaining ground, then losing it. but by the time my tanks reached his expo, he couldn't hold it and it was pretty easy from then on out.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

1) 14 / 15 hatch does not work well against P, you'll auto lose most of the time if you do that against a good P player

2) Roaches are like Mutas in that they are good at picking off random stuff and denying and map controlling. They aren't as good as going into the base and harassing as Mutas, but they are better confrontational fighters and don't open you up to the 30 billion all in pushes a T player has.

3) 14 hatch = > Muta vs T is bad because if he 2 raxed you, you are likely behind on resources and going a Mineral AND Gas intensive unit like Muta is asking to lose very quickly.

4) If you want to question my skills as a SC2 player go ahead. I know I am better then you. If you want proof hit me up and I'll show you why Mutas are bad.

1. pro Z players almost always open 14-15 hatch (though i've been watching a lot of ZvT only recently).

2. ZvT, lings/mutas own terran MMM.

3. see 1 and 2

4. i don't know because i haven't seen you play. but i do know 14 hatch works because i see pro's do it all the time against other pros. are you pro gamer level? idra? ogs*? liquid*? *.prime?

what's your in game name so i can look up your stats?

 

[namtran512]

1. pro Z players almost always open 14-15 hatch (though i've been watching a lot of ZvT only recently).

2. ZvT, lings/mutas own terran MMM.

3. see 1 and 2

4. i don't know because i haven't seen you play. but i do know 14 hatch works because i see pro's do it all the time against other pros. are you pro gamer level? idra? ogs*? liquid*?

what's your in game name so i can look up your stats?

14 Hatch is necessary vs T, is unbelievably bad vs P. Pay attention to why the 14 hatch though vs T, the reason is that if you don't, you will not have enough larvae to defend against the 2 rax scv bunker push at the beginning of the game. Even if you do, you are still behind and the T is expoing behind that pressure and is going to come back with a quick +1 Stim/Shield Marine/Tank push that will likely end the game if you do something dumb like try to go Muta.


Ling/Muta own bad T's, good T's stop at the edge of creep with Tank and kite around the Tanks blasting your Lings to death. In big numbers with no blings, you are going to get smashed to death by Marine/Tank +1 pushes. Blings with speed are necessary to beat any type of 8-10 minute push by T, and if you open both Muta/Bling/Ling, you will not have enough gas in time to stop the push.


14 Hatch is a necessity vs T, it is not good vs P. Watch any recent PvZ and you'll see that opening 14 Hatch vs P is bad because it opens you up to cheese and allows P's to do free 15 Nexus which puts them ahead of you.


I am by no means a pro, but I am good enough to know what I am talking about. Opening 2 base Muta vs T and P is suicidal.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/482695/1/allbusiness/ladder/30101

 

[Dumac]

14 Hatch is necessary vs T, is unbelievably bad vs P. Pay attention to why the 14 hatch though vs T, the reason is that if you don't, you will not have enough larvae to defend against the 2 rax scv bunker push at the beginning of the game. Even if you do, you are still behind and the T is expoing behind that pressure and is going to come back with a quick +1 Stim/Shield Marine/Tank push that will likely end the game if you do something dumb like try to go Muta.


Ling/Muta own bad T's, good T's stop at the edge of creep with Tank and kite around the Tanks blasting your Lings to death. In big numbers with no blings, you are going to get smashed to death by Marine/Tank +1 pushes. Blings with speed are necessary to beat any type of 8-10 minute push by T, and if you open both Muta/Bling/Ling, you will not have enough gas in time to stop the push.


14 Hatch is a necessity vs T, it is not good vs P. Watch any recent PvZ and you'll see that opening 14 Hatch vs P is bad because it opens you up to cheese and allows P's to do free 15 Nexus which puts them ahead of you.


I am by no means a pro, but I am good enough to know what I am talking about. Opening 2 base Muta vs T and P is suicidal.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/482695/1/allbusiness/ladder/30101

I agree with pretty much all of this. I wouldn't say SUICIDAL, but just FE and teching straight to muta's is an extremely vulnerable play. Muta's are more viable in late game, which is why when you see the big macro 30 minute ZvTs muta's are often wrecking terran stuff all over the map.

 

[Dumac]

Roaches are used commonly used because they are damn good. you can get them out quick and counter stalkers. Mutas are only good when accomodated by slings, sometimes roaches. They are meant to be used to harrass the workers and exp.

When I play zerg (not my best race), I never go hydra against P & T. I'll play some against Z but they are rarely played. Safest bet is slings, roaches, hydras and corruptors.

Roaches are pretty good now, and many Ps fear them, but I just wanted to note that roaches alone will be raped by stalkers (and I wouldn't call them a counter). Make sure to go roach/ling, otherwise the stalkers can outmicro the roaches all day

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

I agree with pretty much all of this. I wouldn't say SUICIDAL, but just FE and teching straight to muta's is an extremely vulnerable play. Muta's are more viable in late game, which is why when you see the big macro 30 minute ZvTs muta's are often wrecking terran stuff all over the map.

i never said tech straight to mutas. you always establish ground with lings/blings first.
mutas on their own suck against even just marines.

 

[namtran512]

i never said tech straight to mutas. you always establish ground with lings/blings first.
mutas on their own suck against even just marines.

The issue is that if you go blings and blings you need +1/1 at least to make your lings useful, and both speeds. You cannot possibly manage to get a sizable force of mutas, with upgrades on your lings/blings in time to fight a T that is knocking on your door at 8-10 minutes into the game with +1 attack, stim, combat shield, and a gazillion marines and maybe 3-4 tanks.


The mutas MIGHT have just popped at best depending on the map, and even then they are horrible in a straight fight. Your best bet is to force the T to fight with Speed Roach and use Sling/Blings to do your damage.



And yeah opening Muta off 2 base vs P is suicidal, a 6 gate attack comes right as your Mutas pop, which means he has a 100 food army of Zealot/Stalker/Sentry at your door and all you have at best is Sling/Mutas.

 

[PUN]

Roaches are pretty good now, and many Ps fear them, but I just wanted to note that roaches alone will be raped by stalkers (and I wouldn't call them a counter). Make sure to go roach/ling, otherwise the stalkers can outmicro the roaches all day

Roaches and lings for stalker and zealots.
If i dont see any stargate or robo, I go mainly lings.

With the right micro, you can effectively use burrow + lings for hit and run.

I normally play T and P. MMM+tanks with turrets is what I do most. It covers pretty much all the grounds.

With P, you can stalker and pheonix against other P. Mainly Colossus/stalker against Z and T. With these setup, anyone can easily get to diamond.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

The issue is that if you go blings and blings you need +1/1 at least to make your lings useful, and both speeds. You cannot possibly manage to get a sizable force of mutas, with upgrades on your lings/blings in time to fight a T that is knocking on your door at 8-10 minutes into the game with +1 attack, stim, combat shield, and a gazillion marines and maybe 3-4 tanks.

lets not exaggerate.
at the 6 min mark, i can have 3 rax complete with add-ons with shields and stim researched and a handful of MM's with a build that's as flawless as I can get it.
no factory, no starport, no expo.

there is no way you're getting 3-4 tanks in additional to a gazillion upgraded marines at 8-10.

how many of each building do you have? expo is up and saturated?

 

[namtran512]

lets not exaggerate.
at the 6 min mark, i can have 3 rax complete with add-ons with shields and stim researched and a handful of MM's with a build that's as flawless as I can get it.
no factory, no starport, no expo.

there is no way you're getting 3-4 tanks in additional to a gazillion upgraded marines at 8-10.

how many of each building do you have? expo is up and saturated?

Work on your macro, 2 rax expo into 5 rax / 2 fac can easily pump out 80+ food in 10 minutes. The build is designed to hit around 10ish minutes which will crush you if you try and get too cute with economy. Around 6 minutes you should have your expo up, around 10 minutes you should have an army of Marine/Tank ready to go with Stim/Combat and possibly +1 (depending on if you cut out a tank or not).


It works on the same basis as a 6 gate which probe cutes and gets +1 attack in time for a 100 food push at 10 minutes.


10-12 minute mark is the money timing for T and P, as this is where Z is most likely the most vulnerable, as it is during this point where Z has already chosen to expo again, saturate his 2nd, tech, or make more troops.


If the Z chose to expo a 2nd time, or saturate his 2nd, he is in big trouble. Teching you can survive, but you will likely be crippled by one of those big pushes, and making more troops only puts you at even ground vs T and P, which means you are likely going to lose since even base Z is in huge trouble.

 

[eLiu]

Work on your macro, 2 rax expo into 5 rax / 2 fac can easily pump out 80+ food in 10 minutes. The build is designed to hit around 10ish minutes which will crush you if you try and get too cute with economy. Around 6 minutes you should have your expo up, around 10 minutes you should have an army of Marine/Tank ready to go with Stim/Combat and possibly +1 (depending on if you cut out a tank or not).

Agree. I dunno who said it, but I think 8min is pretty damn early to have that big of an army, but it's certainly feasible by 10. I can keep this pace if the opponent leaves me alone and all I have to do is build. But that never happens...

Not to derail this conversation too much, but what are your thoughts on an opening like this:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Barracks_(vs._Zerg)

My build sequence is similar, except my 3rd rax comes out earlier b/c I don't get the ebay that quickly.
Things I do differently: I get the tech lab as soon as I can afford it, and then stim as soon as I can afford it, then start marauders at this rax. Depending on how I feel (scout/whim), the other 2 rax go 1 reactor 1 lab or 2 reactor, which I get asap. I move out ~7min with stim completed and combat shields (or slow, depending on if i have a lot of marines) going. The move out covers me to expand & add 2nd gas at main. I'll get a factory/starport and another rax or two.

If it matters, I'm probably a high plat or low diamond player. I play terran & use that build almost exclusively, regardless of opponent. My long-term plan is to stick with MMM. 2 types of tanks/vikings/ghosts/banshees (depends on situation) play a supporting role. But I keep expanding and on 3 and into 4 bases, I like to have like 8-10+rax going so I can attack & replenish really quickly regardless of whether I trade favorably or not.


PUN: Yeah the AI has some weird logic for unit management sometimes. Like if you give it 2 equal priority targets (separated by some distance), its units will sometimes just spin in place, unable to decide what to do XD.

My games were all played on steppes of war. Seeing them move out doesn't give me enough time to finish a bunker, but it's close enough. It's 100 minerals you can recover, so perhaps wiser just to always get it?

But yeah my specific opening is described above^^ since I'm trying to get opinions on that. I don't see a need for a ton of tanks. Having a few is great for defense, and when you attack you and set up a small tank-line & bait the AI forward.

 

[namtran512]

Agree. I dunno who said it, but I think 8min is pretty damn early to have that big of an army, but it's certainly feasible by 10. I can keep this pace if the opponent leaves me alone and all I have to do is build. But that never happens...

Not to derail this conversation too much, but what are your thoughts on an opening like this:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Barracks_%28vs._Zerg)

My build sequence is similar, except my 3rd rax comes out earlier b/c I don't get the ebay that quickly.
Things I do differently: I get the tech lab as soon as I can afford it, and then stim as soon as I can afford it, then start marauders at this rax. Depending on how I feel (scout/whim), the other 2 rax go 1 reactor 1 lab or 2 reactor, which I get asap. I move out ~7min with stim completed and combat shields (or slow, depending on if i have a lot of marines) going. The move out covers me to expand & add 2nd gas at main. I'll get a factory/starport and another rax or two.

If it matters, I'm probably a high plat or low diamond player. I play terran & use that build almost exclusively, regardless of opponent. My long-term plan is to stick with MMM. 2 types of tanks/vikings/ghosts/banshees (depends on situation) play a supporting role. But I keep expanding and on 3 and into 4 bases, I like to have like 8-10+rax going so I can attack & replenish really quickly regardless of whether I trade favorably or not.


PUN: Yeah the AI has some weird logic for unit management sometimes. Like if you give it 2 equal priority targets (separated by some distance), its units will sometimes just spin in place, unable to decide what to do XD.

My games were all played on steppes of war. Seeing them move out doesn't give me enough time to finish a bunker, but it's close enough. It's 100 minerals you can recover, so perhaps wiser just to always get it?

But yeah my specific opening is described above^^ since I'm trying to get opinions on that. I don't see a need for a ton of tanks. Having a few is great for defense, and when you attack you and set up a small tank-line & bait the AI forward.

Z players will generally leave you alone because they know they cannot afford to fight you without Roach speed, which they shouldn't have till it is too late.



3 rax builds are generally very gimmicky or very all-in. You need to work on using 2 rax pressure or 2 rax FE.


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_Pressure_FE_(vs._Zerg)

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_FE_(vs._Protoss)


Against P you can generally get away with 2 rax FE since most P play very macro oriented.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Z players will generally leave you alone because they know they cannot afford to fight you without Roach speed, which they shouldn't have till it is too late.



3 rax builds are generally very gimmicky or very all-in. You need to work on using 2 rax pressure or 2 rax FE.


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_Pressure_FE_(vs._Zerg)

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_FE_(vs._Protoss)


Against P you can generally get away with 2 rax FE since most P play very macro oriented.

those pages are blank.

any videos of you doing this 2 rax, expo to 3-4 tanks + a gazillion upgraded marines by the 8 minute mark with the in-game timer on?

 

[namtran512]

those pages are blank.

any videos of you doing this 2 rax, expo to 3-4 tanks + a gazillion upgraded marines by the 8 minute mark with the in-game timer on?

Add a ) at the end of the link, url linking doesn't like it for some reason.


Edit : NVM I fixed it.


I'll do a short replay of it when I get around to it.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Add a ) at the end of the link, url linking doesn't like it for some reason.


Edit : NVM I fixed it.


I'll do a short replay of it when I get around to it.

thx very much.

 

[beginner99]

thx very much.

played few 1v1 customs games last couple of days after about 2 month pause. I still believe MMM is way OP at least vs toss.

1. toss needs to go for an observer to actually see what terran is doing
2. if yes you need Colossi (long tech path, expensive) or templars (long tech path, cost tons of gas + good micro needed for usage)
3. You can't expand before this (no ramp blocking with force field)

So even if you fend it of your way back in terms of economy.
plus MMM = no micro needed you can basically a-move. It's just so simple, that's why most terrans do it.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

played few 1v1 customs games last couple of days after about 2 month pause. I still believe MMM is way OP at least vs toss.

1. toss needs to go for an observer to actually see what terran is doing
2. if yes you need Colossi (long tech path, expensive) or templars (long tech path, cost tons of gas + good micro needed for usage)
3. You can't expand before this (no ramp blocking with force field)

So even if you fend it of your way back in terms of economy.
plus MMM = no micro needed you can basically a-move. It's just so simple, that's why most terrans do it.

good terrans will micro and scoot and shoot. not that that's hard either.

blink stalkers are a must against MMM. you have to blink the hurt ones away.
colossi and templars are also very good against MMM.

IIRC, toss has the highest win percentage across all leagues and in pro tourneys so....

 

[eLiu]

Z players will generally leave you alone because they know they cannot afford to fight you without Roach speed, which they shouldn't have till it is too late.



3 rax builds are generally very gimmicky or very all-in. You need to work on using 2 rax pressure or 2 rax FE.


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_Pressure_FE_(vs._Zerg)

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Rax_FE_(vs._Protoss)


Against P you can generally get away with 2 rax FE since most P play very macro oriented.

Wah, I suck hard with really small numbers of units, which is why I haven't tried too hard with the 2rax expand builds you posted. But I've been focused on this 3rax thing since I started platying SC2... maybe it's time to change.

I like play more like this:
http://www.youtube.com/user/HuskyStarcraft#p/u/3/86r-mshrDWk
(DeMusliM vs LiquidTyler) though I've never considered getting the factory/starport earlier & the 3rd rax later. Though getting that raven out early would help against the large #s of DTs I've seen lately. I hate DTs D:

What's gimmicky about the 3rax I was suggesting? I don't feel like mine is all-in; I don't try to win early (unless they like, don't have any units). My attack objective is to neutralize their army so I can expand & tech safely.

Is the issue that I'm trying to be too "general"? By that I mean I get my expansion later than the fast expand build you cited, but earlier than more 1base style play. So maybe I'm screwing myself by being in the middle--I could expand earlier or delay the attack & have a much bigger force.

 

[coreyb]

2 rax fe is pretty easy to pull off against toss. you do some early pressure with marines and then fall back to a bunker. then you have the early economy boost of the fast expand to help you in the mid game!