** Official Star Craft 2 Multiplayer Thread **

[KIAman]

so who are you using this "strategy" on?
1v1 friends?
AI?

Haha, I don't have a strategy, yet. I'm not preaching anything on this board. I've been tooling around custom games in chat with whoever is gold and lower.

I also realize playstyles change a lot from gold->plat-> diamond so I don't want to get "good" at a set of play only to get roflstomped when someone defends against it.

I'm mainly focusing on my macro. I've been practicing on hard AI on 1v1 maps trying to saturate 2 bases (60+ workers) with 200 food and GG the AI at the 15-17 minute mark.

I think I'm ready to league tonight. My main handle is Tremor, add me!

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Haha, I don't have a strategy, yet. I'm not preaching anything on this board. I've been tooling around custom games in chat with whoever is gold and lower.

I also realize playstyles change a lot from gold->plat-> diamond so I don't want to get "good" at a set of play only to get roflstomped when someone defends against it.

I'm mainly focusing on my macro. I've been practicing on hard AI on 1v1 maps trying to saturate 2 bases (60+ workers) with 200 food and GG the AI at the 15-17 minute mark.

I think I'm ready to league tonight. My main handle is Tremor, add me!

err... i've been playing a lot of 2v2 hard AI with my gf lately.
i'd say that puts you into silver, possibly gold.

the thing about AI is that they are very predictable. they always come and attack during the x min mark, fall back if their algorithm determines that they are going to lose the battle, always come through the front door (late game will break rocks if there), never drop, never cheese.
that's the exact opposite of what humans will do.

i haven't played in the lower leagues in awhile, if ever, and i understand that is a style in the lower leagues- turtle, farm, amass, then attack with highest tier army.
it is never done in plat and above. games rarely get to 200 food, and they're usually over in 10 mins.
use AI games for honing build order, use pro replays for learning strategy and human tendencies.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

2.2k Master T/P player here.


Mutas are pathetically horrible against both races. Too gas heavy, requires you to take 3rd too fast opening you up to 2 base pushes, and in general is very weak in straight up confrontations.


TvZ wise, it's bad because T has alot of options to deal with Mutas, and have a 2 base timing push that really cripples Z hard if they attempt to go Mutas (which T will see with a scan, as all good T players will do). Unless you are really good at defending / timing, Mutas are a very bad choice and it is better to stick to the safer and just as effective Mass Roach/Sling/Bling = > Ultra/Broodlord/Infestor path.

PvZ wise it's horrible because a +1 6 gate attack will kill you as soon as your Mutas pop after a 14 hatch or a speedling = > hatch opening.

again, mutas are not a 'win the game for you' unit. they're used to force the opponent to put up extra turrets, pop out more marines, focus more on defense while the zerg expands.

they are an integral part of a good zerg's army comp of muta/ling and should make up a smaller percent (~30%) of the army.

 

[Dumac]

Yes but the zerg is forced to build early roaches/hydras for def because the protoss adapted to the muta harass and started timing attacks around the ~9-10 minute mark which kills a fast muta zerg...

a few months ago, nearly every protoss did a 4 gate which could be defended with lings/spines and queens... and you could transition into mutas afterwards...
the 9-10 min attacks are very difficult to handle without roaches/hydras and you wont have enough mutas by that time...

stalker dmg is pretty low compared to marines etc... they are only a counter if they are not outnumber by the mutas and if you went for a berserker/sentry heavy composition you wont have THAT many stalkers.

so muta harass forces the p to build a lot of stalkers, research blink, and build cannons... if the P moves out, the mutas have some time to do dmg to the workers and be right back to the base in order to defend...

The Problem ist that you can not rely on mutas in the first 10-12 minutes because every good P will just kill you....

adding ~10 mutas in the midgame is a good idea against P... you need the spire anyways to deal with colossi...

For mutas in zvp I was going to say this pretty much. Zvp is still evolving, and while mutabuilds seemed to work in the past, I wouldn't say they were effective anymore, with new timing attacks ironed out plus phoenix gaining popularity. I was never one for going mutas against toss anyway, although they can be useful later like homer said

For zvt, however, sling/bling/muta can work, though I find myself shying away from mutas more and more

 

[eLiu]

hehe, i was wondering the same. But with his name being "KIA"man, it's in his korean blood to do well in the league.
If he is beating nightmare AI, i'd give him props....they are impossible to beat.

Wait what? I refuse to believe that you're a master level player and you cannot beat the insane AI. And I don't mean by like cannon rushing or some BS; I mean a "stand up" fight. Unless 'nightmare' is a new difficulty level? I can't find any discussion about it if so.

On the muta discussion: I don't think they're suppoesd to be a game-winning unit. And like any strategy that sacrifices X to get Y, you're vulnerable to things that require X. Bum rushing for DTs is dangerous. Bum rushing for banshees is dangerous. The player needs to make sure he can reach his goal *safely*. With costly units like mutas, that probably means some kind of early aggression to get them on the defensive to cover your expansion and build-up for mutas. I htink there's always value to harassing your opponent... whether that's running speedlings into his main while your armies engage, or picking off undefended buildings with flyers or whatever.

KIAman, beating the hard AI isn't too difficult. It 1-bases pretty hard, but if you hold off the first attack, you're golden. I mean I think the hard AI will expand once, but it only builds like 20 workers total the whole game. If you can beat the insane AI, that'd make you like platinum level, maybe. That said, the CPU doesn't play like most human players.

Also, building up until you hit 200 food and then attacking the *hard* AI is terrible, terrible practice for league games. Unless you're playing against other ppl who are bad, you'll never get to sit around and build up to 200 food. Units that sit idle are units being wasted (exaggeration, but you get the point).

 

[KIAman]

KIAman, beating the hard AI isn't too difficult. It 1-bases pretty hard, but if you hold off the first attack, you're golden. I mean I think the hard AI will expand once, but it only builds like 20 workers total the whole game. If you can beat the insane AI, that'd make you like platinum level, maybe. That said, the CPU doesn't play like most human players.

Also, building up until you hit 200 food and then attacking the *hard* AI is terrible, terrible practice for league games. Unless you're playing against other ppl who are bad, you'll never get to sit around and build up to 200 food. Units that sit idle are units being wasted (exaggeration, but you get the point).

I understand totally. I only did that to help my macro, not to win matches against players. I needed to get very good at my hotkeys and bring my average APM up to around 80ish or so. Also, I only did 200 food simply because I could and I end up GG the AI in 15-17 minutes anyways.

I also play any players 1v1 that are sitting in chat that are gold or lower on my other account. I've seen cheese, all-in early rushes, timing attacks, typical builds and I win pretty consistently. One thing the players lack is the ability to multi-task micro.

I can beat insane AI pretty consistently too, but I can't macro like I do on hard. One thing I notice about insane AI is they have almost perfect micro. Their units will kite EXACTLY out of range and will match your movements 1 to 1. Of course, in the end, they are still just AI and don't account for any information they gather from scouting and counter units.

Tonight I'm gonna league with Tremor. Add me as friends! I wanna play some of you anandtechers.

 

[PUN]

Wait what? I refuse to believe that you're a master level player and you cannot beat the insane AI. And I don't mean by like cannon rushing or some BS; I mean a "stand up" fight. Unless 'nightmare' is a new difficulty level? I can't find any discussion about it if so.

On the muta discussion: I don't think they're suppoesd to be a game-winning unit. And like any strategy that sacrifices X to get Y, you're vulnerable to things that require X. Bum rushing for DTs is dangerous. Bum rushing for banshees is dangerous. The player needs to make sure he can reach his goal *safely*. With costly units like mutas, that probably means some kind of early aggression to get them on the defensive to cover your expansion and build-up for mutas. I htink there's always value to harassing your opponent... whether that's running speedlings into his main while your armies engage, or picking off undefended buildings with flyers or whatever.

KIAman, beating the hard AI isn't too difficult. It 1-bases pretty hard, but if you hold off the first attack, you're golden. I mean I think the hard AI will expand once, but it only builds like 20 workers total the whole game. If you can beat the insane AI, that'd make you like platinum level, maybe. That said, the CPU doesn't play like most human players.

Also, building up until you hit 200 food and then attacking the *hard* AI is terrible, terrible practice for league games. Unless you're playing against other ppl who are bad, you'll never get to sit around and build up to 200 food. Units that sit idle are units being wasted (exaggeration, but you get the point).

Last time I played nightmare was about 3 months ago. My skill has not changed much since, but it's not near impossible but IMPOSSIBLE to beat 1v1 nightmare for me (tried few games). They seem to have at least 3 times the unit at 7min mark knocking on my door.

I know many are beating it once they get it down, but I have not really tried further after few games.

I tried Z build only, Pure marines with bunker/scv Def, etc but no luck.

 

[coreyb]

lots of good responses and also lots of dumb ones. just because you're 2200 masters or whatever doesn't mean your opinion is valid. I would rather follow the strategies PRO players are doing then some guy on the ladder.

anyway, it's a fact, mutas are awesome and useful.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Haha, you really thing reapers are the best Terran harass? No wonder you are having problems with this...

where did i say that? i rarely use superlatives so you're going to have a tough time proving this one.

in any regard, reapers pre-patch were excellent and extremely effective harass units. why else do you think they nerfed them 3 different ways (yes, 3 nerfs) in the patch?

 

[Dumac]

where did i say that? i rarely use superlatives so you're going to have a tough time proving this one.

in any regard, reapers pre-patch were excellent and extremely effective harass units. why else do you think they nerfed them 3 different ways (yes, 3 nerfs) in the patch?

Of course, pre patch they were, but that patch was forever ago and who dwells on the past? My comment sure as hell wasn't in the past.

You statement:

you can't even early harass them anymore because they nerfed reapers

makes it sound like Terran doesn't have a variety of excellent options for great early pressure, when in fact they do

 

[eLiu]

I understand totally. I only did that to help my macro, not to win matches against players. I needed to get very good at my hotkeys and bring my average APM up to around 80ish or so. Also, I only did 200 food simply because I could and I end up GG the AI in 15-17 minutes anyways.

I also play any players 1v1 that are sitting in chat that are gold or lower on my other account. I've seen cheese, all-in early rushes, timing attacks, typical builds and I win pretty consistently. One thing the players lack is the ability to multi-task micro.

I can beat insane AI pretty consistently too, but I can't macro like I do on hard. One thing I notice about insane AI is they have almost perfect micro. Their units will kite EXACTLY out of range and will match your movements 1 to 1. Of course, in the end, they are still just AI and don't account for any information they gather from scouting and counter units.

Tonight I'm gonna league with Tremor. Add me as friends! I wanna play some of you anandtechers.

80 apm is hardly necessary to play well & enjoy this game. I think my avg hits 60 on a good day and is usually around 50. My micro/unit control is mediocre to poor. I'm all about having more econ/productoin but less money (spendin it). In a lot of my games, right until I break their defense, my losses outnumber theirs by a lot. Different strokes

It's good that you can deal w/cheese... that's 1 whole branch of lame that you don't have to fear. I suck at fighting cheese builds ><

haha, yeah steamrolling the AI with a 200food army is pretty fun. When I play vs AI w/my friends, I like set up a contain, then get a fuckload of cattlebruisers and yamato things XD I just wanted to make sure you weren't in for a nasty surprise when you got on the ladder.

The insane AI does use some scouting knowledge. "scouting" lol I'm not sure if they scouted or if they're cheating. Like the couple times I've played, they seem to start their expansion within 10-15 seconds of when I start mine. And one time I tried to skip the wall-in, that bastard AI was in my face with a ton of zealots in no time.

PUN: I think I've played 3 or 4 games & only lost once against the insane AI. I play terran & my goto build is a 3rax. For me, the key is engage on favorable ground. Bait them into engaging your entrenched army. Draw them out by attacking expansions and hitting their force where you have a local numerical advantage, but withdraw when the bulk comes. From what I've seen, the insane AI has awesome individual unit control, but pretty shitty 'whole-army' control.

 

[HomerX]

anyway, it's a fact, mutas are awesome and useful.

yes thats right! BUT it can outright kill you if you try to get them too early...
So in Order to survive the initial Protoss 2Base Push you need Roach/Hydra...

later on, feel free to add some mutas to your composition!

Last time I played nightmare was about 3 months ago. My skill has not changed much since, but it's not near impossible but IMPOSSIBLE to beat 1v1 nightmare for me (tried few games). They seem to have at least 3 times the unit at 7min mark knocking on my door.

Its difficult if you are used to play against human opponents... The insane KI has a huge income advantage and sees everything...

As P you can beat the ki most of the time by staying on one base and building a lot of colossi/immortals while blocking the ramp with sentrys...
a maxed gateway/robo army with 3/3 upgrades smashes the ki armies with ease... colossi ftw ^^

another option is to harass the ki with fast air units while expanding, because the ki tends to walk all his units back to defend if you attack with a few units...

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

is masters league only in 1v1 or also 2, 3 and 4v4's?

does battle.net have a web page that shows all players in their respective leagues and divisions, or just in game?

 

[KIAman]

is masters league only in 1v1 or also 2, 3 and 4v4's?

does battle.net have a web page that shows all players in their respective leagues and divisions, or just in game?

Yup, battle.net has exactly the same information as ingame profile info. You can see everybody's w/l ratio, ladders, achievements, etc.

 

[namtran512]

again, mutas are not a 'win the game for you' unit. they're used to force the opponent to put up extra turrets, pop out more marines, focus more on defense while the zerg expands.

they are an integral part of a good zerg's army comp of muta/ling and should make up a smaller percent (~30&#37 of the army.

Mutas are a horrible unit because the Roach does everything the Muta can (contain, pick units off, etc.) but more for a cheaper price in general. Decent Roach micro allows you to snipe any buildings / units / etc. at the edge of T bases easily, not to mention that Roaches are easier to mass, don't open you up to 2 base all-ins / pushes, and are better in a straight fight late game.



Not to mention they are virtually your staple unit the entire game (Roaches that is) against all races, since they are just so freaking good it is hilarious.



Mutas become good once you have secured your 3rd, but going Mutas before 3rd is asking to lose against any decent T or P player.

 

[tk149]

Ok, I'm late to the party. I'm finally installing Starcraft 2.

How long does this effing thing take? The DVD install took awhile. Okay, that's expected. The Battlenet registration...WTF? They want my real name and address? NO effing way! I don't even play multiplayer! Starting to feel like I'm being treated like a pirate here.

It's been downloading multiple patches for over 20 minutes now. Should I just come back tomorrow? Goddammit! If I can't play in the next 10 minutes, I won't get another chance until Saturday. This effing game had better be worth it.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Mutas are a horrible unit because the Roach does everything the Muta can (contain, pick units off, etc.) but more for a cheaper price in general. Decent Roach micro allows you to snipe any buildings / units / etc. at the edge of T bases easily, not to mention that Roaches are easier to mass, don't open you up to 2 base all-ins / pushes, and are better in a straight fight late game.



Not to mention they are virtually your staple unit the entire game (Roaches that is) against all races, since they are just so freaking good it is hilarious.



Mutas become good once you have secured your 3rd, but going Mutas before 3rd is asking to lose against any decent T or P player.

yeah, roaches are just like mutas except they can't attack air, they don't ignore terrain like air units, and they're slow without the upgrade or when not on creep.
but other than that, they're exactly like mutas. yup.

and no pros go mutas before securing their 3rd expo against other pro T/P players.
nope, never been done. if they do, they lose. guaranteed.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Ok, I'm late to the party. I'm finally installing Starcraft 2.

How long does this effing thing take? The DVD install took awhile. Okay, that's expected. The Battlenet registration...WTF? They want my real name and address? NO effing way! I don't even play multiplayer! Starting to feel like I'm being treated like a pirate here.

It's been downloading multiple patches for over 20 minutes now. Should I just come back tomorrow? Goddammit! If I can't play in the next 10 minutes, I won't get another chance until Saturday. This effing game had better be worth it.

patches are relatively quick, esp. when compared to the initial install.

 

[HomerX]

Mutas are a horrible unit because the Roach does everything the Muta can (contain, pick units off, etc.) but more for a cheaper price in general. Decent Roach micro allows you to snipe any buildings / units / etc. at the edge of T bases easily, not to mention that Roaches are easier to mass, don't open you up to 2 base all-ins / pushes, and are better in a straight fight late game.

mutas are not there to snipe buildings... they are there to kill workers, force the Terran to build Turrets, split his forces and use stim early on...

so no... the roach does not everything the muta can...

and if the roaches are better later on in a fight depends on the unit composition of the T... Against a Marauder/Tank heavy composition mutas can be more usefull....

 

[imaheadcase]

Ok, I'm late to the party. I'm finally installing Starcraft 2.

How long does this effing thing take? The DVD install took awhile. Okay, that's expected. The Battlenet registration...WTF? They want my real name and address? NO effing way! I don't even play multiplayer! Starting to feel like I'm being treated like a pirate here.

It's been downloading multiple patches for over 20 minutes now. Should I just come back tomorrow? Goddammit! If I can't play in the next 10 minutes, I won't get another chance until Saturday. This effing game had better be worth it.

You don't need to put in real info. For instance i'm Jim Carrey when i signed up.

 

[tk149]

patches are relatively quick, esp. when compared to the initial install.

Quick is relative. It took about 20 minutes to install from the DVD, and another 40 minutes to download all the patches and install them over a 3Mbps connection. Seriously, an hour long installation? WTF?

They could have stuck a suggestion on the installer program to start downloading patches while the original installation was going on. That would have saved me 20 minutes.

I've played the first 3 missions so far, and am not especially impressed by the graphics. I have all the graphics settings on ultra.

Now that the game key has been tied to my Battlenet account, what happens when I quit playing for a year or two, and then want to start playing again? I know that I've had at least 2 different Battlenet accounts deleted because of inactivity.

 

[PUN]

How are some of you beating AI in insane mode.
I fought off first and 2nd wave of attack and I was able to expand. Took down both of their expansion and ran back to my base. Next thing, billions of stalker/zealots and sentries were breaking through my double stacked gates.

 

[namtran512]

yeah, roaches are just like mutas except they can't attack air, they don't ignore terrain like air units, and they're slow without the upgrade or when not on creep.
but other than that, they're exactly like mutas. yup.

and no pros go mutas before securing their 3rd expo against other pro T/P players.
nope, never been done. if they do, they lose. guaranteed.

Ask any pro to go mutas against P before 10 mins and see what their response is. The response is "Do you want to die to a +1 attack 6 gate attack?" If you open speedling = > hatch = > spire vs P, it is a guaranteed loss if the P sees your Spire.


Mutas against even T are horrible as an opening, because you open yourself up to 2 base Marine/Tank/Medivac pushes.

The only reason to go Mutas is if you suspect the T is going to go heavy Banshee composition early on, other then that there is no need for Mutas early on.


I play against top level players, so I do know what I'm talking about. Going Mutas against P is suicide, and most Z players remain on Roaches for the most part against T because it is a safer path and almost just as effective as Mutas are (Roach early on can deny a T expo early on relatively easy).

mutas are not there to snipe buildings... they are there to kill workers, force the Terran to build Turrets, split his forces and use stim early on...

so no... the roach does not everything the muta can...

and if the roaches are better later on in a fight depends on the unit composition of the T... Against a Marauder/Tank heavy composition mutas can be more usefull....

Mutas against good players maybe get 2-3 workers at most, if he is suspecting it he puts up 2 turrets, leaves a Thor at his base, and then proceeds to all in you and cripple you severely or outright win the game.


Plus Maurader/Tank loses to straight up mass Sling/Roach, which is cheaper then a Muta composition and easier to make.



I'm not saying Mutas are bad AFTER 10 minutes (after securing 3rd), but for the first 10 minutes any kind of 1 base/2 base rush to Mutas is asking to lose to any decent T / P player.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

How are some of you beating AI in insane mode.
I fought off first and 2nd wave of attack and I was able to expand. Took down both of their expansion and ran back to my base. Next thing, billions of stalker/zealots and sentries were breaking through my double stacked gates.

i thought you were in masters league.


i did it once just to see if i could beat them and i was able to. close front door and mass tanks.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Ask any pro to go mutas against P before 10 mins and see what their response is. The response is "Do you want to die to a +1 attack 6 gate attack?" If you open speedling = > hatch = > spire vs P, it is a guaranteed loss if the P sees your Spire.


Mutas against even T are horrible as an opening, because you open yourself up to 2 base Marine/Tank/Medivac pushes.

The only reason to go Mutas is if you suspect the T is going to go heavy Banshee composition early on, other then that there is no need for Mutas early on.


I play against top level players, so I do know what I'm talking about. Going Mutas against P is suicide, and most Z players remain on Roaches for the most part against T because it is a safer path and almost just as effective as Mutas are (Roach early on can deny a T expo early on relatively easy).





Mutas against good players maybe get 2-3 workers at most, if he is suspecting it he puts up 2 turrets, leaves a Thor at his base, and then proceeds to all in you and cripple you severely or outright win the game.


Plus Maurader/Tank loses to straight up mass Sling/Roach, which is cheaper then a Muta composition and easier to make.



I'm not saying Mutas are bad AFTER 10 minutes (after securing 3rd), but for the first 10 minutes any kind of 1 base/2 base rush to Mutas is asking to lose to any decent T / P player.

i'm not talking about rushing to mutas. the spire goes down after you've secured an expo, which is almost always early anyway (14, 15 hatch).

roaches are like mutas... that's still a good one.