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***OFFICIAL*** Ryzen 5000 / Zen 3 Launch Thread REVIEWS BEGIN PAGE 39

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CakeMonster

Senior member
Nov 22, 2012
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Are there any real world scenarios where the lower base clock of the 5950X could be a disadvantage over the base clock of the 5900X?

After all the difference is 3.7 (5900X) vs 3.4 (5950X), while the boost difference is 4.8 (5900X) vs 4.9 (5950X).
 

moinmoin

Platinum Member
Jun 1, 2017
2,074
2,485
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Are there any real world scenarios where the lower base clock of the 5950X could be a disadvantage over the base clock of the 5900X?

After all the difference is 3.7 (5900X) vs 3.4 (5950X), while the boost difference is 4.8 (5900X) vs 4.9 (5950X).
I think I saw some charts somewhere with the clock at each amount of cores, and between 10-12 cores the clock was higher for 5900X than for 5950X or something like that.

Edit: No, I think I misremembered this one from AT's review:
 

Det0x

Senior member
Sep 11, 2014
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SaLaDiN666

Junior Member
Nov 18, 2020
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Well Rocketlake is a 14nm back ported TigerLake @ 10nm used in Laptops.

Tiger lake brings up to 20% IPC performance increase over last gen.
It will not be far fetched to expect Rocket lake to be able to compete against Zen 3 in gaming performance.
Back porting it to 14nm will maintain 5GHz+ clock speeds. Only downside will be higher power consumption (125W TDP)

And since Intel always release lots of SKUs, im expecting cheaper 6Core and 8Core ZEN 3 SKUs from AMD close to Intel RocketLake release.
I don't know if I live in another reality but literally, Skylake is competing with Zen 3 in gaming performance.

They are effectively tied and depending on games, both can be declared as the winner.

So effectively, even 5% IPC performance increase would put Rocket Lake in front of Zen3. If a 20% IPC increase actually happens, it will be Ze1 vs Skylake all over again, since current gpus are heavily cpu bottlenecked at lower resolutions.
 

lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
1,503
1,922
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I don't know if I live in another reality but literally, Skylake is competing with Zen 3 in gaming performance.

They are effectively tied and depending on games, both can be declared as the winner.

So effectively, even 5% IPC performance increase would put Rocket Lake in front of Zen3. If a 20% IPC increase actually happens, it will be Ze1 vs Skylake all over again, since current gpus are heavily cpu bottlenecked at lower resolutions.
You're forgetting that IPC increase is not flat among applications and not even through a wide variety of games. With a 15% increase compared to Skylake IPC, there will be a lot of ground made up where Zen 2 was already in the lead before Zen 3. I'm just saying, IPC is not a magical carpet-bombing number one can apply at will. You can see the same with Zen 3, there are games with a measly 5% improvement and there are some with nearly 50%. You can see the 5% numbers where AMD was already close to Intel.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rocket Lake would be better in games, but not by _THAT_ much, while be a whole lot more competitive in rendering and other productivity than it is now.

"They are effectively tied and depending on games, both can be declared as the winner". -> that's also a lie and totally uncalled for. I'm not sure how could someone declare Intel a winner in any of the reviews I've seen - and I've seen quite a few :D
 
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SaLaDiN666

Junior Member
Nov 18, 2020
2
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You're forgetting that IPC increase is not flat among applications and not even through a wide variety of games. With a 15% increase compared to Skylake IPC, there will be a lot of ground made up where Zen 2 was already in the lead before Zen 3. I'm just saying, IPC is not a magical carpet-bombing number one can apply at will. You can see the same with Zen 3, there are games with a measly 5% improvement and there are some with nearly 50%. You can see the 5% numbers where AMD was already close to Intel.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rocket Lake would be better in games, but not by _THAT_ much, while be a whole lot more competitive in rendering and other productivity than it is now.

"They are effectively tied and depending on games, both can be declared as the winner". -> that's also a lie and totally uncalled for. I'm not sure how could someone declare Intel a winner in any of the reviews I've seen - and I've seen quite a few :D
Zen has its own issues, it is not a matter of IPC, it is the matter of throughput and latencies. Rocket Lake will be a monolithic cpu with larger caches and presumably, with proper hw mitigations. So yeah, Rocket Lake gaming performance increase should be higher than the IPC increase.

I did specifically address only gaming performance, Zen 2 IPC is higher than Skylake's. There are just types of applications it doesn't translate into due to latency issues.

Yeah, lies. You know what is actually a lie? AMD Zen 3 gaming benchmarks. No one could get the numbers they got.




Even the biggest AMD fanboys from AdoredTV admitted, that Zen3 gaming performance is overhyped.
 
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lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
1,503
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Zen has its own issues, it is not a matter of IPC, it is the matter of throughput and latencies. Rocket Lake will be a monolithic cpu with larger caches and presumably, with proper hw mitigations. So yeah, Rocket Lake gaming performance increase should be higher than the IPC increase.

I did specifically address only gaming performance, Zen 2 IPC is higher than Skylake's. There are just types of applications it doesn't translate into due to latency issues.

Yeah, lies. You know what is actually a lie? AMD Zen 3 gaming benchmarks. No one could get the numbers they got.




Even the biggest AMD fanboys from AdoredTV admitted, that Zen3 gaming performance is overhyped.
Thank you for showing your true face in your second post, so I don't have to delve into your abyss and waste my time trying to have an actual argument :)
 

lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
1,503
1,922
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According to Andreas Schilling from Hardwareluxx the L3 in Zen 3 accounts for 1/3 of the entire CCD.
  • 32 MB L3 is 27 mm²
  • CCD (Vermeer): 80,7 mm²
  • CCD (Matisse): 74 mm²
It seems to me we are transitioning from core count war to cache war.
If you think about it, since the Zen 3 cores are slightly larger, the L3 accounted for an even higher percentage of area in Zen 2.
 

shinjuku

Junior Member
Nov 5, 2020
15
14
36
5800x is up on amazon. i tried to add to cart and also tried buy it now, but every time the next page hits, it's showing up as empty.
 

lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
1,503
1,922
106
5800x is up on amazon. i tried to add to cart and also tried buy it now, but every time the next page hits, it's showing up as empty.
Here in Germany, there are multiple Zen 3 CPUs showing up with 20+ in stock, most of them are sold in bundles, although not for bad prices at all.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,253
111
106
Zen 3 is the definition of a paper launch. <- Link

I checked the major OEMs and not one of them has shipping or backordered Zen 3 based systems. This is 98%+ of the market.

It looks like they just shipped a few hundred thousand Zen 3's to DIY component sites like Newegg and called it a launch.

It really is time to call this what it is.

A paper launch.
 
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Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
3,200
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Zen 3 is the definition of a paper launch. <- Link

I checked the major OEMs and not one of them has shipping or backordered Zen 3 based systems. This is 98%+ of the market.

It looks like they just shipped a few hundred thousand Zen 3's to DIY component sites like Newegg and called it a launch.

It really is time to call this what it is.

A paper launch.
Disagree. Lots of people on every forum I visit have been able to get one. Just because they launched first in DIY doesn't mean anything. In fact, it's expected as even when they ship to DIY and OEMs at the same time, the OEM systems will come later due to them having to assemble and validate the machines. It also makes more sense for AMD to stock the DIY market first when they know they will completely sell out as they will get more money per unit.

Ampere was a paper launch. RDNA2 looks like a paper launch (pending what happens the next couple of weeks). Zen3 was decent supply at launch, just crazy demand.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,253
111
106
Disagree. Lots of people on every forum I visit have been able to get one. Just because they launched first in DIY doesn't mean anything. In fact, it's expected as even when they ship to DIY and OEMs at the same time, the OEM systems will come later due to them having to assemble and validate the machines. It also makes more sense for AMD to stock the DIY market first when they know they will completely sell out as they will get more money per unit.

Ampere was a paper launch. RDNA2 looks like a paper launch (pending what happens the next couple of weeks). Zen3 was decent supply at launch, just crazy demand.
That's garbage. 98% of the market has zero visibility to Zen 3. That's paper to start with. The remaining 2% DIY can't get it either. More paper. The AMD mob wants to give them a pass but that's ridiculous.

I can go to Dell's site right now and order an Alienware with either RTX 3080 or 3090 and it will deliver by or before Dec 8th. There are many other OEMs that had 30xx systems available, some sold out some have not.

Edit: I think Ampere was mostly paper too, but way better availability than Zen 3 - see next comment.

If you think Ampere was paper and Zen 3 was not, I think you need to check your bias.
 

naukkis

Senior member
Jun 5, 2002
374
218
116
I don't know if I live in another reality but literally, Skylake is competing with Zen 3 in gaming performance.

They are effectively tied and depending on games, both can be declared as the winner.

So effectively, even 5% IPC performance increase would put Rocket Lake in front of Zen3. If a 20% IPC increase actually happens, it will be Ze1 vs Skylake all over again, since current gpus are heavily cpu bottlenecked at lower resolutions.
No they aren't. Zen3 are about 20% faster than Skylakes in gaming at low resolutions. Both will offer similar game performance only at GPU-limited high resolutions. Rocketlake need that 20% uplift to have comparable gaming performance to Zen3.
 
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JoeRambo

Senior member
Jun 13, 2013
913
648
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No they aren't. Zen3 are about 20% faster than Skylakes in gaming at low resolutions.
Please. It takes useless for enthusiasts Anandtech testing with stock memory at Jedec timings for Skylake to fall behind that much, and this guy has 32GB of DDR4 3600CL15 probably in 4 rank setup, that is some seriuos money (well spent) on DDR4 memory.

For relevant gaming performance look at things like

Both ZEN3 and Skylakes are doing fine currently and Rocket Lake is going to be safe option as well that will serve 3080 for years. ( but i would personally lean towards AMD ZEN3 ).
 

Macros96

Junior Member
Apr 27, 2017
6
6
51
Zen 3 is the definition of a paper launch. <- Link

I checked the major OEMs and not one of them has shipping or backordered Zen 3 based systems. This is 98%+ of the market.

It looks like they just shipped a few hundred thousand Zen 3's to DIY component sites like Newegg and called it a launch.

It really is time to call this what it is.

A paper launch.
My very real 5950x in my new build disagrees. I waited all of two weeks, no camping out at stores and no scalper bot software or anything. Now the fact that I just put a waterblock on my launch 2080Ti at this late date shows the real paper launch of 2020. I guess I'll eventually see some flavor of 3080 in 2021.

Availability is certainly not great, but restocking has been happening and they are available with some effort.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,253
111
106
My very real 5950x in my new build disagrees. I waited all of two weeks, no camping out at stores and no scalper bot software or anything. Now the fact that I just put a waterblock on my launch 2080Ti at this late date shows the real paper launch of 2020. I guess I'll eventually see some flavor of 3080 in 2021.

Availability is certainly not great, but restocking has been happening and they are available with some effort.
So some guys reading an enthusiast forum got one. The fact remains it is not generally available to the public. The fact that OEMs did not / do not carry it or even allow people to order one for backorder is really all the proof that is needed. It's been two weeks since public availability and it was available widely for about 1 hour. Like I said, that is the de-facto definition of a paper launch.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
3,200
3,209
136
That's garbage. 98% of the market has zero visibility to Zen 3. That's paper to start with. The remaining 2% DIY can't get it either. More paper. The AMD mob wants to give them a pass but that's ridiculous.

I can go to Dell's site right now and order an Alienware with either RTX 3080 or 3090 and it will deliver by or before Dec 8th. There are many other OEMs that had 30xx systems available, some sold out some have not.

Edit: I think Ampere was mostly paper too, but way better availability than Zen 3 - see next comment.

If you think Ampere was paper and Zen 3 was not, I think you need to check your bias.
Ummm, have you not seen how many people actually have been able to order Zen3 versus Ampere? There are way more people with Zen3 CPUs than Ampere and Ampere launched 2 months ago. Zen3 Stock was available at some online retailers for hours on launch day. Ampere sold out in seconds. Zen3 launched 4 SKUs on launch day. Ampere had 1 SKU followed by 1 more a week later and then a third a month and a half later. Retailers have said that Ampere supply has been abysmal. I haven't heard any reports saying the same for Zen3 launch.

So what's your argument that Zen3 was more of a paper launch than Ampere? Because you can buy one as long as you are willing to spend $2000+ dollars on an OEM gaming machine? Well, you can buy OEM systems with Zen3 in them that will arrive in a few weeks if you really want. Do you really think 98% of the market is buying $2000+ gaming machines? Maybe make actual arguments next time instead of just accusing people of bias.
 

exquisitechar

Senior member
Apr 18, 2017
443
502
106
Zen has its own issues, it is not a matter of IPC, it is the matter of throughput and latencies. Rocket Lake will be a monolithic cpu with larger caches and presumably, with proper hw mitigations. So yeah, Rocket Lake gaming performance increase should be higher than the IPC increase.

I did specifically address only gaming performance, Zen 2 IPC is higher than Skylake's. There are just types of applications it doesn't translate into due to latency issues.

Yeah, lies. You know what is actually a lie? AMD Zen 3 gaming benchmarks. No one could get the numbers they got.




Even the biggest AMD fanboys from AdoredTV admitted, that Zen3 gaming performance is overhyped.
https://www.capframex.com/blog/post/Battle of the giants
With proper benchmarking, it seems to me that AMD is ahead at stock and they trade blows when overclocked and tuned (since Intel has a lot more to gain from that).
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,253
111
106
Ummm, have you not seen how many people actually have been able to order Zen3 versus Ampere? There are way more people with Zen3 CPUs than Ampere and Ampere launched 2 months ago. ...
I see way more people with Ampere than with Zen 3. *Way* more.

Unless you have some statistic to back up your statements, I think you're just spitballing.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
3,200
3,209
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I see way more people with Ampere than with Zen 3. *Way* more.

Unless you have some statistic to back up your statements, I think you're just spitballing.
I guess we could do a poll to find out for sure?

BTW, my analysis came from comparing how many people have talked about getting their Ampere card here: https://forums.anandtech.com/forums/nvidia.69/, versus getting a Zen3 here: https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/amd-ryzen-5000-builders-thread.2585909/, as well as a couple other forums I visit.
 
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