***OFFICIAL*** Ryzen 5000 / Zen 3 Launch Thread REVIEWS BEGIN PAGE 39

[yeshua]

If AMD decides not to release a reasonably priced 65W 5700X for this generation, I will skip it altogether.

No way I'm getting a 105W (which is 130W in practice considering that AMD keeps lying about their TDP and everyone is seemingly OK with that) 5800X for whopping $120 more than 3700X before it.

 

[inf64]

If AMD decides not to release a reasonably priced 65W 5700X for this generation, I will skip it altogether.

No way I'm getting a 105W (which is 130W in practice considering that AMD keeps lying about their TDP and everyone is seemingly OK with that) 5800X for whopping $120 more than 3700X before it.

No offense but I doubt AMD will be missing you as a customer. If you want the best performance you need to pay the higher price. AMD is not a charity, you have to keep that in mind.

 

[yeshua]

No offense but I doubt AMD will be missing you as a customer. If you want the best performance you need to pay the higher price. AMD is not a charity, you have to keep that in mind.

That's funny how AMD fans have always hated Intel and NVIDIA for this exact reason and suddenly it's become perfectly fine. Oh how the tables have turned.

 

[inf64]

That's funny how AMD fans have always hated Intel and NVIDIA for this exact reason and suddenly it's become perfectly fine. Oh how the tables have turned.

I prefer AMD but I paid premium for my 4690K back in the day and I do not regret it. You can buy whatever you want, but making blanket statements is not smart nor reasonable.
If you do not think the price/performance ratio is good, you can purchase the 14nm tech from 2016 or wait for 14nm tech with inferior IPC in Q1 next year, it's your choice.

 

[Hulk]

Only if they aren't supply constrained. The Pandemic has increased demand in a lot of sectors, and much like the mining boom did to GPU prices, resulting in a lot of prices rising above MSRP rather than going down.

The price increases aren't something consumers desire, but do they result in worse performance per dollar? If not than a new Zen 3 CPU is still a better purchase even at a higher price. It's only when value per dollar decreases that there's a real issue. Considering both Zen 2 and Zen 3 use the same wafers you can't really fault AMD unless They're decreasing the performance per dollar you can get, and even then it still might be hard to fault them too much if it's just the result of their own costs increasing due to the pandemic.

Very true. But generally when faster parts become available at the top of the stack and they are priced approximately where the old equivalent parts are priced then the parts beneath them come down in price. This is the case with AMD competing against itself with Zen 2 vs Zen 3 parts.

Intel as far as we know has nothing currently to compete with top of the line Zen 3 parts so they must price to be competitive performance-wise. I think we've for the most part seen those reductions as Intel knew this was coming. You can get a 10 core Intel CPU from Microcenter for $429, 12 core Zen 2 for $399. Pretty reasonable for very powerful chips.

Intel must be looking back fondly on the days when they could release single core desktop CPUs for $1,000 a pop.

 

[Zucker2k]

And something else, how do you know that CML gain more with RAM overclocking than Zen 3..?...

I suppose we'll find out with the Anandtech gaming comparisons - DDR4 2933 vs DDR4 3200 compared to sites that'll run DDR4 3600 for both platforms.

Also, if the official max supported memory speed for Zen 3 is DDR4 3200, why is AMD releasing gaming slides with overclocked memory (DDR4 3600)? It's probable that it helps AMD's numbers more than Intel's. So, Zen 3's fast cores probably are starved more ala Comet Lake's than Zen 2's.

 

[moinmoin]

Intel must be looking back fondly on the days when they could release single core desktop CPUs for $1,000 a pop.

Indeed. I guess AMD can actually claim all those folks proclaiming to be "sticker shocked" as a success since nothing shows more that AMD successfully normalized more cores than this behavior. One small step toward becoming a brand that is the envy of some folks that can't or don't want to shell out the asked price tags. Still a far cry from Intel's consumer desktop SKUs of the past (for now AMD's Threadripper line is there to take that role).

 

[Shivansps]

See reply to AtenRa above. AMD probably isn't too worried. Those Rocket Lake CPUs are gonna be power hungry.

Considering the 3600 is AMD best selling Ryzen CPU and they archived that at a maximum price of $200, being most of the time below that mark, with the 2600 being near covering the $150 slot, and Intel best sold CPU was the 9400F now the 10400, all sub $200, they better be worried because a 5600 at $250 is not going to be the same.

And as a consumer im worried because if there is no new 6C at $200 or below from AMD this may make Intel do the same with Rocket Lake and at that point all new 6C will be over $200, with all new 4C/8T going up again.

Now if you tell me that AMD wants to make a 5400 with 6C with maybe less cache and turbos than the 5600 below the $200 mark that will be good.

But i think they are going to use Cezanne for that, even if they are more expensive to make they get a far better margin of selling CPUs over $200 and Cezanne is going to be slower.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Considering the 3600 is AMD best selling Ryzen CPU and they archived that at a maximum price of $200, being most of the time below that mark, with the 2600 being near covering the $150 slot, and Intel best sold CPU was the 9400F now the 10400, all sub $200, they better be worried because a 5600 over $200 is not going to be the same.

People aren't going to buy Rocket Lake over a 3600 when they see what they have to do to cool it.

 

[Zucker2k]

People aren't going to buy Rocket Lake over a 3600 when they see what they have to do to cool it.

Do you have a rocket lake-s chip? Others are catching flack because everybody's saying wait for reviews but here you are passing off wild speculation as fact.
I'm more worried about why Zen 3 has dropped tdp and base clocks. Do you think thermals have anything to do with that?
Comet Lake-S has better stock thermals than Zen 2, so maybe Intel knows how to cool a chip with a 250w tdp

 

[Mopetar]

1. Appeal to authority - the cheapest way out of an argument.

I am not a statistician, but I did have to take a lot of statistics classes in college and Mark is correct. Tech forums aren't the best place to present the formulas that can be applied to show why he's correct and unless you're willing to accept him at his word or go through the proofs in order to convince yourself that no one is pulling wool over your eyes there's little point in trying to dive into it. Dismissing an authority isn't an argument either.

I'm not even sure how you can claim AMD used outliers without knowing what the actual distribution of performance across the titles looks like. You could say that it's entirely possible the AMD cherry picked titles to skew the results, but to definitely claim it's the case simply can't be done. Anyone who says to wait for reviews and a larger number of games is correct that we'll get an average we can be more confident in, but it doesn't mean the one we have now must be wrong. Unless AMD did cherry pick better than average results and the 10 games aren't representative of the larger set, we shouldn't expect to see the actual average performance differ by more than about 6%.

 

[AtenRa]

People aren't going to buy Rocket Lake over a 3600 when they see what they have to do to cool it.

The same they have to do to cool 10400F ??

People buy 10400F today over 3600, they will buy rocketlake over 3600 when release being cheaper and faster.

 

[Kenmitch]

He's not the only one speculating here. Why single him out? Or, we're all supposed to swallow AMD slides and jump on the bandwagon?

Maybe because he jumped into the thread and went all Negative Nancy on his 1st posting. Proceeded to carry on. Not one mention of how much improvement AMD made, etc....Looks like he's just pimping!

Maybe they didn't because they didn't get the desired result?

You pretty much did the same thing.

 

[coercitiv]

People aren't going to buy Rocket Lake over a 3600 when they see what they have to do to cool it.

Intel will have no problem cooling their value RKL-S SKUs, and maybe even the flagship (assuming they use the same tricks as with 10th gen). Power per core goes up, number of cores go down. Zero sum.

 

[JustMe21]

I remember a time , not so long ago when AMD pricing too low would be taken as a sign they wouldn't deliver on performance , or there'd be catch (poor perf/watt, weak ST, or , or in the case of past Ryzen processors - not so competitive gaming performance) .

Perhaps instead of all the outrage over $50, people could see this a sign these CPU's mean business and will meet expectations with little in the way of 'strings attached'.

In all honesty I think the 'sticker' shock brought on by the previous generations pricing is the only thing preventing AMD from pricing these CPU's even higher. Whilst it's disapointing to see Perf/$ won't be pushed higher than their predecessors on at least ONE SKU -the 5600x ( something I think is important to do when introducting a new generation ) , it is still well ahead of the competition, and I think is AMD's justification here.

The problem is AMD is still working on brand recognition and price was one of the biggest things that made their brand so recognizable. People think that both Intel and Nvidia have been price gouging us, so AMD was the great equalizer by forcing the others to be more competitive in offerings and pricing. I don't think people would be so upset with the $50 price hike if it also came with a CPU cooler, so without it, it's more like a $80 - $100 price hike. While Zen 2, especially in the laptop market, has given AMD more notoriety, if they price like Intel and Nvidia, then eventually when Intel matures their 10nm process and when both hit 5nm, Intel will pull back ahead, because it has more manufacturing and marketing muscle. And when Nvidia hits 5nm along with AMD, then AMD will lose it's node size advantage and Nvidia doesn't have to split its R&D budget between a CPU and GPU division yet. These are lessons AMD should have learned from the Athlon days.

The Zen architecture is still relatively new, so on the enterprise side, people are not only looking for performance, but also comatibility and long term reliability, thus why a lot of corporations still stick with Intel. The Zen 3 series with their cache and NUMA improvements in addition to their processor performance, finally look like a viable contender, so I would expect their market share in the enterprise environment to improve, but AMD will also have to at some point start maturing their architecture so companies don't have to guess whether an architecture change will affect compatibility and performance. As for Intel, even if they switch to a chiplet architecture, they have their brand strength to keep people buying it despite a major architectural change. So, what is AMD's advantage in the enterprise environment as well? Price.

 

[Shivansps]

The same they have to do to cool 10400F ??

People buy 10400F today over 3600, they will buy rocketlake over 3600 when release being cheaper and faster.

Exactly, AMD idea of having the 2600 at $150 and the 3600 at $200 with some times dropping to $180 worked when Intel had the 9400F at 160-180, the 10400 at 180 is both faster and cheapper than the 3600, it also comes with a gpu for non-gaming uses that does not make the CPU slower. That is a problem for AMD.

If a 6C RL chip replaces the 10400 at $180, AMD needs a 6C Zen3 at $200 or below no way around that, and the 5600 at 250 is not going to work. The 3600 (if they keep producing it) would need to go to $150 or below.

And if Intel and AMD do not launch a 6C at $200 or below because prices are going up across the board we all lost.

 

[jpiniero]

Vermeer's not going to work for enterprise. You need the IGP. Doesn't need to be much, Vega 3 would be perfect, but you need the IGP. Given the demand destruction brought on by The Rona, you have to think that AMD will not focus too much on enterprise desktop despite being most of the market.

Intel will have no problem cooling their value RKL-S SKUs, and maybe even the flagship (assuming they use the same tricks as with 10th gen). Power per core goes up, number of cores go down. Zero sum.

There isn't really going to be value SKUs for Rocket Lake (if Intel does release it) - most of the 11th Gen S is going to be Comet Lake rebrands.

 

[Shivansps]

Vermeer's not going to work for enterprise. You need the IGP. Doesn't need to be much, Vega 3 would be perfect, but you need the IGP. Given the demand destruction brought on by The Rona, you have to think that AMD will not focus too much on enterprise desktop despite being most of the market.

AMD really needs to put a basic IGP into the I/O die and be done with it. It would be usefull even for server boards.

 

[rainy]

I'm more worried about why Zen 3 has dropped tdp and base clocks. Do you think thermals have anything to do with that?

To be exact: TDP of 5800X/5900X/5950X is identical (105W) to their predecessors from Matisse family, for 5600X is lower (65W instead of 95W).
Base clock has dropped 100 MHz, however Turbo/Boost is 100 MHz (200 MHz for 5600X) higher.
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/microarchitectures/zen_3
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/cores/matisse

Btw, since when higher performance with a lower TDP isn't a good thing?

 

[IEC]

Even better: You can set a PPT limit on your processor to limit it to whatever you want. I run my 3950X @ 87W PPT. This means on lightly threaded workloads like games I lose nothing and on multicore workloads I run at superb efficiency.

I'll probably pick up a Zen 3 chip at some point, but not in a hurry since I don't game at 1080p.

 

[TheGiant]

Even better: You can set a PPT limit on your processor to limit it to whatever you want. I run my 3950X @ 87W PPT. This means on lightly threaded workloads like games I lose nothing and on multicore workloads I run at superb efficiency.

I'll probably pick up a Zen 3 chip at some point, but not in a hurry since I don't game at 1080p.

I am doing exactly that
Except 144hz gaming is a dissapointment on even hand tuned 3900x

 

[inf64]

Even better: You can set a PPT limit on your processor to limit it to whatever you want. I run my 3950X @ 87W PPT. This means on lightly threaded workloads like games I lose nothing and on multicore workloads I run at superb efficiency.

I'll probably pick up a Zen 3 chip at some point, but not in a hurry since I don't game at 1080p.

Could you tell me what is the maximum PPT you can set in BIOS for your 3950X? Are you able to go over 105W? I wonder if it's possible to tweak Zen3 to achieve a higher than default boost via PPT/PBO tweaks.

 

[Nereus77]

Vermeer looks amazing! How crazy is that IPC bump? I can't wait for AnandTech to put it through its paces!

I like how people don't understand that the 5600 and 5700 are coming later. Sure, AMD are launching 4 CPUs and only 4 CPUs on Vermeer 😂 If you don't like the X CPUs wait until the non-Xs arrive. The X' s are here for the gaming crown and showcase the best AMD have to offer. The value CPUs will be coming later...

Also, why get a 7nm AMD with a 19% bump in IPC when there's yet another 14nm 5GHz+ power hungry Intel CPU down the road??! Don't you know that if you make a big enough fire in the steam train it will go just as fast as a diesel one??! 🤔

I remember the AMD purists making similar claims to what the Intel purists are making now when it was AMDs turn against the ropes. Rocketlake will look eerily similar to Bulldozer FX CPUs with 5GHz 400W black edition CPUs trying to keep up with the competition.

I think AMD may have the premier CPU range for some time to come...

 

[lobz]

CPU-bound can mean many things - as @Carfax83 pointed out even Doom Eternal is CPU-bound at 1080p, but it does not mean that the gap from Intel will be around the 20% mark every time in CPU-bound scenarios when other games are showing a 5% gap. Such large gains occur less frequently and I have shown that they are the exception rather than the norm and should be excluded when calculating averages from a sample that is not representative.

At least you're wrong with a conviction, so you have something going for you after all.

 

[lobz]

Maybe they didn't because they didn't get the desired result?

Seriously? But they shoved how they lose in BFV after getting an abysmal 5% improvement upon Zen 2? Please.