**Official NFL SUPERMAN Thread - Broncos Win! 24-10!!

[purbeast0]

what i've learned in this thread:

not being the GOAT = being a bum.

you guys are funny.

 

[zinfamous]

Did you really put a QB who's greatest accomplishment was to sire two superbowl winning children in the same list as Kelly, Tarkenton and Kelly? Really? 😵

So Kelly is that good, eh?

 

[Ackmed]

He played how many years in Indy, in a dome? The RCA Dome and then Lucas Oil Stadium.


A lot of Manning's records are simply due to longevity in a system designed on volume passing. Nothing against him for being able to continuously come out and perform, but those records aren't exactly an entire story for a career. The guy has only won 2 rings.

Brady has had a MUCH more stable environment. Manning went to the SB with four different coaches. Brady? The same one for all. But I can see your 'logic' isn't very good, only 2 rings means he was terrible. Ugh, kids these days.

 

[SP33Demon]

You want to talk about him being the best, he better have some hardware to show for it.

5 MVPs, a record for the modern era, speaks for itself. You have to be joking if you think Brady in his prime was better than Peyton. Manning holds most of the significant records (total TDs career and single season, passing yards career and single season, total wins including playoffs, 4th Q comebacks, MVPs) that may never be broken. Peyton in a Belichick offense would have been unfair because then they'd have more deep ball ability, not just dink and dunk with Brady. Matt Cassel pulled 11 wins in that system when Brady went down in 08 and just imagine what Peyton would have done.

 

[SP33Demon]

"Possession" receivers don't ring up big yardage numbers, Brady had ONE top-ten WR play for him and that was Moss for a couple of seasons, the results showed as he threw for 50 TD's. Sure, Welker in his prime was one of the best ever as is Edeleman now but let's be honest here, are either of them able to stretch the field like Harrison did for PM?,.. no. So PM, (who I think very highly of and is a 1st ballot HOF'er) gets this SB handed to him by the Denver D and all of a sudden you rank Brady as an "also-ran" somewhere around 5-6?. That's just being a homer if there ever was one. PM's 2 SB's were against the Rex-Grossman led Bears and another "Trent Dilfer" job. Actually that's an insult to Trent who managed a QBR of 80.9 vs the 56.6 PM crawled to Sunday. Of course you just couldn't resist posting a link to Brady getting booed in the MVP intros, gee, think that might have something to do with Denver playing in the game?.

Possession receivers in that BB scheme are everything. Like this year when Edelman wasn't playing, 34% 3rd down conversions and 50% with him. Harrison stretched the field because Manning can throw the deep ball as well as anyone in his prime, we cannot say the same about Brady which is why BB's scheme plays to its strengths (short pass) better than anyone in the league. They are so good with possession receivers getting separation and TB's short ball accuracy that they can win without the deep ball.
Brady isn't an also-ran but he's not on par with Manning and Montana. You cannot dispute that Elway and Marino had better deep balls and Elway was a better rushing back than Brady to boot. I'd argue that in the same scheme they would be just as successful as Brady and probably moreso because of deep ball ability. I obviously give more credit to the scheme than Brady and you can bet the farm that BB would scheme the deep ball if he had Marino or Elway or Peyton or Montana. This is why I rank Brady lower than them, because of physical limitations. He is great with the short pass, but that's something many other QBs could pick up. You can't teach consistent deep ball accuracy, it's an inherent talent and Brady has gotten slightly better but not good enough for BB to scheme it outside of desperation time.

 

[SP33Demon]

So you think Marino is the all time best QB?

Physically, yes he has to be in the argument - he had very few weaknesses. Rocket arm, deep ball precision, short ball precision, fastest release anyone had seen from a QB (think Steph Curry's shot), amazing durability and toughness. More game winning drives than Brady, 3 time MVP. And he averaged 253.6 ypg over 17 years in an era where the defense crushed QBs and there was none of this roughing the passer/personal foul crap you see today when someone lovetaps them. His only problem was his teams were pretty bad despite his stellar performance.

Going by the Approximate Value metric (pro-football-reference.com), Brady does edge out Marino 223 to 216 but that should give you an idea of how great he was:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/av_career.htm
1. Peyton Manning 271 1998-2015 2TM
2. Brett Favre 255 1991-2010 4TM
3. Jerry Rice+ 250 1985-2004 3TM
4. Fran Tarkenton+ 236 1961-1978 2TM
5. Reggie White+ 226 1985-2000 3TM
6. Bruce Smith+ 225 1985-2003 2TM
7. Tom Brady 223 2000-2015 nwe
Ray Lewis 223 1996-2012 rav
9. Dan Marino+ 216 1983-1999 mia
10. Bruce Matthews+ 212 1983-2001 oti

Marino is also ranked in the top 10 clutch QBs ever despite never winning a ring:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-top-ten/09000d5d810a55d6/Top-Ten-Clutch-QBs-Dan-Marino

Also a good video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O1BpDLTJns
Ask Marino what he thought of Cam Newton not jumping on that fumble in the SB in what may be his only chance to win a ring, ever.

 

[emperus]

Possession receivers in that BB scheme are everything. Like this year when Edelman wasn't playing, 34% 3rd down conversions and 50% with him. Harrison stretched the field because Manning can throw the deep ball as well as anyone in his prime, we cannot say the same about Brady which is why BB's scheme plays to its strengths (short pass) better than anyone in the league. They are so good with possession receivers getting separation and TB's short ball accuracy that they can win without the deep ball.
Brady isn't an also-ran but he's not on par with Manning and Montana. You cannot dispute that Elway and Marino had better deep balls and Elway was a better rushing back than Brady to boot. I'd argue that in the same scheme they would be just as successful as Brady and probably moreso because of deep ball ability. I obviously give more credit to the scheme than Brady and you can bet the farm that BB would scheme the deep ball if he had Marino or Elway or Peyton or Montana. This is why I rank Brady lower than them, because of physical limitations. He is great with the short pass, but that's something many other QBs could pick up. You can't teach consistent deep ball accuracy, it's an inherent talent and Brady has gotten slightly better but not good enough for BB to scheme it outside of desperation time.

Lol. You really do not know much about the Patriots. The lack of deep ball throws is yes somewhat of a scheme thing but because it's a personnel thing. I know you like stats so go look back on the last time they actually had a receiver who could stretch the field and what Brady did with that. Manning wouldn't have been any better with the WR personnel the Pats have had over the years. I know you really don't follow the Pats, but a constant drumbeat in these parts is Belichick not giving BRady the WR help other great QB's get and what his career would have been if he had.

2ndly it is harder to put up the numbers Brady does without that vertical threat. Teams sit on the shorter routes, which forces Brady to be even more accurate throwing them. Most coaches would prefer a 10 play touchdown drive than an 18 play TD drive. More chance for error. In fact that's what NE's defense relies on. Play solid defense between the 20's, not giving up any big plays because it's harder to sustain those dink and dunk offenses. There is just a high degree of precision to make every pass in the Patriots offense.

And Harrison stretched the field because he was the 19th pick in the 96 draft running a 4.38 40. In fact what I remember from watching him is Manning throwing Lobs and Harrison generally outrunning the defense to the balls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cuj7lBm-pE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbB_lUc8w3g
Look at some of those catches in those clips and tell me how many were great throws vs. Harrison just flat out beating the defenders.

 

[SunnyD]

So Kelly is that good, eh?

2 seasons in the USFL, 9,842 yards, 83 TDs & 63% COMP.
MVP in '84 with 5,219 yards and 44 TDs.

5 time Pro-Bowl selection.
4 consecutive trips to the Superbowl.
Lead the NFL in passer rating for the '90 season.

Nearly 10% better completion percentage, ~20,000 more career yards (USFL & NFL) and more importantly a positive TD-to-INT ratio over Archie.

Yeah, Archie's teams never even had a chance of ever making it to the playoffs, but even so his stats are abysmal and not even in the same ballpark for being in the league for 13 years. I'd definitely put Kelly in the top tier of QB's. Archie Manning doesn't even belong in the conversation.

 

[Perknose]

2ndly it is harder to put up the numbers Brady does without that vertical threat. Teams sit on the shorter routes, which forces Brady to be even more accurate throwing them.

This. Brady is the best ever at the short pass, even often w/o much of a running game or a deep threat. Saying "many other QBs could pick this up" is not something I can agree with.

 

[zinfamous]

2 seasons in the USFL, 9,842 yards, 83 TDs & 63% COMP.
MVP in '84 with 5,219 yards and 44 TDs.

5 time Pro-Bowl selection.
4 consecutive trips to the Superbowl.
Lead the NFL in passer rating for the '90 season.

Nearly 10% better completion percentage, ~20,000 more career yards (USFL & NFL) and more importantly a positive TD-to-INT ratio over Archie.

Yeah, Archie's teams never even had a chance of ever making it to the playoffs, but even so his stats are abysmal and not even in the same ballpark for being in the league for 13 years. I'd definitely put Kelly in the top tier of QB's. Archie Manning doesn't even belong in the conversation.

(hint: you missed the joke. Should I have instead typed: "I really like Kelly!" :sneaky🙂 Look at what/how I quoted you. 😉

 

[RPD]

There will never be a definitive way to say who was the "best" QB is/was. Just more of a consensus on who is in the top 5. The order will vary on what that person values more.

I will say this if you don't think Dan Mario was one of the greatest your have blinders one. The stats he put up when the rules were COMPLETELY different is insane.

 

[Ackmed]

The problem is that a lot of people didn't see him play. He's from yesteryear. There was no social media to spread him around, no DVR to watch games. People may see a highlight or two today and that's it. Same can be said about most from the past. Marino is definitely one of the best ever.

 

[gorcorps]

The problem is that a lot of people didn't see him play. He's from yesteryear. There was no social media to spread him around, no DVR to watch games. People may see a highlight or two today and that's it. Same can be said about most from the past. Marino is definitely one of the best ever.

I think that's the problem with ranking with older players. Less and less people every day remember how they played, if they ever saw them at all. To be honest I can't even give a good opinion of how Elway played, because I was young at the time and definitely not into football as much as I am now. I don't have a good idea how Marino played, or Steve Young, or Jerry Rice, or Lawrence Taylor, etc... other than stories through rose tinted glasses and highlights from NFL specials.

 

[SunnyD]

(hint: you missed the joke. Should I have instead typed: "I really like Kelly!" :sneaky🙂 Look at what/how I quoted you. 😉

That's what I get for multitasking. :thumbsup:

Now you've reminded me of the old SNL Jim Kelly skit.

 

[Captante]

Archie Manning was a pretty good QB albeit clearly not in the top 10 best of all time. Keep in mind however that not only were the "Aint's" no threat to make the playoffs every year, they played in a different era with no cap and all the good players going to winning teams. The rich just got richer and the poor teams stayed that way.

Jim Kelly on the other hand was a terrific QB and Dan Marino was no question among the best pure passers to ever play the game. Both clearly belong in the top 10 and if more people here had actually seem them play I doubt there would be any debate. Just looking at the numbers alone doesn't tell the story.

 

[zinfamous]

I think that's the problem with ranking with older players. Less and less people every day remember how they played, if they ever saw them at all. To be honest I can't even give a good opinion of how Elway played, because I was young at the time and definitely not into football as much as I am now. I don't have a good idea how Marino played, or Steve Young, or Jerry Rice, or Lawrence Taylor, etc... other than stories through rose tinted glasses and highlights from NFL specials.

I watched football from time to time in those days, but not nearly as much as I do now. Besides that, like you, I was young and really wouldn't have been able to gauge anything.

All I knew was that guys like Montana and Marino and Elway were "the best" at the time and it was perfectly fine to accept that as it was.

The most I recall about Elway, even before the final two years, was his thorough and unrighteous pasting by Montana and the Niners in that SB. 55-10.

To this day, I recall taunting another kid at school (5th grade), who was a huge Elway fan and spoke at length about how amazing he was and how great he was yada yada. Thing is, I didn't give a shit about either team, player, much less football in general. I suppose my 5th-grade mind felt that it was perfectly reasonable to go after another human being in such a way simply by virtue of their attachment to the subject. Mom driving me home after school, seeing the guy mope his way home on the sidewalk, football nestled under his arm, and me yelling out the window "55-10! HahahAHAHAHAHHA 55-10!" Poor guy was so sad, and I still feel bad to this day. 🙁

But hey, some of us actually grow out of that kind of douchenozzelry. 😉

 

[zinfamous]

That's what I get for multitasking. :thumbsup:

Now you've reminded me of the old SNL Jim Kelly skit.

lol, totally forgot about that sketch and Jim Kelly's appearance. I always recall Kevin Nealon opening Weekend Update with:

"Well, today marks the start of the NFL season, and the only question on everyone's mind: Who are the Buffalo Bills going to lose to in the Super Bowl this year?"

😀

 

[Bitek]

Pardon me, but I think you dropped these.

Say what you want, but the man has had an incredible career on both sides of the sideline, and its the combination of the two which defines his legacy.

As a player he took his team to five super bowls and won two. As the GM he's taken the team to two more. In all, 7 of 8 AFC championships by the broncos came under Elway's stewardship.

Even the years they didn't go to the super bowl they were contenders. 12 of the 15 AFC West championships were again with Elway in the stadium, as QB or GM. Yeah, even one of their 23 playoff wins was with Tebow.

Obviously it's a whole team effort, but Elway has always been in the center of it. Farve may hold more on the field stats, but all he's done after he took off the pads was make commercials.

I would take Elway's total value add to the broncos over Payton's any day (to either of the horse teams) until he proves he does more than Omahas and pizzas. Impressive career no doubt, but it's hard to find a player to truly compare Elway's career to.

 

[Ackmed]

The most I recall about Elway, even before the final two years, was his thorough and unrighteous pasting by Montana and the Niners in that SB. 55-10.

To this day, I recall taunting another kid at school (5th grade), who was a huge Elway fan and spoke at length about how amazing he was and how great he was yada yada.

My first name is Denver. Sure, it's not a bad name to have right now. Back then in school? Fucking sucked, people like you teasing endlessly. Dammit you! Got beat almost as bad by the Redskins a few years earlier too. Got beat by the Giants the year before that. Lost 3 SB's out of 4 years. Was a terrible few years for a kid with the first name Denver.

 

[Phoenix86]

Physically, yes he has to be in the argument...

I think he's worthy of discussing for sure, probably in the top 10, maybe top 5. However, I don't think many would rank him #1, which is the point. As your numbers show 9th and 10th. It's not like he's #1 on many stats but just came up short in getting a ring. edit: just realized that list is all players, but even then he's below other QBs.

 

[Captante]

Personally I still think Joe Montana was the best I've ever seen and Elway in his prime was a solid number two. Keep in mind that in his prime as a QB he got killed in 3 SB's because his teams had no defense or running game to speak of. It wasn't until he had a team with both of those facets he actually won rings.

Peyton is a great all-time QB and no question 1st ballot hall-of famer, but he's also a stat-compiler (much like Brett Favre) and in my opinion not on the level of the absolute best.

 

[zinfamous]

My first name is Denver. Sure, it's not a bad name to have right now. Back then in school? Fucking sucked, people like you teasing endlessly. Dammit you! Got beat almost as bad by the Redskins a few years earlier too. Got beat by the Giants the year before that. Lost 3 SB's out of 4 years. Was a terrible few years for a kid with the first name Denver.

😀

 

[Phoenix86]

Say what you want, but the man has had an incredible career on both sides of the sideline, and its the combination of the two which defines his legacy.

It's not that he hasn't had a great career as a QB or GM. It's not that his overall legacy isn't improved by both.

For me, this game solidified that the broncos still are Elway's team and he truly is the greatest QB of all time.

It's that you are applying his current effort as GM to his previous career as QB, which is clear bias, unless you're looking through those glasses of course. Which you are.

 

[angminas]

I started watching the Broncos before Elway. I didn't see every game, but I saw a lot, and I saw every Super Bowl. I'd take Elway over anybody else to ever play the game, at any position, easily, with no hesitation. What he brought to the field didn't always show up in stats. I've never been a "winning is the only thing" kind of guy, but there's an extra something in winners that makes them overachieve. If you ever want to understand what it means to give 110%, just watch Elway.

You see what Elway has done as a GM? That's what he did as a player. Better controlled and focused as his career progressed, granted, but that's true of most. He is far and away the #1 reason the Broncos won this Super Bowl. Every single player and staff member on that field was there because Elway chose to put or keep him there. If voting were sane and honest, he'd have won like six MVPs.

Now imagine if he had played for Belichick. Brady won the freaking Powerball.

 

[SP33Demon]

I think he's worthy of discussing for sure, probably in the top 10, maybe top 5. However, I don't think many would rank him #1, which is the point. As your numbers show 9th and 10th. It's not like he's #1 on many stats but just came up short in getting a ring. edit: just realized that list is all players, but even then he's below other QBs.

Yes, I would definitely say top 5 like that list suggests. Marino with today's rules would be like Drew Brees' style on roids and would be a good bet would shatter even Peyton's passing records. He and Elway were tough tough SOBs and are high on my list off grit and raw talent alone. Unfortunately I never got to see Otto Graham, Unitas, and Tarkenton play but from what I've heard they are great. Then of course Montana, Brady, and Favre are in there as well.
So top tier (rearrange as you see fit):
Montana
Peyton
Brady
Marino
Elway

2nd top tier:
Favre
Young

Legendary tier (that I never got to see play):
Graham
Unitas
Tarkenton

2nd Legendary tier:
Starr
Bradshaw
Staubach

3rd tier greatest:
Brees (could jump tiers)
Aaron Rodgers (could jump tiers)
Kelly
Warner
Aikman

Possible HOF tier still currently playing:
Big Ben
Eli Manning
Russell Wilson