***Official GeForce GTX660/GTX650 Review Thread***

[railven]

I'll go ahead and throw out one major advantage of the 660. It is nearly as fast as the 7870, but is available in a 7 inch model from Zotac, whereas the shortest 7850 is the 7.7 inch MSI TF3, while the shortest 7870 appears to be around 10 inches.

That to me is a huge perk for nVidia cards the last two generations. Not sure what AMD is doing (yeah yeah, argue quality components versus *chinese knock-offs), but can their cards seriously get any longer?

 

[Ferzerp]

Gotcha. Guess, I'll just leave it at that.

I've never claimed to be flawless. It's a bad practice, but there are times when everyone gets tired of endless explaining and will just make the questions go away so that everyone can get back to doing what needs to be done.

Legitimate ideas never generate this response. Typically, it is when the other individual is trying to either a) whine to make their pet view (that I/we've already evaluated and dismissed) be addressed again b) is talking to hear themselves talk (we all work with those kinds), or c) is trying to generate huge masses of work for others with little, no, or negative gain to the organization. The nice thing is, if they can still support their view when given the firehose of info on why a current design or action plan is what it is, then they probably have a good idea that needs more evaluation and the rest of us have missed something. But yes, at its core, it is more of an argument tactic than it is an education or discussion tactic (with heavy roots in arrogance and is used when the interest is no longer in discussing, but making the other party go away).

 

[railven]

I've never claimed to be flawless. It's a bad practice, but there are times when everyone gets tired of endless explaining and will just make the questions go away so that everyone can get back to doing what needs to be done.

Legitimate ideas never generate this response. Typically, it is when the other individual is trying to either a) whine to make their pet view (that I/we've already evaluated and dismissed) be addressed again b) is talking to hear themselves talk (we all work with those kinds), or c) is trying to generate huge masses of work for others with little, no, or negative gain to the organization. The nice thing is, if they can still support their view when given the firehose of info on why a current design or action plan is what it is, then they probably have a good idea that needs more evaluation and the rest of us have missed something. But yes, at its core, it is more of an argument tactic than it is an education or discussion tactic (with heavy roots in arrogance and is used when the interest is no longer in discussing, but making the other party go away).

Sure, and again - such a negative generalization. Sure, you're guilty of it - thus, guess, we all are. You don't know the doctors (or situations) I work in, yet you have an answer.

And here is a clear example, correct? So I'll support it - I have no interest to rebuttal, so consider me intimidated

 

[The_Golden_Man]

The GTX 660 is a very nice card from Nvidia. It has it's place in the market, unlike the GTX 660Ti.

GTX 660 is a tad faster VS GTX 580, it has 2GB VRAM, it draws very little power (Only needing one 6-pin connector), it's very small and it has a very nice price. And it also competes very well with AMD's Radeon 7870.

 

[boxleitnerb]

btt

 

[Ferzerp]

Sure, and again - such a negative generalization. Sure, you're guilty of it - thus, guess, we all are. You don't know the doctors (or situations) I work in, yet you have an answer.

And here is a clear example, correct? So I'll support it - I have no interest to rebuttal, so consider me intimidated

Nope, not trying to intimidate you. I do see that you're suggesting that since I can recognize when I behave that way, it automatically disqualifies me from recognizing that behavior in others because I must be projecting. Sadly, this isn't the case.

I work in healthcare too. I've seen the MD intimidation tactic often. I don't work directly with patient care, so I'm outside of the "Doctors are the gods" culture and am only tangentially touching it. Enough to witness it, and form my own opinions of it, but not enough to have to deal with it.

 

[railven]

Nope, not trying to intimidate you. I do see that you're suggesting that since I can recognize when I behave that way, it automatically disqualifies me from recognizing that behavior in others because I must be projecting. Sadly, this isn't the case.

Not at all, I understand you have an opinion of it, and I respect that. And it is perhaps you experience it so often that you project it onto other's so easily. I guess I still believe in "benefit of the doubt" mentallity - however, on other social behaviors, I am quite jaded.

I work in healthcare too. I've seen the MD intimidation tactic often. I don't work directly with patient care, so I'm outside of the "Doctors are the gods" culture and am only tangentially touching it. Enough to witness it, and form my own opinions of it, but not enough to have to deal with it.

Note I didn't specify which type of doctor. If I have a question and I ask the pathologists, he'll answer it and add a little extra (without me, as you said, bothering them or them adding to the workload - people can multitask.) If I have a question and ask the attending/resident doctors, I'll be lucky to get an answer outside of the "because I said so" response. And I've learned not to even bother with Surgeons haha.

 

[Ferzerp]

Fair enough

 

[thilanliyan]

Typically, it is when the other individual is trying to either a) whine to make their pet view (that I/we've already evaluated and dismissed) be addressed again b) is talking to hear themselves talk (we all work with those kinds), or c) is trying to generate huge masses of work for others with little, no, or negative gain to the organization.

Or d)When others post FUD in this forum specifically. RS I believe linked to several reviews when others claimed AMD sucked in BF3 and Arkham City. Others posted older reviews, and he linked to newer reviews showing the AMD cards doing better...and that he did that is a GOOD thing IMO since it was the truth.

Granted, the wall of text is a bit hard to read sometimes but I don't believe it is out of some sort of desperation on his part.

 

[Ferzerp]

I think that's how it's started, but now it looks like an ownership thing. "This is my forum. The information will be what I want it to be."

I never suggested any desperation.

edit: not sure why I'm bothering, these video card flame wars I find really stupid. Both companies have really good products out there right now.

 

[thilanliyan]

I will say it's the high end of Kepler, much like GF100 and GF110 are the high end of Fermi.

I will say Nvidia failed to deliver a high end 6xx series product.

Personally I think "high end" is based on what is out at the moment. Whether nV or AMD has a higher specced card waiting in the wings is mostly irrelevant IMO, if it is not released and not confirmed by them. In the same vein, I guess AMD failed to deliver a high end card this round because the 7990 would have been their high end, making the 7970 their mid-range card, although they charged high end prices for it (their right to do so). I would argue the GTX690 is nV's high end card although it was released in limited quantities.

 

[thilanliyan]

I think that's how it's started, but now it looks like an ownership thing. "This is my forum. The information will be what I want it to be."

I don't know him personally but I have exchanged PMs with him on several different topics and he never came off as someone thinking in that way...but that is just my opinion.

 

[Ferzerp]

Oh, I could be off base, but I have seen replies that don't even address what they are replying to, they are just more walls of text, links, and pictures to other's work such that if a person weren't paying attention, they'd feel that the person replied to had been effectively rebutted.

 

[Termie]

That to me is a huge perk for nVidia cards the last two generations. Not sure what AMD is doing (yeah yeah, argue quality components versus *chinese knock-offs), but can their cards seriously get any longer?

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks so!

Here's the Zotac GTX660 at 7 inches: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814500270

Here's the MSI HD7850 TF3 at 7.8 inches: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814127663

And here's the shortest HD7870 I could find, the Powercolor, at 9.5": http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814131466

 

[sze5003]

Yeh these topics go way off hand. Everyone here is pretty helpful though if you have questions its just opinions that get in the way.

Yeh amd cards are damn long. I had a 12.3 inch card that I returned. RS Offered me lots of info setting up the clocks and memory overclocking for that HIS card I had and we also talked a lot about other alternatives since my card was returned due to coil whine.

I find it very time consuming to go and find all these technical mumbo jumbo and then try to analyze it but I'm more of a give me the basics of this one, ok good now the competitor. I usually go for the most I can get for the highest price I'm willing to pay.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Personally I think "high end" is based on what is out at the moment. Whether nV or AMD has a higher specced card waiting in the wings is mostly irrelevant IMO, if it is not released and not confirmed by them. In the same vein, I guess AMD failed to deliver a high end card this round because the 7990 would have been their high end, making the 7970 their mid-range card, although they charged high end prices for it (their right to do so). I would argue the GTX690 is nV's high end card although it was released in limited quantities.

I don't look at it like that at all, you're talking performance I'm talking design. You're viewing things from a consumer perceptive, I'm viewing things from a technical perspective.

You could take a GTX 480, downclock it to 400MHz, and watch it get smoked by a 900Mhz GTX 460, performance is not the point, it never was.

That's why the whole "GHz" "Dual Card" "Next Gen" line of thought was so wrong, it makes no difference. The GTX 280 is still a high end design for it's time, the 8800 GTX is still a high end design from it's time. Does it matter that low end current cards from this generation are faster, not one bit.

By design Kepler is the Mid-Range product for Nvidia. By design the GTX 460, 560, 560 Ti, are all mid-range products based on design, not performance. The GTX 560Ti 448 is based on the high end design, there is a major difference between it and the original Ti.


The 690 is based on GK104, it's not high end. Get off the performance it's not the issue, I'm not saying GK110 would roll over AMD, I'm saying GK104 is a mid-range design that is all.

 

[Silverforce11]

The high end design has to take into account manufacturability. You seem to disregard such basic principles. It's not about paper specs, then both companies can design 1000mm2 dies with 500W TDP..

GK104 for "its time" is a high end design.

 

[boxleitnerb]

That is too much generalization. And don't exaggerate, your values are pure fantasy.

Manufacturability may mean terrible yields, meager yields, so-so yields... Then it depends on what they want to charge for it, how much profit (if any) they want to make. Depends on wafer allocation (more for GK107 for mobile design wins, none left for the high end). Too much variables.

From a technical and design point of view, GK104 is clearly not high end. It is marketed as such, though.

 

[MrK6]

The problem with this conversation is everyone is arguing semantics without defining their terms, which will lead to bickering ad nauseam. What is "high end" and what is "middle range" in your opinion? Is it pricing? Performance? Features? In the end this is a futile discussion because the market is what the market is, regardless of what you label products.

 

[boxleitnerb]

Well, you can clearly see a pattern when looking at Nvidias chips for the last 2 generations. They had large chips (GT200(b), GF100/110) and smaller ones. The Kepler family consists of GK107, 106, 104 and 110. That was known a long time ago. In that lineup, GK104 is not the fastest. If Nvidia would not release a larger chip at all, things would be different. But judging by the past and the fact of GK110's existence, I think things are pretty clear.

 

[chimaxi83]

I'm (not) surprised at who came back to resurrect the GK104 mid-range debate, and surprised as well that many a Fermi lover suddenly argue power consumption numbers when it benefits their argument.... a lot of level 9000 trolling in this failed thread.

 

[ocre]

you guys will argue about anything

the gk104 isnt the big kepler but it currently is the most powerful nvidia card on the market. From early design to production, its many years in the making. We can argue and invent to no end but the fact is clear, the gk104 is currently nvidia's top performer and will be until it is replaced. It is the design they used to fill the gtx680 monger.

It really matters little that the gk104 design evolved from the gf104. Intel blasted past AMD some many years ago with their core2 which evolved out of their weak mobile CPUs like the Pentium M. It doesnt much matter the path with the argument that is being made, what matters then? What it is.

Calling the gk104 a mid-ranged chip is like calling a Corolla a Camry. You really could if you want but its just sort of crazy. Probably still not gonna get it but its for real. The gk104 is the design nvidia is using and it is their most powerful GPU today, It is the high end, sorry if its too complicated. It may not be the high end some wanted, or they expected, but it is no doubt the high end from nvidia today. Its really insane to argue this.

Some other things to consider. Since some are so driven to use the inter code names.....well it still falls apart there too. Now think! Why do we see rumors of the gk110, where is the gk100? Is it gone? Where did it go? has anyone ever seen a glimpse that this code name ever produced a chip? NO!!! So lets use the code names. Gk10x series. Starts at 4 then we go up. GK104 then 106 and 107. Next should come the GK11X series which the GK110 is a part of. There has been no sight of a gk100 ever and from day one we heard it was always the gk110. The tens digit having a number one indicates it should be another series, not the same as the one the GK10X is in.

Since we are using these names you have to look at them all the way. In fermi the gf10x was their 400 series and the GF11x their 500 series. Although they were both fermi the 500 series was more powerful and fully improved over the 400 series. Right now the gk104 is the most powerful kepler card of the gk10X series and will be the highest most powerful GPU from Nvidia until their next series (700) which will start GK11X. The 600 series kepler cards are filled by the internal GK10X names and the gk104 is the highest performing nvidia GPU of this generation.

The highest performing GPU of a generation is not mid ranged its the highest performing card. I cant see how anyone can say otherwise. I understand that some people wanted a mammoth huge die like fermi but for the 600 series there will not be none. We have seen small die flagships in the past and this is the case currently. It make no sense to deny that the gk104 architecture is used in the 600 series as nvidia's flagship.

 

[SirPauly]

In the end this is a futile discussion because the market is what the market is.

Indeed.

 

[Silverforce11]

you guys will argue about anything

the gk104 isnt the big kepler but it currently is the most powerful nvidia card on the market. From early design to production, its many years in the making. We can argue and invent to no end but the fact is clear, the gk104 is currently nvidia's top performer and will be until it is replaced. It is the design they used to fill the gtx680 monger.

It really matters little that the gk104 design evolved from the gf104. Intel blasted past AMD some many years ago with their core2 which evolved out of their weak mobile CPUs like the Pentium M. It doesnt much matter the path with the argument that is being made, what matters then? What it is.

Calling the gk104 a mid-ranged chip is like calling a Corolla a Camry. You really could if you want but its just sort of crazy. Probably still not gonna get it but its for real. The gk104 is the design nvidia is using and it is their most powerful GPU today, It is the high end, sorry if its too complicated. It may not be the high end some wanted, or they expected, but it is no doubt the high end from nvidia today. Its really insane to argue this.

Some other things to consider. Since some are so driven to use the inter code names.....well it still falls apart there too. Now think! Why do we see rumors of the gk110, where is the gk100? Is it gone? Where did it go? has anyone ever seen a glimpse that this code name ever produced a chip? NO!!! So lets use the code names. Gk10x series. Starts at 4 then we go up. GK104 then 106 and 107. Next should come the GK11X series which the GK110 is a part of. There has been no sight of a gk100 ever and from day one we heard it was always the gk110. The tens digit having a number one indicates it should be another series, not the same as the one the GK10X is in.

Since we are using these names you have to look at them all the way. In fermi the gf10x was their 400 series and the GF11x their 500 series. Although they were both fermi the 500 series was more powerful and fully improved over the 400 series. Right now the gk104 is the most powerful kepler card of the gk10X series and will be the highest most powerful GPU from Nvidia until their next series (700) which will start GK11X. The 600 series kepler cards are filled by the internal GK10X names and the gk104 is the highest performing nvidia GPU of this generation.

The highest performing GPU of a generation is not mid ranged its the highest performing card. I cant see how anyone can say otherwise. I understand that some people wanted a mammoth huge die like fermi but for the 600 series there will not be none. We have seen small die flagships in the past and this is the case currently. It make no sense to deny that the gk104 architecture is used in the 600 series as nvidia's flagship.

That's logic i can't argue with. We can agree on something for once.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

I'm (not) surprised at who came back to resurrect the GK104 mid-range debate, and surprised as well that many a Fermi lover suddenly argue power consumption numbers when it benefits their argument.... a lot of level 9000 trolling in this failed thread.

Are you having a hard time locating threads with Nvidia driver issues to post in? There was nothing of value in your post so I have to assume it was meant to add to the troll post you were referencing.