***Official*** 2018 Stock Market Thread

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dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,687
565
136
I don't know of there is one right answer to that question. There are a lot of factors involved: age, net worth, liquidity, risk appetite etc.

I've never reinvested dividends. I let the cash pile up so I have it ready for anything. Day trading opportunities can appear out of thin air.

I'm not saying that's right for everyone, it's just what I choose to do.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,189
4,855
126
So where ever possible, I elect to reinvest dividends. At what point does an investment become too large of a percentage of your total portfolio?
I reinvest dividends in tax-deferred accounts but never in taxable accounts. It is just too much of a pain to keep track of each micro-transaction for tax/donation purposes. Plus, dividend stocks just are better placed in tax-deferred accounts.

As for an investment being too large, you should determine how you want your investments divided and rebalance once a year or once every other year. The rebalancing act solves your "investment is too large" problem.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,486
2,363
136
I reinvest dividends in tax-deferred accounts but never in taxable accounts. It is just too much of a pain to keep track of each micro-transaction for tax/donation purposes. Plus, dividend stocks just are better placed in tax-deferred accounts.

As for an investment being too large, you should determine how you want your investments divided and rebalance once a year or once every other year. The rebalancing act solves your "investment is too large" problem.
Can't find specific articles to back it up, but from what I remember reading dividend reinvestment is a big part in achieving 7% return in the stock market. Without dividend reinvestment the return would be a lot lower. And what's the problem with micro-transactions? I understand it if you had to keep track of it yourself, but your brokerage will keep that information for you and send you 1099-DIV before filing date.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,789
4,773
75
And what's the problem with micro-transactions? I understand it if you had to keep track of it yourself, but your brokerage will keep that information for you and send you 1099-DIV before filing date.
And then my stupid H&R Block tax software insists that I verify every one. Actually I think Betterment is worse than average, because they do other transactions to maximize my profits. I had 115 transactions on my taxable account last year. :astonished:
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,189
4,855
126
Can't find specific articles to back it up, but from what I remember reading dividend reinvestment is a big part in achieving 7% return in the stock market. Without dividend reinvestment the return would be a lot lower. And what's the problem with micro-transactions? I understand it if you had to keep track of it yourself, but your brokerage will keep that information for you and send you 1099-DIV before filing date.
Theoretically a stock can go up by 7% in many ways. (A) The company can horde assets and then the company can become more and more valuable, its stock usually goes up (for example by 7%) to reflect that increase in assets. (B) The company can keep its asset balances the same and pay out excess money (which might be 7% dividends). (C) Or anything in between such as a 4% gain in company value and a 3% dividend. Paying dividends or not doesn't create or destroy money or value. Dividends are mostly a red-herring for the mathematically challenged. Facebook and Google (Alphabet) have done quite well without dividends.

That doesn't mean that dividends are not important though. Dividends are important and do contribute a lot to growth of your investments. Dividends tend to correlate with large, mature, stable companies which should be the bulk of your investments. Buying dividend stocks mean you are not using that money for small-cap growth stocks which usually don't pay dividends, usually underperform, and usually are volatile. You have the cause/effect backwards. Dividend companies are good investments not because of the dividends, but because they are more often than not good, profitable companies and thus have the cash to pay dividends.

I do have to keep track of the transactions myself (in the taxable account). Regulations didn't require brokerages to keep track of cost basis until the year 2014. I have plenty of stocks that I've held since before then. There is also a massive tax benefit to donating stocks from a taxable account instead of donating cash. But to maximize that benefit, you have to donate the stocks that have appreciated the most. Keeping track of each fractional share, when the dividend was paid, etc is a lot of hassle to maximize that tax benefit. I simply prefer to collect dividends for a couple of months and buy my stocks in a small number of lump sums when I'm certain that I want to invest in that stock at that time. It keeps my portfolio balanced, keeps me from buying when stocks are high, and keeps my paperwork small.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
29,391
2,738
126
I do have to keep track of the transactions myself (in the taxable account). Regulations didn't require brokerages to keep track of cost basis until the year 2014. I have plenty of stocks that I've held since before then. There is also a massive tax benefit to donating stocks from a taxable account instead of donating cash. But to maximize that benefit, you have to donate the stocks that have appreciated the most. Keeping track of each fractional share, when the dividend was paid, etc is a lot of hassle to maximize that tax benefit. I simply prefer to collect dividends for a couple of months and buy my stocks in a small number of lump sums when I'm certain that I want to invest in that stock at that time. It keeps my portfolio balanced, keeps me from buying when stocks are high, and keeps my paperwork small.
cost basis for stocks you donate?!

I thought you just write off the total value of the stock?

ie:
bought 1000 shares of N(ike) at $10/share.
donate 1000 shares at $11/share to the Red Cross a month later.
just write off the entire $11k??

why bother with cost basis?
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,189
4,855
126
cost basis for stocks you donate?!

I thought you just write off the total value of the stock?

ie:
bought 1000 shares of N(ike) at $10/share.
donate 1000 shares at $11/share to the Red Cross a month later.
just write off the entire $11k??

why bother with cost basis?
Answer 1: Tell that to Vanguard and their stupid donation form writers. Please. Convincing them would make my life much easier when it comes to donations.

Answer 2: Your example is way to simplistic. If you don't mind, I'll change the buying price to make the example more clear. Suppose you bought 1000 shares of Nike (NKE) at the split-adjusted equivalent of $25/share on Jan 18, 2012. Then you also have 400 shares. But over time through reinvested dividends you will also get:
  • 1.33 shares at $27.14/share from the Mar 1, 2012 dividend
  • 1.34 shares at $27.05/share from the May 31, 2012 dividend
  • 1.48 shares at $24.44/share from the Aug 30, 2012 dividend
  • 0.85 shares at $24.61/share from the Dec 6, 2012 dividend
  • 1.49 shares at $27.23/share from the Feb 28, 2013 dividend
  • etc, with more shares every few months.
  • Suppose you bought another $10000 of Nike at $51.57/share on May 23, 2017. That is 193.91 shares.
Now, suppose you want to donate $200 to the Red Cross. You could donate $200 of Nike Stock to do so. At today's $68.03 closing price, that would be 2.94 shares. But which 2.94 shares? Your brokerage didn't have to keep track of the cost basis as much of this stock was purchased before year 2014.

The mathematically optimal shares to donate would be 1.48 shares that you obtained on Aug 30, 2012 + 0.85 shares obtained on Dec 6, 2012 + 0.60 shares that you obtained on Jan 18, 2012 (leaving you with 399.40 shares from that date).

Why? Because you want to keep the shares with the least capital gains, which are the shares bought May 23, 2017. You don't want shares with high capital gains, which are the shares in the 3rd and 4th dividend payment in the list above. This is to avoid capital gains taxes when you do eventually sell.

This is just a simple example with a steadily growing stock. An automatic first in, first out plan would be almost as good ($25 cost basis is pretty close to $24.44). But first in, first out is terrible if the stock happened to have a sizable dip after you bought it and there were dividends paid during the dip. An automatic last in, first out plan would be really bad (as you want to keep the $51.57 shares with the least capital gains) in this example. Your brokerage didn't keep track. If you didn't keep track, then did you just screw yourself out of $51.57/share-$24.44/share = $27.13/share of capital gains tax? Even the simple dollar cost averaging method (that Vanguard will apply if you don't tell them specific shares) would be terrible as the average cost basis is well over the $24.44/share cost basis that you could use with your own tracking.

Multiply this by several stocks and several donations and the pennies you might get by investing dividends a little bit earlier automatically instead of manually isn't worth the hassle.
 
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woodman1999

Golden Member
Sep 19, 2003
1,712
115
106
So where ever possible, I elect to reinvest dividends. At what point does an investment become too large of a percentage of your total portfolio?

I'd say that point is reached when you become uncomfortable with the daily attribution on your overall portfolio or you have a set allocation in mind that is becoming stretched. If someone wants to have something at 70% of their portfolio, they either have strong opinions of it or a love affair. For others, to much may be at 10%....
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
1,077
126
A
Now, suppose you want to donate $200 to the Red Cross. You could donate $200 of Nike Stock to do so. At today's $68.03 closing price, that would be 2.94 shares. But which 2.94 shares? Your brokerage didn't have to keep track of the cost basis as much of this stock was purchased before year 2014.

Well if you are donating, it would be the oldest shares assuming you didn't sell any others....because it is always first in, first out if it is in the same account - unless there is some special loophole for donations.
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,687
565
136
I really mucked things up the past two days. I need to stay out of this mess for a little bit.

The only good news I've gotten is also bittersweet. After years of fighting my siblings have finally agreed that my parents estate needs to be sold. The proceeds for each of us should be between $200,000 and $250,000. I'm not looking forward to selling it one bit; the last of my childhood will be officially gone. But it's been sitting empty for years now, and that can't continue. I'm meeting one of my siblings there next week to start emptying the main house. I'm dreading it beyond belief. Tears will be shed.

Eventually I need to decide what to do with the money. I probably should just plow it into my funds portfolio but I might park it on the sidelines in case the big Kahuna correction hits and go shopping.

My dumb heart wants to buy a condo on a golf course somewhere nice but not to expensive. I know that's not smart. There is no way I'd use it enough to make that a worthwhile purchase.
 

Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
10,650
3,609
136
There are companies you can hire that just do estate sales. They'll go through the house for you and either tag everything with a price sticker or put some of the stuff up for auction. There will still be pain most likely since you'd probably still have to tell them what's off limits and you'd probably still need to deal with some of the personal stuff that isn't marketable. But it should make things orders of magnitude easier.
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,687
565
136
True, but I think I need to say goodbye to everything personally. I'm sure we'll have an estate sale eventually.

My dad's booze is still in the liquor cabinet.
 

DietDrThunder

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2001
2,262
326
126
Ups a daisy........downs a daisy....market going back into a pullback.
Boy isn't that true. One instant I'd be up $10K+, the next I would be down -$3K+, then up again $8K+, and finally finished down -$5k+. At least I finished February up instead of down.
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,687
565
136
Futures went positive? What's this now?

I was preparing for a long day of watching my net worth tank.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,189
4,855
126
I'm not looking forward to selling it one bit; the last of my childhood will be officially gone.
No, it won't be gone at all. Your childhood is your memories, not the objects. Your memories will be there with you for as long as you continue to talk about them. That is something fully under your control. The objects are nothing.
 
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dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,687
565
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You're probably right. I tend to be a very nostalgic, melancholy person.

I'm sure it will be a cleansing of sorts. Just the thought of going through all of my parents clothes and personal items is painful right now.
 

AznAnarchy99

Lifer
Dec 6, 2004
14,695
117
106
Boy isn't that true. One instant I'd be up $10K+, the next I would be down -$3K+, then up again $8K+, and finally finished down -$5k+. At least I finished February up instead of down.

I need to stop monitoring it daily. Drives me crazy with what ifs.
 

AznAnarchy99

Lifer
Dec 6, 2004
14,695
117
106
Can anyone explain the Chinese stocks and why they're split into two listings? One usually ending in "Y" (ADR) and the other ending in "F"?
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,687
565
136
My current holdings actually haven't been affected much but I need huge rally tomorrow.

I sold puts on APA at 35.5 and INCY at 82.5 when both seemed reasonably safe. I might be maxed out again at close like I was with Micron a while back.

That turned out ok though.
 

FelixDeCat

Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
31,234
2,779
126
My current holdings actually haven't been affected much but I need huge rally tomorrow.

I sold puts on APA at 35.5 and INCY at 82.5 when both seemed reasonably safe. I might be maxed out again at close like I was with Micron a while back.

That turned out ok though.

Better cover those short puts...dood. Markets going to lay an egg IMO.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,982
31,539
146
I love the smell of a trade war in the morning.

Wall Street, though? Apparently not...
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
I love the smell of a trade war in the morning.

Wall Street, though? Apparently not...

Just saw that. Down more than 550 points since announcing. Maybe a big retest of the 23,500 about a month ago? Maybe worse?

Time will tell....
 
Jan 25, 2011
17,158
9,679
146
Depends on who you get your news from...

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