***Official*** 2012 Stock Market Thread

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Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
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No point in arguing with someone who "spent about 3 hours on RIMM today" and believes they have 40% worldwide market share:D. How can anyone say that without alarm bells going off in their head?

1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let Apple learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not Apple to teach, nor to usurp authority over RIM, but to be in silence. For RIM was first formed, then Apple. And Apple was not deceived, but the RIM being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding Apple shall be saved in gadgets.

Then Apple shrugged, and all was lost.
 

KB

Diamond Member
Nov 8, 1999
5,406
389
126
Is this the beginning of the correction? If Greece doesn't get the bailout it will default on March 20th. I can't believe private creditors will accept a 50% haircut on the greek debt, paid with new bonds at only < 4% interest. Many of them would rather get the CDS insurance than take such a cut.
I am not sure the jobs numbers will be good enough next week. I am down to 20% stock / 80% cash.
 
Sep 29, 2004
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Read more on RIMM, HTML 5 and a handful of other things. Not buying RIMM. Or any other smartphone maker for that matter. There is no way to tell what things are going to look like in 1-5 yeras time.

I expect there to be an HTML 5 store front for apps available at some point. Quite frankly, there are already startups in existence that are trying to provide this. If those take hold, what brand smart phone you have will no longer matter. The winner will be the lowest cost provider granted things like CPU power and memory will be an issue.

If these web based HTML 5 app stores do not work out, then nothing will change.

There is no certainty in where things will be in 1-5 years.

If RIMM continues it's fall though, I will consider buying some.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
4
76
Is this the beginning of the correction? If Greece doesn't get the bailout it will default on March 20th. I can't believe private creditors will accept a 50% haircut on the greek debt, paid with new bonds at only < 4% interest. Many of them would rather get the CDS insurance than take such a cut.
I am not sure the jobs numbers will be good enough next week. I am down to 20% stock / 80% cash.

It's bigger than 50%. 50% is just the face. NPV is much bigger

Assuming I bought them at par and I wanted a return of 5.250%, based on the primary issuance.

i.e. I have EUR1B of 02/01/2016 Greek paper @ 5.250%.

I now have Eur500MM 01/01/2032-2042 paper @ 3.500% with an escalator if things get better.

The actual NPV adjustment is around 70% with some arguing as high as 80%.

Calculations below assume assets are carried at historical cost and are listed as held to maturity securities.

The NPV of a 2032 3.5% bond based on my 5.250% interest need is Eur-615.73MM meaning I have to write down my Eur1B investment to Eur384.27
The NPV of a 2042 3.5% bond based on my 5.250% interest need is Eur-636.13MM.

If you use the 5.8 07/14/2015 or the 5.959 03/04/2019 the NPV adjustments get even worse causing the 70% or 80% writedown scenarios.

This is simplified but fairly close to how the actual negotiations are going.

Held to maturity in IFRS is one of the dumbest ideas ever. The vast likelihood is that 30 years or however long the holding period is, is too long for the vast majority of investments.
 
Sep 29, 2004
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No point in arguing with someone who "spent about 3 hours on RIMM today" and believes they have 40% worldwide market share:D. How can anyone say that without alarm bells going off in their head?

No, it's called data.

PM made some long post. The power of a forum search engine, taking things out of context and only reading what they want to read in action. Atleast he admits that he just cherry picked comments. Atleast he cherry picked the one where I admit that I don't understand tech. God, that's investing 101. It's more important to know what you don't know than what you know.

I did not make or loose money in Apple. Whoopiee. I don't care. People can take my input and appreciate it or ignore it. It's better than being a fanboy.
 
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PimpJuice

Platinum Member
Feb 14, 2005
2,051
1
76
You have no clue what HTML 5 is. You have no clue of what the competition is up to. You have no clue about many things being done by none Apple anything. You have no clue.

Do you even know anything about HTML 5? If one hour alone trying to educate yourself on HTML 5 is too much effort, you might as well look into index funds.

Considering that I've been a applications developer for the past 14 years, I can say I know a bit about HTML 5. Is this the same HTML 5 that you just learned about yesterday in an hour or two? Obviously you didn't do enough research to realize that AAPL is one of the companies that is pushing HTML 5.

Here are some links:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20006810-37.html
http://mashable.com/2011/11/11/flash-mobile-dead-adobe/
http://gigaom.com/apple/why-html5-wont-take-the-wind-out-of-apples-sails/
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/knocking_down_apples_walled_garden_html5_vs_ios_apps.php

Who's the moron again? Thanks again for proving what an idiot you are.

Edit: Pliable already showed everyone your hypocrisy....but I'll leave this here as well.
 
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IHAVEAQUESTION

Golden Member
Nov 30, 2005
1,061
3
81
My foreign index ETF is trading more like the trend of US stock market.

Underlying index up 2% today.

ETF down 1% so far.
 

cheezy321

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2003
6,218
2
0
No, it's called data.

PM made some long post. The power of a forum search engine, taking things out of context and only reading what they want to read in action. Atleast he admits that he just cherry picked comments. Atleast he cherry picked the one where I admit that I don't understand tech. God, that's investing 101. It's more important to know what you don't know than what you know.

I did not make or loose money in Apple. Whoopiee. I don't care. People can take my input and appreciate it or ignore it. It's better than being a fanboy.

Being a hater is in no way, shape or form better than being a fanboy.

Haters gonna hate
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
No, it's called data.

PM made some long post. The power of a forum search engine, taking things out of context and only reading what they want to read in action. Atleast he admits that he just cherry picked comments. Atleast he cherry picked the one where I admit that I don't understand tech. God, that's investing 101. It's more important to know what you don't know than what you know.

I did not make or loose money in Apple. Whoopiee. I don't care. People can take my input and appreciate it or ignore it. It's better th being a fanboy.

I quoted entire paragraphs, and linked, how can they possibly be out of context?

Smartphones make up about 10% of the world's phones, there's massive growth to be had.

You're also way out of line calling me a fanboy, The only thing I'm a fan of is money
 
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goog40

Diamond Member
Mar 16, 2000
4,198
1
0
No, it's called data.

PM made some long post. The power of a forum search engine, taking things out of context and only reading what they want to read in action. Atleast he admits that he just cherry picked comments. Atleast he cherry picked the one where I admit that I don't understand tech. God, that's investing 101. It's more important to know what you don't know than what you know.

I did not make or loose money in Apple. Whoopiee. I don't care. People can take my input and appreciate it or ignore it. It's better than being a fanboy.

Show me any recent data that says RIM has anywhere near 40% worldwide market share. It doesn't exist.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
Show me any recent data that says RIM has anywhere near 40% worldwide market share. It doesn't exist.

Even if it does... Remember that Nokia also has/had quite a large global marketshare now or up until relatively recently.
 
Sep 29, 2004
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Show me any recent data that says RIM has anywhere near 40% worldwide market share. It doesn't exist.

I have to revisit my statement. I might have been looking at stale data.

What would it take for people to learn about RIMM? Support for iOS or Droid based apps?
 
Sep 29, 2004
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I quoted entire paragraphs, and linked, how can they possibly be out of context?

Smartphones make up about 10% of the world's phones, there's massive growth to be had.

You're also way out of line calling me a fanboy, The only thing I'm a fan of is money

The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.[1]

Arguments based on this fallacy typically take two forms. As a straw man argument, which is frequently found in politics, it involves quoting an opponent out of context in order to misrepresent their position (typically to make it seem more simplistic or extreme) in order to make it easier to refute.

YOU SEE YOU FANBOY ..... I said $220 was a fair value for Apple on 10-26-2009. The month of October saw Apple trade in a range of $185-$205. YOU TAKE SHIT OUT OF CONTEXT. IT'S AS PLAIN AS DAY! I'm sure it was accident that you didn't tell everyone the date I posted that.

I'd waste my life cherry picking quotes like you but I like money to much to waste any more time on this. I'd rather learn something useful.
 
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JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as "contextomy" or "quote mining", is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.[1]

Arguments based on this fallacy typically take two forms. As a straw man argument, which is frequently found in politics, it involves quoting an opponent out of context in order to misrepresent their position (typically to make it seem more simplistic or extreme) in order to make it easier to refute.

YOU SEE YOU FANBOY ..... I said $220 was a fair value for Apple on 10-26-2009. The month of October saw Apple trade in a range of $185-$205. YOU TAKE SHIT OUT OF CONTEXT. IT'S AS PLAIN AS DAY! I'm sure it was accident that you didn't tell everyone the date I posted that.

I'd waste my life cherry picking quotes like you but I like money to much to waste any more time on this. I'd rather learn something useful.

obamam-lol-y-u-mad-tho.jpg
 
Sep 29, 2004
18,656
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Considering that I've been a applications developer for the past 14 years, I can say I know a bit about HTML 5. Is this the same HTML 5 that you just learned about yesterday in an hour or two? Obviously you didn't do enough research to realize that AAPL is one of the companies that is pushing HTML 5.

Here are some links:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-20006810-37.html
http://mashable.com/2011/11/11/flash-mobile-dead-adobe/
http://gigaom.com/apple/why-html5-wont-take-the-wind-out-of-apples-sails/
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/knocking_down_apples_walled_garden_html5_vs_ios_apps.php

Who's the moron again? Thanks again for proving what an idiot you are.

Edit: Pliable already showed everyone your hypocrisy....but I'll leave this here as well.

<== 11+ years as a softwre engineer. Embedded systems. Now I do IT work. Relax, I do silly things like porting one CAD system to another one. Only in the past year have I started to tinker with web development.

But I have to ask, what is your point? Investment does not require one to know HTML inside and out. A top level overview is all that is needed. Has all your knowledge of HTML 5 told you anything about the new companies that are springing up to try to create an HTML 5 app sales front? 14 years doing tech should have tought you the next 5 years has nothing to do with the past 5 years. But you seem to be ignorant of that simple truth. And you want to be ignorant of it. That's fine. It's just not me.
 

mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
7,868
0
71
(IHMJ2004): I haven't been following what appears to be your multi-year spat with others over AAPL et al, but it seems to me that you might be trying to pidgeon hole every company / stock as good / bad fundamentally right / wrong through the very narrow prism of only Warren Buffet's wide economic moat style of investing (projecting / educated guess-timating a company's ability to compound earnings at high rate over very extended periods of time into future). You refer to Prem Watscha as the Canadian Warren Buffett and how he is investing in RIMM, but didn't Warren Buffet (even during those lofty pre- dot-com bubble bursting times) say that he doesn't invest in technology companies because he doesn't understand them (I would assume it is not that he can't digest their financial statements or fundamentals, but more that truly unforeseeable seismic shifts and bouts of creative destruction are inherent to the technology sector, much more so than those wide moat type of boring staid industries where he built his tremendous long-term compound interest rates of returns? I haven't read a book about Warren Buffet's investing style in 10 years and probably forget everything I read in that book anyways (The Warren Buffet Way, I think), but if Warren Buffet had to chose between Coca-Cola stock at the depths of the 1973 bear market (this is unresearched analogy off top of my head and may be totally factually incorrect), and Apple at the absolute nadir of the stock market post Lehman crash in 2008, WITH the stipulation that you can't sell for at least 20 or 30 years into future, which do you think he might choose? He presumably doesn't have a Delorean where he can jump to the future, get WSJ from 20 or 30 years into the future, come back, and bet the ranch on that info, so he ultimately has to make an educated guess, and pay heed to unknown unknowns with appropriate overall portfolio diversification. Also, I offer this fig leaf of a Wall Street analyst who is also bearish on AAPL / bullish on RIMM (http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000070235) that this is not meant to be a personal attack, but observation from someone who doesn't trade or invest in individual stocks (diversified portfolio of mutual funds with a time horizon measured in decades, not years). Is Apple's wide economic moat (the Apple ecosystem) ultimately dependent upon Tim Cook's ability to glean or create what the masses (will think) they want or must have in future and maintain the Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field, so to speak. You could ultimately end up being right, but investors with a different investing strategy than your multi-decade Buffet type time horizon could possibly get awfully rich while you wait to get to be proven right (e. g. post-Jobs Apple ends up ultimately being another obsolete company that wasn't able to recognize and adapt to slow but seismic changes in their respective industries (e. g. Kodak or Xerox?)





Some other random video clips I have stumbled across for others to develop their own global macro view to help drive their own trading and investing strategies:

Portugal: no specific video clips, but two talking head comments 1) Amelia Bordreau on Fast Money tonight said that Portugal has bailout funds through end of year, so though there may be angst, risk of immediate hard default may not be there as there is in Greece in March. CNBC commentator Sri out of Singapore said there is additional $9 billion of Portugal debt that comes due in September. BBC News article graph I saw long ago said that Spain lent a lot to Portugal, so in some essence their fates are tied to some extent, but probably not to the extent of Italy and France (John Mauldin's recent article over at Seeking Alpha said that French banks hold 45% of Italian debt. Perhaps sheds some light on CNBC's David Faber and Cramer's comments last year, pre- coordinated global central bank 1% dollar swap lifelines, that perhap the likes of BNP Paribas, Credit Agricole, or Societe Generale might have been feared to be on the ropes back then?

Greece: impression I get from talking heads on tv that default / no default credit event / no credit event perhaps even Greece leaving / someone leaving Euro currency but not common market (there is apparently no mechanism in Maastricht Treaty to leave EU Project voluntarily or be forced out) is already priced in, but ramifications for general bond market of forcing bond holders of a given class to take losses while not imposing similar losses to other bond holders in similar position on risk pyramid of debt structure (coarse layman's take based upon scanning through Zerohedge article on bond subordination 101 article http://www.zerohedge.com/news/subor...vereign-bond-markets-post-greek-default-world and really not understanding what I am reading). And also comments I think from Michelle Cabrusso-Cabrerra on CNBC last week about possibility of partial CDS payout (she was making point about bondholders saying that ECB getting Greek bonds at a discount, and if they don't default and hold to maturity, they will actually make a profit, while imposing arguably heavy-handed losses on PSI. But ECB closing gap in bailout funds might not optically go over too well with voting masses (another bailout), and I guess depending upon who wrote CDS and who currently holds those CDS which actually pay out, would it be a way for ECB to take some losses (lost profits in future) so optics are not of another bailout?


China and the taming of cyclical vs. secular inflation: http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000069706


Where is the Rocket Fuel for a new cyclical bull going to come from?:
- Karen Finerman comment on CNBC Fast Money a week or two ago about looking at cash levels of value funds or something like that
- Bob Doll of Blackrock and The Complacent Pause (http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000068952) comparing these comments to those previous appearances I have stumbled across since last fall, he sounds short-term tactical less bullish (decreased beta, slightly more defensive by adding more health care), but slightly more bullish long-term (2.5% real gdp growth vs. previous 2% gdp growth projections, new mention on CNBC of commodities / energy (does this mean he thinks Bernanke is going to destroy dollar and that there might possibly be some global growth going forward?)
- perhaps we are now in a temporary zero sum game where broad averages can not advance significantly because those willing to play in equities have to sell something to buy something else. We need that money that should naturally be in equities, but is so scarred post-Lehman that it is still hiding out in bonds or cash to be forced into stocks (Ben Bernanke and financial repression) or for some as of yet unforseen catalyst to push up broad indices sufficiently that greed overcomes fear and the hot dumb money naturally in equities returns there
- technicals: http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000070255 and previous resistance now becoming support? (http://www.tradingmarkets.com/stocks/commentary/1250-1280-s-p-may-be-a-wall-1578825.html) guess implied is that definitive break below 1250 might not be good (are we back in 1100 - 1250 trading range of end of last year, and is there increasing tail risk of financial accident or real Eurozone breakup putting those downside technical targets of say 950 - 1000 coarsely speaking back into play, if we were to convincing break back down through 1100?)
- Cramer's pretty good take on where we may stand in markets right now: http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000070152


European Key-Stone Cops?
- Simon Hobbs made this quick observation late in day on CNBC that a fiscal compact had been agreed to by 25 of 27 EU members (edit: Britain and Czech Republic objected - http://londonbanker.blogspot.com/2011/10/anomie-watch-efsf-and-bailout.html ) and that permanent ESM mechanism had also been formally agreed to. Devil is obviously in details, but last year wasn't best case scenario hope for stop-gap bilateral fiscal compact type agreements between individual countries. Did LTRO buy them enough time to actually put real treaty changes on table, and who are holdouts (is it Britain because of financial transaction tax on London financial district and some other country, or is it Greece and Portgual because they are going to be slowly booted out of Euro?). London Banker blog had previous comment about how much of an afterthought temporary EFSF (mighty firewall? :rolleyes:) was at conception (apparently it is just an office in Brussels, Belgium with about 20 office staff), vs. permanent ESM mechanism where I read somewhere there is capacity in future to raise it's ultimate bailout capabilities in future if political will (Germany?) is ultimately there.
- seems like markets last year were just hoping Merkel et. al. would just capitulate and let ECB print massive amounts of money (quantitative easing) and let everyone default in gentleman's way (inflation and currency devaluation), while Merkel may actually trying to seize crisis as an opportunity to ultimately deal with problem in an ultimately constructive manner. (I have read comments while web surfing that Germans are savers and renters, not home owners, don't know if they have a current account surplus because of exports, and they don't seem to have their currency markets cornered like Japan's central bank, but does seem like they could try and ride out storm like Japan (5 years of harsh austerity in Germany's case) and emerge stronger against Asian competitors years down the road (http://www.testosteronepit.com/home/2011/9/21/how-long-can-japan-play-the-endgame.html and http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2008/07/deflation-and-bank-bailouts-in-japan.html )



(how's that for random, stream of consciousness thought!) :)
 
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Sep 29, 2004
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PM,

Your image, while humorous, makes no sense. Trying to become the context king or what?

apple,funny,ipod,music-362c16a90669b81e774e1e645c38a0eb_m.jpg


apple_fanboy.jpg


fanboy-anatomy.jpg

PS: Read something that needs more investigation but I think I might buy some RIMM. No reason to discuss reasoning anymore. Too many fanboys here.
 
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Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56

chusteczka

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2006
3,399
3
71
May I ask a question regarding RIMM's acquisition of QNX?
How will a smart phone benefit from a real-time operating system?

I have liked QNX but I do not understand its use in a phone.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
May I ask a question regarding RIMM's acquisition of QNX?
How will a smart phone benefit from a real-time operating system?

I have liked QNX but I do not understand its use in a phone.

It's an operating system, works just like Android or iOS, it's been around for a long time, RIM is polishing it up to use as an OS on it's phones. I have a PlayBook with it, it's actually pretty impressive, but has some glaring omissions, no native email app, no BBM, very few apps, and poor developer support.

RIM has written off $500 million on the PlayBook and it's development thus far, and I gotta tell you, a truckload of PlayBooks disappearing it suspicious as hell to me.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/mobiled...stolen-by-truckload-rim-suffers-another-blow/
 

chusteczka

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2006
3,399
3
71
Thank you for that. I remember the news but did not realize the significance at the time.

I suppose the poor apps and developer support is where the web with HTML 5 may prove an advantage. Now I am understanding more of the situation and of this conversation you guys are having.

  1. Does the fact that QNX is a RTOS provide any advantages on a smart phone or a tablet?
  2. Or is it merely a different and unique operating system for marketing purposes?
  3. Why would they purchase QNX when they could create their own linux distro?

I do not see or understand a need for a RTOS on a smart phone or tablet but then I do not use or own either of them.
 
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