OCZ falsely advertising 25nm Vertex 2 drives?

[tomoyo]

OCZ seems to always do something that isn't on the up and up. I've seen this trend from them for basically their entire existence. While they do make some good products, they seem to love to hurt their reputation often. At least they aren't Ultra, but that isn't saying much. At least their warranties are generally pretty good. But I'd rather see OCZ become more like Intel or Corsair or a number of other companies that generally have strong business practices. It would increase my comfort level with recommending their stuff at least.

 

[semo]

I've updated my first post with a chronological order of Anand's responses on the issue (if you find more, let me know and I'll add them in). As far as I can tell the bait-and-switch game is still on from OCZ as I'm not aware of any branding changes on the Vertex 2 25nm edition SSDs. This means that people who know about the Vertex 2's original reputation, could inadvertently purchase a different product based on previous expectations.

 

[Rifter]

I was one of the people who received one of the 25nm "bait and switch" drives, I returned it to Newegg once OCZ started the "Pay up" program and will never consider one of their products again because of the way they initially handled things.

Me either, this is complete BS. I actually sold off all OCZ products i owned as soon as this happened and will never buy or recommend OCZ again, ever, to anyone.

Also Anand thinking this is solved and not running a story on this just shows how deep in bed with OCZ he is, and he will loose alot of credibility for it as already mentioned by elixer

Guess he doesn't want to burn bridges with OCZ, which knocks down his reputation.

 

[Concillian]

It is only old news for people that look at the forums, everyone else has no clue.

People who look at the forums... or OCZ's support site
or storagereview.com
or toms hardware
or even pcmag.com and any number of other sources.

Basically only people who are living in the bliss of ignorance don't know about this yet. Don't shatter their world... lol.

OCZ has not really been anything great since they (quite literally) sold out. When it was a guy in his garage it was a pretty innovative company. When he sold the name to some suits, it went downhill fast.

 

[semo]

The only reason to care about 25nm is that it should bee cheaper than 3x nm. But it's not. 25nm Vertex 2 drives were initially a little cheaper with some rebates if you bought from specific e-tailers, but not really anymore.

Performance is no better with 25nm. There's no story with 25nm, because there's no benefit to the end user. ...
....

You can say the same thing about the transition from 130nm Pentium 4s to 90nm (Prescott core). They were rarely faster than the Northwood cores at a given core freq. and were much hotter. Absolutely no benefit to the end-user but the Prescotts saw as much coverage on the net, magazines and forums as any other new tech.

What about the DDR to DDR2 transition? At least in those cases, the manufacturers didn't attempt to deceive the end-user by not changing the branding or not supplying tech sites with review samples, press releases and other marketing.

 

[Concillian]

You can say the same thing about the transition from 130nm Pentium 4s to 90nm (Prescott core). They were rarely faster than the Northwood cores at a given core freq. and were much hotter. Absolutely no benefit to the end-user but the Prescotts saw as much coverage on the net, magazines and forums as any other new tech.

What about the DDR to DDR2 transition? At least in those cases, the manufacturers didn't attempt to deceive the end-user by not changing the branding or not supplying tech sites with review samples, press releases and other marketing.

Can you physically fit the new product into the socket of the old in those examples? I don't think so. At the very least, the 90nm would need a BIOS update for a mobo to make different VRM options available for the voltage difference. You can't hide a product transition that is not 100% compatible. 34nm / 25nm SSDs are both boxes you plug into SATA ports. Not the same.

I don't disagree that shipping a different product with the same name is deceptive, it absolutely is. I just think putting it on the front page of AT now would give him as much negative publicity as he's getting by NOT putting a story up. It'd be like if the CBS national news broadcast tonight started with 10 minutes of stories on last month's Cairo unrest. It would be a story that they actually did that now.

Is OCZ really still selling drives that are half-channel? If that's the case then I suppose that's news. They'd also be even dumber than I thought if they are still pushing half-channel drives into distribution channels, but I was under the impression that they switched to the smaller 25nm chips to fill all the channels.

 

[taltamir]

Can you physically fit the new product into the socket of the old in those examples? I don't think so. At the very least, the 90nm would need a BIOS update for a mobo to make different VRM options available for the voltage difference. You can't hide a product transition that is not 100% compatible. 34nm / 25nm SSDs are both boxes you plug into SATA ports. Not the same.

First of, the problems have nothing to do with 25nm. the replacement drives they are now giving out that don't drop in performance or size are ALSO 25nm.
Second, if you were to plug it in to a raid device it will fail because the size is smaller then expected.

 

[Elixer]

From reading what OCZ has in their forums, they will ONLY replace drives that are 60 or 120 GB, and the way to tell is take the size of SSD, * .93, and if your SSD is less than the formatted size, then they will replace it.

I got a OCZ Vertex 2 90GB unit today, and the die size their utility shows is 32Gb, it does pass that little test they did.
I am still unsure if this is the gimped version or not...since all they talk about is "in the context of the 60's and 120's only: E drives = 64Gb, Non E drives = 32Gb"
Thate leaves the otehr SSDs that are not 60 or 120 still wondering what the deal is.

Doing some quick tests now.

 

[semo]

Concillian, we're going off on a tangent now. Yes not the same, I'll give you that. The 25nm Vertex 2 drives are not the same as the older versions. They are completely different products despite the labelling. When OCZ, introduced the 25nm drives they should not have claimed that they are 60GB. They should have also made it obvious that they don’t perform the same as the older V2Es

Not the most immidietely obvious bati-and-switch game, but it is one nontheless! They tried to bamboozle the end-user by saying things like Sandforce, RAISE, channels, nanometers, provisioning and blah... still bait-and-switch at the core despite the irrelevant technical reasoning.

 

[Concillian]

not the most immidietely obvious bait-and-switch game, but it is one nontheless! They tried to bamboozle the end-user by saying things like sandforce, raise, channels, nanometers, provisioning and blah... Still bait-and-switch at the core despite the irrelevant technical reasoning.

quoting myself:

I don't disagree that shipping a different product with the same name is deceptive, it absolutely is.

We agree. Do you really need to argue the point further?

 

[semo]

Yes, we agree on that.

We were arguing whether OCZ 25nm drives deserve proper in depth technical coverage.

There's no story with 25nm, because there's no benefit to the end user

I couldn't agree more that the end-user does not benefit. However, putting OCZ's shady marketing to one side for a moment, a technological breakthrough such as a node shrink deserves a lot more media attention, I believe. This is why I was drawing parallels with Prescotts (they weren't great but there was a lot written about them).

 

[aigomorla]

did we even get a formal appology at least from OCZ?

 

[Hacp]

I have to say, that I did not realize that OCZ was doing this until very recently and recommended the drive to others. I check the front page regularly and this is one of those stories that I would have expected Anand to be completely on top of. He is kind of the go-to guy when it comes to SSDs.

I don't want to go all conspiracy theory, but I feel there has to be a reason why there wasn't a post about it other than just that he forgot.

Its not a conspiracy theory. Anand just took his time to asses the situation and when OCZ caved, Anand saw no reason to burn bridges. You need to realize that Anand is running a business here and he doesn't want add fuel to an issue that has resolved itself already.

 

[Hacp]

You can say the same thing about the transition from 130nm Pentium 4s to 90nm (Prescott core). They were rarely faster than the Northwood cores at a given core freq. and were much hotter. Absolutely no benefit to the end-user but the Prescotts saw as much coverage on the net, magazines and forums as any other new tech.

What about the DDR to DDR2 transition? At least in those cases, the manufacturers didn't attempt to deceive the end-user by not changing the branding or not supplying tech sites with review samples, press releases and other marketing.

Except you could overclock them higher.

 

[semo]

Its not a conspiracy theory. Anand just took his time to asses the situation and when OCZ caved, Anand saw no reason to burn bridges. You need to realize that Anand is running a business here and he doesn't want add fuel to an issue that has resolved itself already.

OCZ caved? They did not recall any of the bait-and-switch Vertex 2 drives. OCZ will only react if you complain to them.

There are reports of people still receiving the incorrectly labelled and marketed drives.
forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2147671
This was posted only 2 weeks ago.

 

[KK]

OCZ caved? They did not recall any of the bait-and-switch Vertex 2 drives. OCZ will only react if you complain to them.

There are reports of people still receiving the incorrectly labelled and marketed drives.
forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2147671
This was posted only 2 weeks ago.

I am in the process of RMA'ing the drive I bought on the 8th. Seems like a pretty easy swap out, they will be sending a return label. One thing I noticed is that the drive they will be swapping it out for will be the oczssd2-2vtx120g. The one I bought was the "e" model. whats the difference?

 

[semo]

I am in the process of RMA'ing the drive I bought on the 8th. Seems like a pretty easy swap out, they will be sending a return label. One thing I noticed is that the drive they will be swapping it out for will be the oczssd2-2vtx120g. The one I bought was the "e" model. whats the difference?

Did OCZ or the retailer contact you and tell you that you may have been sold an incorrectly labelled product or did you find out through your own research and contact OCZ yourself?

Vertex E drives were the cheaper "extended" versions. It means that there is less reserved capacity for load balancing and bad sector swap outs. I'm not sure too sure what the TX version is. Possibly it uses 25nm 64Gb chips. I'm sure someone else here knows more about it 😉

 

[taltamir]

I am in the process of RMA'ing the drive I bought on the 8th. Seems like a pretty easy swap out, they will be sending a return label. One thing I noticed is that the drive they will be swapping it out for will be the oczssd2-2vtx120g. The one I bought was the "e" model. whats the difference?

At some point they started being more honest about what the drive contains and started labeling the "bad" (slower and smaller) drives with an E

 

[KK]

Did OCZ or the retailer contact you and tell you that you may have been sold an incorrectly labelled product or did you find out through your own research and contact OCZ yourself?

Vertex E drives were the cheaper "extended" versions. It means that there is less reserved capacity for load balancing and bad sector swap outs. I'm not sure too sure what the TX version is. Possibly it uses 25nm 64Gb chips. I'm sure someone else here knows more about it 😉

I knew going into it that I may receive one of the 64Gb models, I figure if i did, they'd rma it, if i didn't, then no problem. So once I got it, slapped it in the laptop and loaded it up, formatted to 107gb so I figured it was affected. downloaded their toolbox and that confirmed it. submitted a ticket late friday, had a responce when I got home from work yesterday asking for address, date of purchase, and serial number. sent that info, and today they emailed back saying they were going to get me a return label.

I thought the vtx, was just an abbreviation of vertex.

 

[semo]

I knew going into it that I may receive one of the 64Gb models, I figure if i did, they'd rma it, if i didn't, then no problem. So once I got it, slapped it in the laptop and loaded it up, formatted to 107gb so I figured it was affected. downloaded their toolbox and that confirmed it. submitted a ticket late friday, had a responce when I got home from work yesterday asking for address, date of purchase, and serial number. sent that info, and today they emailed back saying they were going to get me a return label.

I thought the vtx, was just an abbreviation of vertex.

This is the problem I'm talking about. You knew about the issue so you made the checks and got a replacement organized. OCZ or your retailer should have contacted you and told you that the drive you have is not what you think it is (i.e. what's written on the label and spec sheet).

Even the smallest companies do some form of testing and validation before sending products off to store shelves. A drive that comes up a few GB short would have been picked up in the very first stages of testing (I would imagine that their engineers would have known the resulting capacity before they even built the first test drive). I'm 100% sure that OCZ knew what they were selling and they obviously chose not to update the label and spec sheet.

There could be thousands of people using inferior drives that might not know about it and OCZ isn't planning on telling them.

As soon as I found out what OCZ were doing (when this thread started), I stopped buying their products as I see no legitimate reason to do so. I just got a Corsair Force 60 and it is just as good as the V2s. I'm sure most 50K IOPS SF drives are just as good as the V2s, so why support a slimy company like OCZ?

 

[semo]

March, 31, 2011. http://www.anandtech.com/show/4253/the-crucial-m4-micron-c400-ssd-review

And for those of you asking about my thoughts on the recent OCZ related stuff that has been making the rounds, expect to see all of that addressed in our review of the final Vertex 3

Good news I think.

One thing that bothered me was the fact that he admits having the Corsair P3 for weeks, yet we only see OCZ's SF drives previewed and the rest have to wait for a full write up. However, I may be too cynical as OCZ could have shipped their preview unit earlier than Corsair (which would explain the lack of drive housing).

 

[groberts101]

consumer advocacy is one thing... but flaming, ranting, and raving only serve to paint the true picture where some peoples minds tend to gravitate. Many bad facts here.

Some good ones of course.. but far too many bad ones to add credibility to the majority of posts here.

Some basic facts for all the flamers to consider:

1. no one was ever charged for RMA exchange as OCZ quickly changed the original policy before the first RMA was ever sent since we all know OCZ has the tendency to change things, right? lol

2. 25nm drives using 32Gbit nand has eliminated "most" of the lost performance issue due to filling all available channels. Newest firmware is also a tad faster to bridge the gap between original models.

3. OCZ SSD's are consistently aimed at enthusiast types,.. therefore are usually topping the charts in most reviews across the board through more aggressive firmware development.

4. now maybe this should actually be number 1.. but all those who've been duped into slower/smaller drives don't have a clue simply because it's VERY tough to tell the difference without using incompressible data or benchmarks which use numbers to "tell you" they are slower. Sandforce has/will continue to be "all about the averages" from day one. The controller is the key to these drives excellent latency and overall performance. IOW, if the OS consisted primarily of incompressible data.. you might notice in everyday use. There are many who have booted to both and besides the matter of principal, they can't tell the difference AT ALL.

5. and this should be the most obvious here.. ALL review sites have a fine line to walk for the opportunity to recieve beta-releases and MUST use much tact and diplomacy to maintain this relationship with any vendor.

There you go. More fuel for the boiler. :sneaky:

 

[drizek]

Bottom line: anyone who bought a $100 vertex 2 instead of a $100 c300 got ripped off by OCZs lies.

 

[ronbo613]

consumer advocacy is one thing... but flaming, ranting, and raving only serve to paint the true picture where some peoples minds tend to gravitate. Many bad facts here.

Some good ones of course.. but far too many bad ones to add credibility to the majority of posts here.

Some basic facts for all the flamers to consider:

1. no one was ever charged for RMA exchange as OCZ quickly changed the original policy before the first RMA was ever sent since we all know OCZ has the tendency to change things, right? lol

2. 25nm drives using 32Gbit nand has eliminated "most" of the lost performance issue due to filling all available channels. Newest firmware is also a tad faster to bridge the gap between original models.

3. OCZ SSD's are consistently aimed at enthusiast types,.. therefore are usually topping the charts in most reviews across the board through more aggressive firmware development.

4. now maybe this should actually be number 1.. but all those who've been duped into slower/smaller drives don't have a clue simply because it's VERY tough to tell the difference without using incompressible data or benchmarks which use numbers to "tell you" they are slower. Sandforce has/will continue to be "all about the averages" from day one. The controller is the key to these drives excellent latency and overall performance. IOW, if the OS consisted primarily of incompressible data.. you might notice in everyday use. There are many who have booted to both and besides the matter of principal, they can't tell the difference AT ALL.

5. and this should be the most obvious here.. ALL review sites have a fine line to walk for the opportunity to recieve beta-releases and MUST use much tact and diplomacy to maintain this relationship with any vendor.

There you go. More fuel for the boiler. :sneaky:

Another important fact is that groberts101 works for OCZ. If you don't agree with him, you will be insulted. OCZ is a totally dishonest company; they tried to charge customers extra for same product they bought when returned for RMA, no doubt the term "class action lawsuit" changed their minds. If you have a 34nand drive and need to RMA it and OCZ does not want to give you one(out of stock is what they will tell you), you get a 25nand drive back, tough crap for you. Have fun with the 115G drive in your RAID of 120G drives.
The only reason OCZ keeps updating firmware is because their beta testers, commonly known as "customers", have so many ridiculous problems. Reviews of OCZ drives are bought and paid for; totally worthless. OCZ performance specs are total BS. Once a drive "settles in", the benchmarks go way down anyway. The SSD in the box may not even be the one on the box's label, what performance specs are we talking about? No telling how many OCZ drives have failed, since OCZ never tells the truth, we'll never know.
OCZ is unethical and dishonest, plenty of proof to that effect. With all the SSD drives out there from reputable companies, you are crazy to buy anything from OCZ.

groberts101, sponsored by OCZ; the floor is yours....

 

[groberts101]

it seems as though you lack enough understanding of facts or SSD tech in general to form any sort of clear or consice argument other than "I was screwed by OCZ". Good to know since we didn't quite "get it" from the first wave of you little personal smear campiagn.

and I wish I was getting paid,.. cause with as much as I've helped others with OCZ related issues.. I should be! lol

ever stop to think that maybe I post about Sandforce controlled drives simply because I've got good experience with them? apparently not. :hmm:

and trust me here.. if the floor stays full of SH*T, then I won't want any part of it due to people like you constantly screwing forums like this one with all the irrelevant flaming. So say something relavant or just go away, not just for my sake of course.. but everyone else's too. 🙂