OCZ falsely advertising 25nm Vertex 2 drives?

Discussion in 'Memory and Storage' started by semo, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. semo

    semo Senior member

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    It seems that the 25nm edition Vertex 2 drives are advertised the same as the 34nm ones that everyone knows and uses. According to this, the 25nm drives are both SLOWER and SMALLER (in storage capacity) than the original Vertex 2s while their advertised speed and storage capacity are the same as the 34nm drives.

    Can someone here verify this? Is this well known?

    Update: Anand's responses March, 04, 2011

    February, 17, 2011: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4159/ocz-vertex-3-pro-preview-the-first-sf2500-ssd?all=true
    February, 24, 2011: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4186/ocz-vertex-3-preview-the-first-client-focused-sf2200?all=true
    March, 02, 2011: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4202/the-intel-ssd-510-review?all=true
    March, 31, 2011. http://www.anandtech.com/show/4253/the-crucial-m4-micron-c400-ssd-review
    April, 07, 2011. http://www.anandtech.com/show/4256/the-ocz-vertex-3-review-120gb
    In-depth look at the problem on first 4 pages.
     
    #1 semo, Feb 15, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
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  3. Tsavo

    Tsavo Platinum Member

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    Does your mouse have a scroll button? :D
     
  4. Rifter

    Rifter Lifer

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    yes they are ripping people off, not only that they admitted they were doing it and offered to "exchange" your 25nm drive for a 34nm drive but for MORE MONEY. So they basically said yeah we screwed you but pay us some more and we will fix it.

    OCZ will never see another cent from me, ever.
     
  5. Emulex

    Emulex Diamond Member

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    yes let's tar and feather 'em

    dey took er jobs!!!
     
  6. eva2000

    eva2000 Member

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    i made same misunderstanding you did, the paid upgrade is from 25nm 64Gbit to 25nm 32Gbit for capacity reasons not performance. You still get the slower performance after paying the upgrade http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/f...OCZ-SSD-drives&p=603155&viewfull=1#post603155
     
  7. semo

    semo Senior member

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    The odd thing is that Anand Lal Shimpi isn't mentioning anything about this. He usually reports on new SSD tech or even news as soon as the NDAs allow but on this occasion he is unusually silent.

    I'm surprised nothing was even mentioned when the 25nm Vertex 2s came out and for some reason there was very little discussion about it on the forums as well. I think it's way too soon after the OCZ Core (jmicron controller) fiasco for them to play these games.
     
    #6 semo, Feb 15, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  8. BTA

    BTA Senior member

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    OCZ has always been a shady company, this does not surprise me.
     
  9. razel

    razel Platinum Member

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    1st I noticed Anand doesn't do non review SSD articles often. The last was probably the CES previews. 2nd an OCZ top executive and Anand appear to be 'close.' Not business-wise, but I remember seeing a candid shot of an OCZ top dog's office in one of the Vertex reviews. He wasn't even looking, smiling at the camera or even looking to invite the guest. It looked like a shoot-from-the-hip type photo. Kinda funny actually.

    If you're interested in another reputable view about this Vertex mess, check out storagereview. They're about to release a benchmark comparison between the two Vertex's. They have already released a few numbers in their forums and they're disappointed OCZ hasn't changed the size or updated the bench #'s.

    I think they should at least update their website. It's not hard these days to change text as opposed to graphics on an SSD. I bet it was harder for them to change the firmware. Of course, if I ran the business and it's too late to change the labels. I'd at least put a ghetto correct size sticker right over the GB. As ghetto as that sounds, at least they'll get some respect out of it.
     
    #8 razel, Feb 15, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  10. GoSharks

    GoSharks Diamond Member

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    Class action suit in the making.
     
  11. Concillian

    Concillian Diamond Member

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    I just read their 25nm overview article.

    Interesting that they mention 25nm NAND is only ~10-15% cheaperthan 34nm NAND for the same capacity. Wonder if this is after the market increases OCZ has been noting for 34nm NAND.

    NAND is not the only component in an SSD, and pieces like the PCB, cover, controllet, and assembly won't change, which means we may only see 5-8% SSD price drops at a given capacity by moving from 34nm to 25nm? Pretty disappointing.
     
  12. Voo

    Voo Golden Member

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    Just read the storagereview article and how come they don't mention anywhere if their IOmeter tests are using random patterns or zeros (which would be the default and therefore completely useless) - seems like the latter though.

    Also they don't distinguish between GB and GiB, which just causes more confusion for some people *sigh*. Buying a 60GB drive and getting 55.x GiB is just fine, because that's just what you paid for. Buying a 60GB drive and getting 51.xGiB is fraud, not more not less.
     
  13. taltamir

    taltamir Lifer

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    nand is the bulk of the cost. a controller costs 5$ according to reputable sites and the rest another 10$ at most. almost all the cost is the exhubrant price of nand, which is due to severe lack of stock not due to being more expensive to make. The market exploded overnight and there are simply not enough nand fabs in the world to meet demand. This is why the move to 25nm is important, it gives you twice the nand per die/waffer...
     
  14. frostedflakes

    frostedflakes Diamond Member

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    The StorageReview articles are very helpful. Looks like what others speculated is true, the performance drop is due to OCZ only using four of the eight possible channels on the 60GB Vertex with 25nm. The larger drives should continue to use all eight channels and have no performance drop (can anyone confirm this, are there any reports of 120GB 25nm drives with performance issues? So far it seems like only 60GB is affected). Of course anything <180GB will still have less than advertised capacity.

    I also thought it was interesting that they say 25nm is only 10-15&#37; cheaper. I wasn't expecting it to be 50% cheaper, but I figured it would have been a bit more than only 10-15%. As production is scaled up, though, prices should come down.
     
  15. flamenko

    flamenko Senior member

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    The reason for size changes will be the same with all SandForce drives. 34nm flash uses 4GB die whereas 25nm flash uses 8GB die. For the most part, 34nm is now becoming extinct.

    SF RAISE requires the use of a full die in order to function, regardless of whether it is 4GB or 8GB die. This is where you lose the additional 4plus GB to every new SandForce drive that uses RAISE. Its the small price we will pay to watch bigger capacity drives get introduces eventually at lower prices.

    Just imagine.... a new flash can carry 8 die for a total of 64GB.

    Its no different whether it is OCZ or another manufacturer. OCZ was first out of the gate and stepped on their own words in this case however...

    So there you have it. I dont know if this has been explained elsewhere except in my own article. hmmm.
     
  16. RhoXS

    RhoXS Member

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    Its easy to be a Monday morning quarterback but, nevertheless, it is hard to understand why OCZ does not now take some potentially effective steps to salvage their reputation. IMO, if they simply make a public statement sincerely apologizing for their mistake, include no lame excuses, and immediately change the labeling (even if it is just a sticky lable on the drives and boxes), it will do much more good than doing nothing and remaining silent. The silence is just breeding animosity and distrust. However, I will be surprised if this happens because I do not think it is in OCZ's corporate culture to think or act this way.

    Aside from my own experience with a failed popwer supply, only days past the end of the warranty, and an opinion formed from various threads here and there, I perceive OCZ has an arrogant culture that does not really subscribe to doing anything more for their customers than aboslutely necessary. They lost my business last year because of poor customer service when I called them about a failed power supply, just days past the expiration of the warranty based on the sales receipt. Their actions were fully in accordance with their warranty but they just did not capitalize on an oppurtunity to make a small reasonable concession that would have cemented me as a customer. Adding insult to injury, they also told me the warranty starts on the day on manufacture, not the day of sale.

    In other words, where there is smoke, there is fire. As a result, at least for me, OCZ products went from something I did not hesitate to buy last spring to a business I would not consider now. The power supply incident was my break point but their handling of their 25 nm SSDs just solidly reaffirmed my OCZ no buy decision.
     
    #15 RhoXS, Feb 16, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  17. watzup_ken

    watzup_ken Member

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  18. jwilliams4200

    jwilliams4200 Senior member

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    That is not a fundamental cause, just a botched transition by OCZ and/or bad Sandforce controller design (I cannot tell which).

    As you can easily see from the pictures in the storagereview article, there are still 8 flash packages in the 64GiB SSD. With a properly designed controller and circuit board, they could obviously still use 8 channels, one per flash package. But for whatever reason (trying to save money by keeping old double-sided circuit board? controller limitation?), the new 25nm OCZ Vertex 2 SSDs are half the speed of the 3xnm ones.

    Also, consider that the 64GB Micron C400 has sequential speeds already quoted on Micron's web site, and they are faster than the 64GB C300. If it were not possible to make 64GB SSDs with 25nm flash with the same number of channels as with 34nm flash, then how has Micron done it? You could claim that Micron is fudging the numbers, but you'd have a hard case to make.
     
  19. GundamF91

    GundamF91 Golden Member

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    I predict this will cost OCZ dearly when people think about buying other SF driven SSD. There are plenty of fish in the sea in this SSD market, OCZ really shouldn't have pulled a fast one to get some short term cost benefit.
     
  20. flamenko

    flamenko Senior member

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    What I stated was the simple truth. The 4 plus GB discrepancy is accounted for through RAISE requiring an entire die. A die used to be 4GB (32nm)and is now 8GB (25nm). This is your size difference and will be on any SF drive using the new 25nm NAND.
     
  21. jwilliams4200

    jwilliams4200 Senior member

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    Neither simple, nor truth.

    On an 8-channel controller like the SF1200, you should be able to use all 8 channels as long as you have either at least 8 packages or 8 die (depending on how many die are in each package and how they are addressed).

    On the circuit board of the 25nm 60GB OCZ Vertex 2, you can clearly see that their are 8 flash chip packages. Therefore, with a proper circuit board design and a proper 8-channel controller design, you can use all 8 channels. OCZ just botched it somehow. That does not mean that all Sandforce controlled SSDs will botch it. And it clearly does not mean that all 25nm flash SSDs will be slower than 34nm flash SSDs, since the 64GB C400 (with 25nm flash) has sequential specs that are higher than the 64GB C300 (with 34nm flash).

    EDIT:

    On re-reading your comment, it looks like you are making the claim that the lower capacity of the 25nm flash drives is a direct result of the number of flash chips on the circuit board. I suspect you are repeating a misleading claim from OCZ's forum. Both the 25nm and 34nm SSDs have the same total number of bytes of flash memory on the circuit board. But the overprovisioning (aka, reserved space) on the 25nm OCZ Vertex 2 SSDs is larger, which is why the available capacity is smaller. The misleading claim seems to be that the only reason the capacity is smaller is because an entire chip of flash memory must be reserved. While that may be true (I don't know those sorts of details about the SF1200 controller), I think the more important reason that they increased the reserved space is because the 3K erase/program cycles of the 25nm flash necessitate more reserved space in order to maintain the SSD expected lifetime.
     
    #20 jwilliams4200, Feb 16, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  22. taltamir

    taltamir Lifer

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    random specs on it are higher too.
     
  23. jwilliams4200

    jwilliams4200 Senior member

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  24. taltamir

    taltamir Lifer

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    IIRC I saw it mentioned in a preview on some website. lacking something more concrete though we can disregard it for now. Your argument is rock solid even without it.
     
  25. thescreensavers

    thescreensavers Diamond Member

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    Exactly. They also said that the price supposedly went down from the 34nm, to the 25nm. RMA department says 170 bucks for the 25nm drive which is the MSRP for the 34nm drive. Price drop my ass. Same price for less
     
  26. eva2000

    eva2000 Member

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    I think everyone was caught off guard with ocz's switch last week to 25nm - everyone including the media, and distributor and retailers. Will be a pain for retailers dealing with customers affected by this too as they wouldn't have know such a difference either.

    Question would be, if OCZ knew Micron 25nm wouldn't meet vertex 2 rated specs. If they didn't then would be something to take up with Micron ?
     
    #25 eva2000, Feb 16, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011