• Guest, The rules for the P & N subforum have been updated to prohibit "ad hominem" or personal attacks against other posters. See the full details in the post "Politics and News Rules & Guidelines."

Obamessiah running away from town hall debates

Page 6 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Right...but yet your whining about my posting about Obama continues...

funny how things are so selective here...
Did you ever think it might be the quality of your posts that is the problem as opposed to the target?
Judging from the responses from you Obamabots in ANY thread that doesn't paint him in a perfect light it matters little what the "quality" is because you denounce any of it.
But I do seem to remember a certain few people whining that I only post about Obama so the point stands. :)
As I said before, that is obviously (and easily provably) false.

I'm guessing that you haven't noticed the whole 'bot' thing is pretty old and tired as well.
I've yet to see you post anything of that nature OR accept a criticism of him but then again this isn't about YOU - which you'd understand if you read what I posted. I don't care if you think you've said one or two things you don't like about him. This is about the responses from you bots. It doesn't matter what the issue is, there is always a horde of apologists that swarm the "anti" obama threads. Thus my comment about "quality".

But like always, you'll see it how you wish...
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,187
8,736
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Right...but yet your whining about my posting about Obama continues...

funny how things are so selective here...
Did you ever think it might be the quality of your posts that is the problem as opposed to the target?
Judging from the responses from you Obamabots in ANY thread that doesn't paint him in a perfect light it matters little what the "quality" is because you denounce any of it.
But I do seem to remember a certain few people whining that I only post about Obama so the point stands. :)
Your posts are the equivalent of calling peoples' mothers whores, and then accusing them of getting upset by any post/thread that doesn't paint their mother in a perfect light.
IOW, you post lies all the time and then, when evidence is easily produced to disprove your lies, you attack the posters who do so as "Obamabots." That's what makes you a troll. It's obvious you're just setting other posters up. It's this TACTIC of yours, and not your personal political ideology (whatever that is), that has caused me to lose all respect for you.

It's also obvious that you're a mega McCain fanboi who's just embarrassed to admit it, but that's another issue.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,187
8,736
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Right...but yet your whining about my posting about Obama continues...

funny how things are so selective here...
Did you ever think it might be the quality of your posts that is the problem as opposed to the target?
Judging from the responses from you Obamabots in ANY thread that doesn't paint him in a perfect light it matters little what the "quality" is because you denounce any of it.
But I do seem to remember a certain few people whining that I only post about Obama so the point stands. :)
As I said before, that is obviously (and easily provably) false.

I'm guessing that you haven't noticed the whole 'bot' thing is pretty old and tired as well.
I've yet to see you post anything of that nature OR accept a criticism of him but then again this isn't about YOU - which you'd understand if you read what I posted. I don't care if you think you've said one or two things you don't like about him. This is about the responses from you bots. It doesn't matter what the issue is, there is always a horde of apologists that swarm the "anti" obama threads. Thus my comment about "quality".

But like always, you'll see it how you wish...
Have you even read your own OP for this thread? :confused:

It's the very definition of flamebait. Just like your "I have no horse in this race" makes your flamebait into the very definition of trolling.
If you have no genuine interest, then why the intentional provoking?
Even worse is how you pretend to be shocked and surprised by the responses.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Your posts are the equivalent of calling peoples' mothers whores, and then accusing them of getting upset by any post/thread that doesn't paint their mother in a perfect light.
IOW, you post lies all the time and then, when evidence is easily produced to disprove your lies, you attack the posters who do so as "Obamabots." That's what makes you a troll. It's obvious you're just setting other posters up. It's this TACTIC of yours, and not your personal political ideology (whatever that is), that has caused me to lose all respect for you.

It's also obvious that you're a mega McCain fanboi who's just embarrassed to admit it, but that's another issue.
Wow, talk about delusional...

Where exactly have I been a McCain fanboi? Oh that's right.... I'm not and haven't ever been. It must be a side effect of your switch from Libertarian to liberal/socialist that's caused your delusions...

Not that you'll care(or should) , I too have lost respect for you as you have abandoned your claimed ideology for something that has next to nothing in common with it. Then again, I could care less about what people like you think of me but thanks for sharing.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Have you even read your own OP for this thread? :confused:

It's the very definition of flamebait. Just like your "I have no horse in this race" makes your flamebait into the very definition of trolling.
If you have no genuine interest, then why the intentional provoking?
Even worse is how you pretend to be shocked and surprised by the responses.
<yawn>

How many times do you need it stated to you? Just because I don't support anyone does NOT mean I can not show Obama for what he is - the same old same old politics he claims to denounce.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,158
3,853
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Right...but yet your whining about my posting about Obama continues...

funny how things are so selective here...
Did you ever think it might be the quality of your posts that is the problem as opposed to the target?
Judging from the responses from you Obamabots in ANY thread that doesn't paint him in a perfect light it matters little what the "quality" is because you denounce any of it.
But I do seem to remember a certain few people whining that I only post about Obama so the point stands. :)
Your posts are the equivalent of calling peoples' mothers whores, and then accusing them of getting upset by any post/thread that doesn't paint their mother in a perfect light.
IOW, you post lies all the time and then, when evidence is easily produced to disprove your lies, you attack the posters who do so as "Obamabots." That's what makes you a troll. It's obvious you're just setting other posters up. It's this TACTIC of yours, and not your personal political ideology (whatever that is), that has caused me to lose all respect for you.

It's also obvious that you're a mega McCain fanboi who's just embarrassed to admit it, but that's another issue.
I diagnosed Caddy as a Schmoo, a plastic bag in the shape, say of a clown, filled will air and with sand in its base that you punch and it pops back up so you can punch it again. No matter not solidly you nail Caddy with a punch he pops back up just like a schmoo. It's sort of a variant on the tar baby.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,185
22,724
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

I've yet to see you post anything of that nature OR accept a criticism of him but then again this isn't about YOU - which you'd understand if you read what I posted. I don't care if you think you've said one or two things you don't like about him. This is about the responses from you bots. It doesn't matter what the issue is, there is always a horde of apologists that swarm the "anti" obama threads. Thus my comment about "quality".

But like always, you'll see it how you wish...
Well just the other day I trashed him for refusing public funding after pledging to adhere to it when it didn't look like he would win. So.. yeah. Funny thing was, that was a 'response' in an 'anti Obama' thread. So yeah like I said, obviously false. But right, it's not about ME, I mean sure I'm one of 'you Obamabots' as you called me, but you must have just meant all the OTHER ones.

I feel like this is what you don't understand (or willfully choose to ignore). If you make a thread with legitimate criticism, you get reasoned responses... some of which might even support you. If you make retarded threads like this one, you get flamed for being stupid.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,187
8,736
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Vic
Your posts are the equivalent of calling peoples' mothers whores, and then accusing them of getting upset by any post/thread that doesn't paint their mother in a perfect light.
IOW, you post lies all the time and then, when evidence is easily produced to disprove your lies, you attack the posters who do so as "Obamabots." That's what makes you a troll. It's obvious you're just setting other posters up. It's this TACTIC of yours, and not your personal political ideology (whatever that is), that has caused me to lose all respect for you.

It's also obvious that you're a mega McCain fanboi who's just embarrassed to admit it, but that's another issue.
Wow, talk about delusional...

Where exactly have I been a McCain fanboi? Oh that's right.... I'm not and haven't ever been. It must be a side effect of your switch from Libertarian to liberal/socialist that's caused your delusions...

Not that you'll care(or should) , I too have lost respect for you as you have abandoned your claimed ideology for something that has next to nothing in common with it. Then again, I could care less about what people like you think of me but thanks for sharing.
Do you have some kind of reading comprehension problem too? The issue I presented here is that you are constantly trolling, by the very definition of the word.
And my personal ideology is completely unchanged. It is you who have changed, and are blinded to that fact by your blind partisan fanboi-ism.
Is your precious McCain going to lower my taxes? No.
Is he going to reduce the size and scope of government? No.
I could go on and on and on here. The single biggest delusion in American politics today is that mainstream Republicans somehow think they believe in a libertarian-esque ideology. Fsckin' nonsense. You guys are authoritarian to the core.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,185
22,724
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Vic
Have you even read your own OP for this thread? :confused:

It's the very definition of flamebait. Just like your "I have no horse in this race" makes your flamebait into the very definition of trolling.
If you have no genuine interest, then why the intentional provoking?
Even worse is how you pretend to be shocked and surprised by the responses.
<yawn>

How many times do you need it stated to you? Just because I don't support anyone does NOT mean I can not show Obama for what he is - the same old same old politics he claims to denounce.
Maybe it would be easier to give you a sports analogy. In the last Super Bowl if you were rooting for the Patriots to lose, it was the same thing as rooting for the Giants to win.

To say "but but I don't like the Giants either!" in no way changes your desired outcome.

So, to say you 'don't have a horse in this race' is laughably false.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,187
8,736
126
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

I've yet to see you post anything of that nature OR accept a criticism of him but then again this isn't about YOU - which you'd understand if you read what I posted. I don't care if you think you've said one or two things you don't like about him. This is about the responses from you bots. It doesn't matter what the issue is, there is always a horde of apologists that swarm the "anti" obama threads. Thus my comment about "quality".

But like always, you'll see it how you wish...
Well just the other day I trashed him for refusing public funding after pledging to adhere to it when it didn't look like he would win. So.. yeah. Funny thing was, that was a 'response' in an 'anti Obama' thread. So yeah like I said, obviously false. But right, it's not about ME, I mean sure I'm one of 'you Obamabots' as you called me, but you must have just meant all the OTHER ones.

I feel like this is what you don't understand (or willfully choose to ignore). If you make a thread with legitimate criticism, you get reasoned responses... some of which might even support you. If you make retarded threads like this one, you get flamed for being stupid.
No no, you needed to create a thread about your criticism. And instead of making your comments intelligent and straightforward, you needed to riddle them with emotionally-charged words and rhetoric like 'Obamabot,' 'Obamessiah,' 'empty suit,' etc.

You see, that's the only way to prove impartiality to CAD. :roll:
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Hey look, it's the same 2 morons trying to spread this either or BS. My candidate is a Conservative. There isn't one in the race by my standards. That fact does NOT prevent me from railing against the same old liberal/socialist ideology and candidate who supports them. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one here with no horse in the race(meaning either of the 2 major party candidates) but you two keep trolling away if you wish.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

I've yet to see you post anything of that nature OR accept a criticism of him but then again this isn't about YOU - which you'd understand if you read what I posted. I don't care if you think you've said one or two things you don't like about him. This is about the responses from you bots. It doesn't matter what the issue is, there is always a horde of apologists that swarm the "anti" obama threads. Thus my comment about "quality".

But like always, you'll see it how you wish...
Well just the other day I trashed him for refusing public funding after pledging to adhere to it when it didn't look like he would win. So.. yeah. Funny thing was, that was a 'response' in an 'anti Obama' thread. So yeah like I said, obviously false. But right, it's not about ME, I mean sure I'm one of 'you Obamabots' as you called me, but you must have just meant all the OTHER ones.

I feel like this is what you don't understand (or willfully choose to ignore). If you make a thread with legitimate criticism, you get reasoned responses... some of which might even support you. If you make retarded threads like this one, you get flamed for being stupid.
No no, you needed to create a thread about your criticism. And instead of making your comments intelligent and straightforward, you needed to riddle them with emotionally-charged words and rhetoric like 'Obamabot,' 'Obamessiah,' 'empty suit,' etc.

You see, that's the only way to prove impartiality to CAD. :roll:
I never claimed to be impartial. YOU ASSume that not having a candidate to support means I must be impartial. Only a fool would make that assumption.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,187
8,736
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Hey look, it's the same 2 morons trying to spread this either or BS. My candidate is a Conservative. There isn't one in the race by my standards. That fact does NOT prevent me from railing against the same old liberal/socialist ideology and candidate who supports them. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one here with no horse in the race(meaning either of the 2 major party candidates) but you two keep trolling away if you wish.
The fact that you use liberal and socialist together like that, as though they were similar ideologies, proves that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. (edit: Text)

And I already proved here that you are the one trolling. What I am doing here is known as flaming. Get yer sh!t straight. It's annoying how you duh-vert and bounce from one straw man to the next. Do you really believe that anyone reading this is so easily fooled?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,185
22,724
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Hey look, it's the same 2 morons trying to spread this either or BS. My candidate is a Conservative. There isn't one in the race by my standards. That fact does NOT prevent me from railing against the same old liberal/socialist ideology and candidate who supports them. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one here with no horse in the race(meaning either of the 2 major party candidates) but you two keep trolling away if you wish.
To quote Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,541
260
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: yuppiejr
Originally posted by: lupi
I thought this guy was supposed to be the greatest orrator since jesus christ himself. Why wuld he decline such a chance to show up the beffudled old man.
Gifted orator or not, he is, like McCain, a professional politician making a calculated tactical move (probably, as others have stated, to avoid giving McCain the free press). I am neither surprised or offended by this move, it's just smart politics if you're in it to win. I think Obama supporters just need to acknowledge that regardless of the message or charisma, their guy is as much as much a part of the Washington machine as the Clintons, McCain, GWB and so many others, for better or worse.
The ONLY people who don't admit that last part are the Obama hating trolls like lupi, CAD, etc.
See that's where you are wrong. I'd be happy to admit that anyone that had a serious chance to get a party nomination was both part of the machine and had the machine supporting them. Those Obamabots that show up then feint after hearing such refreshing words crap are the only ones I see kidding themselves.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,187
8,736
126
Originally posted by: lupi
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: yuppiejr
Originally posted by: lupi
I thought this guy was supposed to be the greatest orrator since jesus christ himself. Why wuld he decline such a chance to show up the beffudled old man.
Gifted orator or not, he is, like McCain, a professional politician making a calculated tactical move (probably, as others have stated, to avoid giving McCain the free press). I am neither surprised or offended by this move, it's just smart politics if you're in it to win. I think Obama supporters just need to acknowledge that regardless of the message or charisma, their guy is as much as much a part of the Washington machine as the Clintons, McCain, GWB and so many others, for better or worse.
The ONLY people who don't admit that last part are the Obama hating trolls like lupi, CAD, etc.
See that's where you are wrong. I'd be happy to admit that anyone that had a serious chance to get a party nomination was both part of the machine and had the machine supporting them. Those Obamabots that show up then feint after hearing such refreshing words crap are the only ones I see kidding themselves.
Says the fanatical Hillary troll... :roll:

Get over it already.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Hey look, it's the same 2 morons trying to spread this either or BS. My candidate is a Conservative. There isn't one in the race by my standards. That fact does NOT prevent me from railing against the same old liberal/socialist ideology and candidate who supports them. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one here with no horse in the race(meaning either of the 2 major party candidates) but you two keep trolling away if you wish.
The fact that you use liberal and socialist together like that, as though they were similar ideologies, proves that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. (edit: Text)

And I already proved here that you are the one trolling. What I am doing here is known as flaming. Get yer sh!t straight. It's annoying how you duh-vert and bounce from one straw man to the next. Do you really believe that anyone reading this is so easily fooled?
Not a word about my post and your obvious lying about my position. ...not surprised.

And yes you were flaming while trolling.
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]
The topic at hand is Obama and the town hall debates. You and your sidekick eskimo are the ones trolling.


BTW, Obama is both liberal and socialist if positions and ideas are to be looked at... but that's another subject all together. So as usual, you ASSumption that I think they are similar is...well... stupid.
 

yuppiejr

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,318
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Hey look, it's the same 2 morons trying to spread this either or BS. My candidate is a Conservative. There isn't one in the race by my standards. That fact does NOT prevent me from railing against the same old liberal/socialist ideology and candidate who supports them. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one here with no horse in the race(meaning either of the 2 major party candidates) but you two keep trolling away if you wish.
The fact that you use liberal and socialist together like that, as though they were similar ideologies, proves that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

And I already proved here that you are the one trolling. What I am doing here is known as flaming. Get yer sh!t straight. It's annoying how you duh-vert and bounce from one straw man to the next. Do you really believe that anyone reading this is so easily fooled?
I would be interested in your take of the difference between a liberal in the modern US political sense and a socialist. I was admittedly unaware of the "split" definition of the term liberal as it applies to modern politics according to the codex of all knowledge, WIKIPEDIA - I believe when a conservative describes someone in this forum of being a "liberal socialist" they are generally referring to a "Social Liberal" per the definition below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

"Classical liberals, believe that the only real freedom is freedom from coercion.[4] As a result they see state intervention in the economy as a coercive power that restricts the economic freedom of individuals and favor laissez-faire economic policy. They oppose the welfare state.[5]

Social liberals argue that governments must take an active role in promoting the freedom of citizens. They believe that real freedom can only exist when citizens are healthy, educated, and free from dire poverty. They generally favor the right to an education, the right to health care, and the right to a minimum wage. Some also favor laws against discrimination in housing and employment, laws against pollution of the environment, and the provision of welfare, including unemployment benefit and housing for the homeless, all supported by progressive taxation.[4] "
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,187
8,736
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Hey look, it's the same 2 morons trying to spread this either or BS. My candidate is a Conservative. There isn't one in the race by my standards. That fact does NOT prevent me from railing against the same old liberal/socialist ideology and candidate who supports them. I know for a fact that I'm not the only one here with no horse in the race(meaning either of the 2 major party candidates) but you two keep trolling away if you wish.
The fact that you use liberal and socialist together like that, as though they were similar ideologies, proves that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. (edit: Text)

And I already proved here that you are the one trolling. What I am doing here is known as flaming. Get yer sh!t straight. It's annoying how you duh-vert and bounce from one straw man to the next. Do you really believe that anyone reading this is so easily fooled?
Not a word about my post and your obvious lying about my position. ...not surprised.

And yes you were flaming while trolling.
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]
The topic at hand is Obama and the town hall debates. You and your sidekick eskimo are the ones trolling.


BTW, Obama is both liberal and socialist if positions and ideas are to be looked at... but that's another subject all together. So as usual, you ASSumption that I think they are similar is...well... stupid.
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Obamessiah running away from town hall debates
http://www.usatoday.com/news/p...-townhall_N.htm?csp=34

Obama has offered to meet McCain in five joint appearances between now and the Nov. 4 election, but only one of those would be town hall-style and it would be on the July 4th Independence Day holiday, when few Americans would be watching. McCain called the offer "a very disappointing response."
Talk about hiding. 1 town hall debate...on the 4th of July when no one is watching? Is he really that scared of McCain? Or is it that he knows he won't be able to keep up the media notion that he's eloquent if he doesn't have his teleprompters?
You've become like this sad, strange characteriture of yourself, CAD.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,185
22,724
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Not a word about my post and your obvious lying about my position. ...not surprised.

And yes you were flaming while trolling.
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]
The topic at hand is Obama and the town hall debates. You and your sidekick eskimo are the ones trolling.

BTW, Obama is both liberal and socialist if positions and ideas are to be looked at... but that's another subject all together. So as usual, you ASSumption that I think they are similar is...well... stupid.
See the topic at hand was his trolling post, and so when you flame him you divert from the troll he was attempting and in fact end up trolling his troll yourself!

This is all getting very confusing. Why do I have to be the sidekick though? Robin blows. That's how you can tell when the Batman movies started sucking.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Vic
You've become like this sad, strange characteriture of yourself, CAD.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. You used to be a Libertarian who'd rip into either side, now you've become an obama apologist.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,187
8,736
126
Originally posted by: yuppiejr
I would be interested in your take of the difference between a liberal in the modern US political sense and a socialist. I was admittedly unaware of the "split" definition of the term liberal as it applies to modern politics according to the codex of all knowledge, WIKIPEDIA - I believe when a conservative describes someone in this forum of being a "liberal socialist" they are generally referring to a "Social Liberal" per the definition below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

"Classical liberals, believe that the only real freedom is freedom from coercion.[4] As a result they see state intervention in the economy as a coercive power that restricts the economic freedom of individuals and favor laissez-faire economic policy. They oppose the welfare state.[5]

Social liberals argue that governments must take an active role in promoting the freedom of citizens. They believe that real freedom can only exist when citizens are healthy, educated, and free from dire poverty. They generally favor the right to an education, the right to health care, and the right to a minimum wage. Some also favor laws against discrimination in housing and employment, laws against pollution of the environment, and the provision of welfare, including unemployment benefit and housing for the homeless, all supported by progressive taxation.[4] "
Socialism is defined by state or public ownership of the means of production. For example, in Chavez's Venezuela, the primary industry there (oil) is wholly-owned by the state under a single entity, PDVSA. That is socialism.
Or one could point to the UK's publicly owned and funded National Health System as an example of socialism. Hell, it's one of the world's largest employers.

However, provisions for some positive rights, like education, etc. are not socialism nor are the contrary to even classical liberalism. For example, Jefferson claimed near the end of his life to be more proud of having established the world's first public university of higher education (the University of Virginia) than of having written the Declaration of Independence.
The reasoning is simple, education is necessary for free markets and democracy to exist. Just as the rule of law is. And how is the rule of law provided?

I could go on and on here. Suffice to say that no ideology exists in a pure or single-minded form. You can't point to one group of anything and say they all share the same beliefs. However, the differences between liberalism and socialism are far more profound than the most minor differences (and I'm being serious here) between liberals and conservatives. I'm totally serious here. Most conservatives are just yesterday's liberals. What was just a generation or 2 ago some great progressive change is today treasured by conservatives as a great American tradition. This IMO is why Mill said that he never said that all conservatives are stupid, just that stupid people are usually conservative. IOW, the difference between liberal and conservative in America is NOT one of ideology, but of attitude.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
48,187
8,736
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Vic
You've become like this sad, strange characteriture of yourself, CAD.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. You used to be a Libertarian who'd rip into either side, now you've become an obama apologist.
I am still a libertarian (note: small "l", as it's always been, as I am actually a classical liberal and always have been) and I still rip into both sides.

When this election is over, I'll go back full-tilt into the left. I hate to break it to you, but right-wing status quo kneejerkers, like yourself, don't make for fulfilling political discussion.
In the political spectrum, you have the people who think change is always good, and then the people (like yourself) who think change is always bad. IMO they're equally stupid in their fight and denial of reality. Change is inevitable. Or as Neil Peart famously said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Vic
You've become like this sad, strange characteriture of yourself, CAD.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about you. You used to be a Libertarian who'd rip into either side, now you've become an obama apologist.
I am still a libertarian (note: small "l", as it's always been, as I am actually a classical liberal and always have been) and I still rip into both sides.

When this election is over, I'll go back full-tilt into the left. I hate to break it to you, but right-wing status quo kneejerkers, like yourself, don't make for fulfilling political discussion.
In the political spectrum, you have the people who think change is always good, and then the people (like yourself) who think change is always bad. IMO they're equally stupid in their fight and denial of reality. Change is inevitable. Or as Neil Peart famously said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
Wow, you sure do claim to know alot about me yet you haven't a clue. I do NOT think change is always bad. However, I think too much can be disasterous. "change" is not why I dislike Obama, I actually think he'll be more of the same democrat than a "change" democrat. But you keep hoping and wishing if you must but it still amazes me that someone as Libertarian as you have been is supporting someone who is so big central gov't. I don't support McCain for many of the same reasons you don't, yet there is no way in hell I'd ever consider voting for Obama.
 

Excelsior

Lifer
May 30, 2002
19,048
17
81
But you keep hoping and wishing if you must but it still amazes me that someone as Libertarian as you have been is supporting someone who is so big central gov't.
One could say the same thing for those who have supported Bush all these years...God knows he hasn't done anything to decrease the size of the central government. ;)

Its pretty clear that both parties, right now, care little about truly decreasing the size of the federal government. So one has to take that into consideration before furthering the discussion.
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY