Obama's speech on race in America

[Farang]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Farang
I just realized why this speech was pure genius. Nobody can disagree with "Let's bring up the race issue and talk about what we usually only do in private company." But can you imagine McCain actually talking about the race issue, contributing to the debate? He has nothing to bring to the table and even if he did it would help Obama to discuss it. Obama has also framed the Wright issue in the larger picture, which some are criticizing but I also think is smart because he is saying Wright's stupid comments come from bitterness of a past generation. People ask why this wouldn't be excused had it been a white racist, and I say it is simple. One is the guilty party who has not yet apologized, and one is the victim who has not yet forgiven. We aren't all guilty but you certainly are if you are a white racist of Wright's generation. So while Obama's use of the race issue was good political maneuvering, I believe it was justified here.

That's no excuse for infecting the next generation with his hate. This is the same as excusing a child molester because he was molested as a child. You're not going to effect true change preaching that attitude and Obama is smart enough to know that.

The end does not justify the means.

Actually it is like the child who was molested accusing the molester and the molester's children of other acts they never committed, 40 years later. I thought the line that should be taken away from my post was "People ask why this wouldn't be excused had it been a white racist, and I say it is simple. One is the guilty party who has not yet apologized, and one is the victim who has not yet forgiven."

If it is a 20 year old black guy saying the same thing, no excuse. Wright really doesn't have much of an excuse either, but any black person who lived pre-1970 has a right to be a bit bitter. Either way they aren't Obama's statements so this is all moot.

edit: that is, more of a right to be bitter than a white racist. That is why there is a double standard and many people don't seem to understand.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Farang
I just realized why this speech was pure genius. Nobody can disagree with "Let's bring up the race issue and talk about what we usually only do in private company." But can you imagine McCain actually talking about the race issue, contributing to the debate? He has nothing to bring to the table and even if he did it would help Obama to discuss it. Obama has also framed the Wright issue in the larger picture, which some are criticizing but I also think is smart because he is saying Wright's stupid comments come from bitterness of a past generation. People ask why this wouldn't be excused had it been a white racist, and I say it is simple. One is the guilty party who has not yet apologized, and one is the victim who has not yet forgiven. We aren't all guilty but you certainly are if you are a white racist of Wright's generation. So while Obama's use of the race issue was good political maneuvering, I believe it was justified here.

That's no excuse for infecting the next generation with his hate. This is the same as excusing a child molester because he was molested as a child. You're not going to effect true change preaching that attitude and Obama is smart enough to know that.

The end does not justify the means.

Obama didn't excuse it any more than using the same excuse for two different things, one of which is child molesting, makes the other thing being excused the moral equivalence of pedophilia. You are using bad assumptions and then bad logic to imply your own personal bias and it's bull shit.

I call bullshit on your calling bullshit.

I'm making a comparison. If you're molested as a child your more likley to molest children when you grow up. If your Dad was a wife beater, your more likley to grow up to be a wife beater. If your taught from a young age that the majority of your problems are caused by white oppression then your more likely to grow up believeing it. That is the way racism works, it's taught. It doesn't matter if your black or white. I taught my kids that we're not any better or more deserving then blacks or any other race, but conversely they're not any better or more deserving then us.

I don't see how black value churches are being helpful in improving race relations, in fact over the long term I think they're doing as much if not more harm then good.

Edit: When I say "black value churches", I mean ones in the style of the church Obama belonged to.

What you mean is 'black value churches' in the style you imagine Obama's church belongs to. You actually know very little about his church if you haven't attended over a period of time and have some real as opposed to purported information which you glom onto because it fits your needs. NPR did a thingi on his church today from the perspective of a number of actual members who say the notion the church is radical is BS. Apparently also it is full of professors other intellectuals and professionals. Forgive me if I don't run with you screaming off the top of a cliff.

I don't need to "imagine" it, they have videos. Those same members you speak so highly of also took the 12 points of what the "black value system" entails off their main page and hid it. How "intellectual" and "professional" of them.

Hey, I'm just a dumb farmer who's "unashamedly white and unapolagetically Christian" and I call it the way I see it. I guess we'll all be jumping of the cliff together.

I can't really believe that you are still trying to push this angle regarding the 12 points.

But hey, I'm just a dumb systems administrator who would never recommend "hiding" a web page on a web server under the same directory structure as the website that I am trying to keep it disassociated from. :roll:

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

I can't really believe that you are still trying to push this angle regarding the 12 points.

But hey, I'm just a dumb systems administrator who would never recommend "hiding" a web page on a web server under the same directory structure as the website that I am trying to keep it disassociated from. :roll:

So Mr. sys admin, how would the average joe find that page?

If 99% of the people want to find out more about Obama's black values church go there and don't see that info then by defintiion, it's hidden. I found it a month or so ago or I wouldn't have know it was there either.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

I can't really believe that you are still trying to push this angle regarding the 12 points.

But hey, I'm just a dumb systems administrator who would never recommend "hiding" a web page on a web server under the same directory structure as the website that I am trying to keep it disassociated from. :roll:

So Mr. sys admin, how would the average joe find that page?

If 99% of the people want to find out more about Obama's black values church go there and don't see that info then by defintiion, it's hidden. I found it a month or so ago or I wouldn't have know it was there either.

I'd use gogle and find THIS

BTW: This site says the link is still there, just harder to find (now at the bottom of the page).

Edit: http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html the pledge stuff on the church's page

Fern

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Farang
I just realized why this speech was pure genius. Nobody can disagree with "Let's bring up the race issue and talk about what we usually only do in private company." But can you imagine McCain actually talking about the race issue, contributing to the debate? He has nothing to bring to the table and even if he did it would help Obama to discuss it. Obama has also framed the Wright issue in the larger picture, which some are criticizing but I also think is smart because he is saying Wright's stupid comments come from bitterness of a past generation. People ask why this wouldn't be excused had it been a white racist, and I say it is simple. One is the guilty party who has not yet apologized, and one is the victim who has not yet forgiven. We aren't all guilty but you certainly are if you are a white racist of Wright's generation. So while Obama's use of the race issue was good political maneuvering, I believe it was justified here.

That's no excuse for infecting the next generation with his hate. This is the same as excusing a child molester because he was molested as a child. You're not going to effect true change preaching that attitude and Obama is smart enough to know that.

The end does not justify the means.

Obama didn't excuse it any more than using the same excuse for two different things, one of which is child molesting, makes the other thing being excused the moral equivalence of pedophilia. You are using bad assumptions and then bad logic to imply your own personal bias and it's bull shit.

I call bullshit on your calling bullshit.

I'm making a comparison. If you're molested as a child your more likley to molest children when you grow up. If your Dad was a wife beater, your more likley to grow up to be a wife beater. If your taught from a young age that the majority of your problems are caused by white oppression then your more likely to grow up believeing it. That is the way racism works, it's taught. It doesn't matter if your black or white. I taught my kids that we're not any better or more deserving then blacks or any other race, but conversely they're not any better or more deserving then us.

I don't see how black value churches are being helpful in improving race relations, in fact over the long term I think they're doing as much if not more harm then good.

Edit: When I say "black value churches", I mean ones in the style of the church Obama belonged to.

What you mean is 'black value churches' in the style you imagine Obama's church belongs to. You actually know very little about his church if you haven't attended over a period of time and have some real as opposed to purported information which you glom onto because it fits your needs. NPR did a thingi on his church today from the perspective of a number of actual members who say the notion the church is radical is BS. Apparently also it is full of professors other intellectuals and professionals. Forgive me if I don't run with you screaming off the top of a cliff.

I don't need to "imagine" it, they have videos. Those same members you speak so highly of also took the 12 points of what the "black value system" entails off their main page and hid it. How "intellectual" and "professional" of them.

Hey, I'm just a dumb farmer who's "unashamedly white and unapolagetically Christian" and I call it the way I see it. I guess we'll all be jumping of the cliff together.

I love farmers and Christians. What I don't much value is people who are anxious to condemn on the basis of small samplings. Try to see this as you would if the attack were on Hillary.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

I can't really believe that you are still trying to push this angle regarding the 12 points.

But hey, I'm just a dumb systems administrator who would never recommend "hiding" a web page on a web server under the same directory structure as the website that I am trying to keep it disassociated from. :roll:

So Mr. sys admin, how would the average joe find that page?

If 99% of the people want to find out more about Obama's black values church go there and don't see that info then by defintiion, it's hidden. I found it a month or so ago or I wouldn't have know it was there either.

In a perfect world, you may be right that they are racist. But put this in the context of American history and these values are not racist at all. People need to understand that, 150 years after slavery, AAs are still trying to find themselves, their identity.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

I can't really believe that you are still trying to push this angle regarding the 12 points.

But hey, I'm just a dumb systems administrator who would never recommend "hiding" a web page on a web server under the same directory structure as the website that I am trying to keep it disassociated from. :roll:

So Mr. sys admin, how would the average joe find that page?

If 99% of the people want to find out more about Obama's black values church go there and don't see that info then by defintiion, it's hidden. I found it a month or so ago or I wouldn't have know it was there either.

I'd use gogle and find THIS

BTW: This site says the link is still there, just harder to find (now at the bottom of the page).

Edit: http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html the pledge stuff on the church's page

Fern

Well, how good is the average persons google skills. Hardly anybody from my fathers generation would know how to do that and I dare say the majority of my generation isn't much better.

I found it but it's hidden pretty good compared to where it was. It used to be prominetly featured on the "about" page but now it's a little link at the bottom of the home page.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

I can't really believe that you are still trying to push this angle regarding the 12 points.

But hey, I'm just a dumb systems administrator who would never recommend "hiding" a web page on a web server under the same directory structure as the website that I am trying to keep it disassociated from. :roll:

So Mr. sys admin, how would the average joe find that page?

If 99% of the people want to find out more about Obama's black values church go there and don't see that info then by defintiion, it's hidden. I found it a month or so ago or I wouldn't have know it was there either.

What I am saying that companies/organizations update websites on a constant basis and if they were truly "hiding" the page it never would have been found.

It would have been moved off of the server and purged. Someone might have been able to find a cached version depending on their level of expertise.....but they would never, ever be able to get it from my public site.

As for still allowing access to members so that they could brush up on their 12 points....that's what intranet sites are for.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

I can't really believe that you are still trying to push this angle regarding the 12 points.

But hey, I'm just a dumb systems administrator who would never recommend "hiding" a web page on a web server under the same directory structure as the website that I am trying to keep it disassociated from. :roll:

So Mr. sys admin, how would the average joe find that page?

If 99% of the people want to find out more about Obama's black values church go there and don't see that info then by defintiion, it's hidden. I found it a month or so ago or I wouldn't have know it was there either.

What I am saying that companies/organizations update websites on a constant basis and if they were truly "hiding" the page it never would have been found.

It would have been moved off of the server and purged. Someone might have been able to find a cached version depending on their level of expertise.....but they would never, ever be able to get it from my public site.

As for still allowing access to members so that they could brush up on their 12 points....that's what intranet sites are for.

And what I'm saying is if they took it off altogether then they would get heat for that because I have found a site where they have the web page cached. Now they can't be accused of taking it off because they only "updated" their site and hide a link to it at the bottom of one of the main links.

They never changed the look of anything, they just took the info in question from a prominent place and make it harder to find.

 

[Thump553]

In case anyone wants to see the speech for themselves and ignore the rest of the p*ssing match this thread has become:

Obama's race speech

 

[zinfamous]

I vote in between option 1 and option 2, b/c he didn't dodge the issue. He's been pretty good about taking on the BS that's thrown at him, as well as the justified criticism.

The dude has a fucking spine.

 

[Jhhnn]

You've been pwned, 1EZduzit- First you claim the info was removed, which it wasn't, and now claim it's hard to find, which it isn't, at all.

"Click here to read about the Black Value System"- right on the front page.

It's a helluva lot easier than finding what you want on the Microsoft site, that's for sure, or finding a bios update on the Asus site, for example...

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
You've been pwned, 1EZduzit- First you claim the info was removed, which it wasn't, and now claim it's hard to find, which it isn't, at all.

"Click here to read about the Black Value System"- right on the front page.

It's a helluva lot easier than finding what you want on the Microsoft site, that's for sure, or finding a bios update on the Asus site, for example...

Yeah right :roll:

I was at that web site a month ago and the black values info was prominetly displayed then. In one of these threads about Obama I posted links to an archived page of what it looked like. I'd look for it if I cared enough but I know it's there and don't really care to waste anymore of my time on it.

Besides, that's just one minor issue. The real issue is that Obama has attended a black values church with a radical pastor that Obama himself has described as the man whp "calibrates his moral compass". He never denouced anything Wright said until he felt it was politically advantgous for him to do so.

Obama has owned himself. How can he expect me vote for him to represent me when his whole religous belief is contrary to the Christianity the rest of the country beliefs in.

I wonder what Obama's great-grandfather was doing while my great-grandfather was a Union soilder in the civil war?

I have more important things going on right now then to argue with people who have their minds made up. you think what you want and so will I.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Personally, I thought it was a great speech. I felt that he addressed the issues head on and conveyed a clear message of what he envisioned for race relations in this country and the foundation he would like to put in place without being naive enough to believe that it can be fixed overnight.

I thought that he handled the part about the Rev. appropriately and head on and effectively painted those that will continue to try to push that angle as diverters attempting to keep Americans from discussing the real issues that are effecting us all.

Overall, I couldn't help but think that this must have been how people felt when they listened to Kennedy back in the early '60s. Truly inspiring to me.

What say you?

rodney king said it many years ago, and in much shorter:
Cant we all get along?