Obamacare's effect on the middle class

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Where did i say I could prove anything? Oh that's right, i didn't/ Hell, using your simplisitic logic if I demand you prove your not lying and you can't, then obviously you are a liar.

DUHHHHH!!

Sure, ask me to prove my opinions are the way I feel. I would be MORE than happy to do that. Good luck with that!

So you just admitted you can't prove anything and you're just name calling. Thank you, that was easy.

P.S. You're the one that started with the "you're a liar;" I merely asked for a simple answer on what I was lying about and for you to prove it was a lie. As the accuser, the impetus is on you to prove it.

I can call you a liar anytime I want, deal with it. This isn't a court of law so unless you're going to sue me there isn't anything you can do about it. I'll say it again, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

I'm sure you are lying about not voting. I realize it's tough to admit you voted for Bush (twice?), but denial is not going to help you come to terms with your problems.

^ Is there a minimum age required to post here?

LOL, so you're not old enough to vote either?

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: Ausm
Sure it will!! What's the problem with the Insurance companies raping everyone raw and laughing all the way to the bank? I really don't see how a 400% increase in profits in the last ten years would do this.

That's a bullshit number by the way. In order to put that increase in perspective, you'd have to take into account the fact that average HI profit margins are still only sitting at roughly 3 to 5%. Where's all that money going from the supposed 400% increase? It sure as hell isn't present in their actual profit margins, or in their salaries which are already factored into those profit margins, so it must be being spent somewhere... on something. One must conclude that overhead for the HI has also risen almost 400%. So, perhaps it's the costs to the HI companies that might be a problem? hmm...

The fact is that HI profits account for less than 2% of the total U.S. expenditures on healthcare. That bears repeating: HI profits account for less than 2% of the total U.S. expenditures on healthcare!

Any 5th-grader could deduce that the real problem must lie elsewhere. hmm...

If you truly want to address the issue and fix the actual problems, you'd first have to acknowledge the above. The problem, for too many of you, is that these facts get in the way of most of your rhetoric -- you just gotta have your fall-guy or boogieman, don't ya?

Oh yeah? I was technically right until the recession hit...

Suck on this...

http://www.politifact.com/trut...er-profits-have-risen/

*WooooOOSH* Hear that? That's the sound of the point flying right over your fucking head.

What I was telling you was that the statistic is meaningless -- not that it was false -- since the costs to those same HI companies have risen in parallel with their "profits" during that time. In other words, they didn't pocket that 400%, which is what folks like you are implying when you toss that statistic around. Instead, that money disappeared into the real bottomless moneypit that is our entire healthcare system.

I'm sure that your petty rhetorical antics work on your friends at Starbucks every evening, but they won't fly around here when real numbers are available to demonstrate the truth of the matter -- that truth being that only about 0.374% of our healthcare costs are derived from HI profits and HI CEO salaries. Which means that the real problems -- 99.626% of our healthcare costs -- lie elsewhere in the system.

Now, if solving only 0.374% of the problem is your goal, then carry on. :roll:

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: Ausm
Sure it will!! What's the problem with the Insurance companies raping everyone raw and laughing all the way to the bank? I really don't see how a 400% increase in profits in the last ten years would do this.

That's a bullshit number by the way. In order to put that increase in perspective, you'd have to take into account the fact that average HI profit margins are still only sitting at roughly 3 to 5%. Where's all that money going from the supposed 400% increase? It sure as hell isn't present in their actual profit margins, or in their salaries which are already factored into those profit margins, so it must be being spent somewhere... on something. One must conclude that overhead for the HI has also risen almost 400%. So, perhaps it's the costs to the HI companies that might be a problem? hmm...

The fact is that HI profits account for less than 2% of the total U.S. expenditures on healthcare. That bears repeating: HI profits account for less than 2% of the total U.S. expenditures on healthcare!

Any 5th-grader could deduce that the real problem must lie elsewhere. hmm...

If you truly want to address the issue and fix the actual problems, you'd first have to acknowledge the above. The problem, for too many of you, is that these facts get in the way of most of your rhetoric -- you just gotta have your fall-guy or boogieman, don't ya?

Oh yeah? I was technically right until the recession hit...

Suck on this...

http://www.politifact.com/trut...er-profits-have-risen/

*WooooOOSH* Hear that? That's the sound of the point flying right over your fucking head.

What I was telling you was that the statistic is meaningless -- not that it was false -- since the costs to those same HI companies have risen in parallel with their "profits" during that time. In other words, they didn't pocket that 400%, which is what folks like you are implying when you toss that statistic around. Instead, that money disappeared into the real bottomless moneypit that is our entire healthcare system.

I'm sure that your petty rhetorical antics work on your friends at Starbucks every evening, but they won't fly around here when real numbers are available to demonstrate the truth of the matter -- that truth being that only about 0.374% of our healthcare costs are derived from HI profits and HI CEO salaries. Which means that the real problems -- 99.626% of our healthcare costs -- lie elsewhere in the system.

Now, if solving only 0.374% of the problem is your goal, then carry on. :roll:

Numbnuts did I say it was the total fucking problem? Fucking tool..

I was backing up my 400% increase claim...

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
i think those figures include state spending as well (schip, mostly)

All of Medicaid is shared spending by the Federal Government and the States. Government spending in this area is hobbled though, by the fact that it was designed within the private insurance construct...which itself was designed by medical specialists. It's not just the employer-paid model that is an artifact of the war. The payment structure of all our medical programs reflect the fact that when the payment plans were being devised, it was the specialists who had the time to go to regional meetings. GPs couldn't just set aside a whole or half-day in the middle of the week to attend committee meetings about payment schedules so what we have is a fee schedule that favors specialists and procedures.

Originally posted by: dullard

The health insurance industry can clean up this mess without much goverment involvement. But they'll have to be far stronger than they are now. They have to cut their expenses. They have to encourage good tests/proceedures while discouraging useless ones. They have to completely change their whole structure and system. That, for the most part, doesn't require government intervention. However, the HI industry ISN'T making those changes. That is why the goverment must step in.

afaik, kaiser has been doing a fantastic job of doing exactly that.

That's why Kaiser can charge 10% less than competing insurers and still maintain its edge.

and of course when they deny something that the statistics says isn't going to work any better, but the patient's doctor says is going to work, we get cries that the insurance company is denying needed care and a lawsuit. damned if you do....

This American Life broadcast a program called More is Less over the weekend and the last segment speaks to just that.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Where did i say I could prove anything? Oh that's right, i didn't/ Hell, using your simplisitic logic if I demand you prove your not lying and you can't, then obviously you are a liar.

DUHHHHH!!

Sure, ask me to prove my opinions are the way I feel. I would be MORE than happy to do that. Good luck with that!

So you just admitted you can't prove anything and you're just name calling. Thank you, that was easy.

P.S. You're the one that started with the "you're a liar;" I merely asked for a simple answer on what I was lying about and for you to prove it was a lie. As the accuser, the impetus is on you to prove it.

I can call you a liar anytime I want, deal with it. This isn't a court of law so unless you're going to sue me there isn't anything you can do about it. I'll say it again, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

I'm sure you are lying about not voting. I realize it's tough to admit you voted for Bush (twice?), but denial is not going to help you come to terms with your problems.

The really embarrassing thing for you is that it really shows how pathetic you are to sling accusations around and then refuse to back them up except with "I can call you a liar if I want." Childish behavior to the max, from someone who was "going to teach me manners." What next? "Well, uh, my daddy can beat your daddy up!" Is that the next tool from your repertoire of tricks? What a freaking joke. Just like the health care thread, where you were repeatedly laughed at. You're in McOwned territory now.

You can believe what you want, and I frankly don't care one way or another at this point You're a joke and the only defender you've had in this entire thread is Dave McOwned. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

And of course, the point I was making all along, which you confirmed -- yet again -- is that you have no proof or empirical evidence of any sort and are just calling names. Thanks again for the second confirmation in this thread.

<flush> Another turd down the drain. Better get the plunger, this one was a doozey.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Where did i say I could prove anything? Oh that's right, i didn't/ Hell, using your simplisitic logic if I demand you prove your not lying and you can't, then obviously you are a liar.

DUHHHHH!!

Sure, ask me to prove my opinions are the way I feel. I would be MORE than happy to do that. Good luck with that!

So you just admitted you can't prove anything and you're just name calling. Thank you, that was easy.

P.S. You're the one that started with the "you're a liar;" I merely asked for a simple answer on what I was lying about and for you to prove it was a lie. As the accuser, the impetus is on you to prove it.

I can call you a liar anytime I want, deal with it. This isn't a court of law so unless you're going to sue me there isn't anything you can do about it. I'll say it again, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

I'm sure you are lying about not voting. I realize it's tough to admit you voted for Bush (twice?), but denial is not going to help you come to terms with your problems.

^ Is there a minimum age required to post here?

Seriously, don't bother. You should have seen the health care thread where several users were posting studies (including from the CBO and reputable news sources) and he refused to believe them, saying "Uh, I can think 'independently.'" Because after all, he knows more than the board of PhDs from the CBO.

In his defense though, I have got to believe that he is just trolling and trying to ruffle feathers, as I really can't believe any person is that dense. That is my theory going forward.

 

[Ozoned]

"That's why my health care plan includes improving information technology, requires coverage for preventive care and pre-existing conditions and lowers health care costs for the typical family by $2,500 a year."

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Where did i say I could prove anything? Oh that's right, i didn't/ Hell, using your simplisitic logic if I demand you prove your not lying and you can't, then obviously you are a liar.

DUHHHHH!!

Sure, ask me to prove my opinions are the way I feel. I would be MORE than happy to do that. Good luck with that!

So you just admitted you can't prove anything and you're just name calling. Thank you, that was easy.

P.S. You're the one that started with the "you're a liar;" I merely asked for a simple answer on what I was lying about and for you to prove it was a lie. As the accuser, the impetus is on you to prove it.

I can call you a liar anytime I want, deal with it. This isn't a court of law so unless you're going to sue me there isn't anything you can do about it. I'll say it again, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

I'm sure you are lying about not voting. I realize it's tough to admit you voted for Bush (twice?), but denial is not going to help you come to terms with your problems.

The really embarrassing thing for you is that it really shows how pathetic you are to sling accusations around and then refuse to back them up except with "I can call you a liar if I want." Childish behavior to the max, from someone who was "going to teach me manners." What next? "Well, uh, my daddy can beat your daddy up!" Is that the next tool from your repertoire of tricks? What a freaking joke. Just like the health care thread, where you were repeatedly laughed at. You're in McOwned territory now.

You can believe what you want, and I frankly don't care one way or another at this point You're a joke and the only defender you've had in this entire thread is Dave McOwned. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

And of course, the point I was making all along, which you confirmed -- yet again -- is that you have no proof or empirical evidence of any sort and are just calling names. Thanks again for the second confirmation in this thread.

<flush> Another turd down the drain. Better get the plunger, this one was a doozey.

SLing? LOL, you are always trying to redefine what someone says to fit what you claim. You lie through your teeth, anybody and i m,ean ANYBODY who clasims they don't lie is nothing but a god damned liar. Everybody lies about something.

Of course you think you're as pure as the driven snow and can't be bothered to vote for someone who isn't the perfect ideal. LMAO@U you lying piece of shit!!

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

SLing? LOL, you are always trying to redefine what someone says to fit what you claim. You lie through your teeth, anybody and i m,ean ANYBODY who clasims they don't lie is nothing but a god damned liar. Everybody lies about something.

Of course you think you're as pure as the driven snow and can't be bothered to vote for someone who isn't the perfect ideal. LMAO@U you lying piece of shit!!

Really? You called me a liar. I can quote your message if you'd like. I said "Hey, you called me a liar -- please tell me what I lied about and refute it." Which was very respectfully requested, I might add. All of this is here for the record for everyone to read. Please explain how that is "redefining" what you said?

On second thought, don't bother. Apparently you have trouble keeping up. You said I lied in the context of this thread. Now you're trying to say "But...but...I meant everyone lies on occasion!" Who is doing the redefining now? Nice try, but no cigar chief. You then admitted, after repeated prodding, that you had no proof that I lied. In other words, you admitted I was right (twice, I might add) when I said you had nothing and were just calling names. Thank you for proving me right. TWICE.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

SLing? LOL, you are always trying to redefine what someone says to fit what you claim. You lie through your teeth, anybody and i m,ean ANYBODY who clasims they don't lie is nothing but a god damned liar. Everybody lies about something.

Of course you think you're as pure as the driven snow and can't be bothered to vote for someone who isn't the perfect ideal. LMAO@U you lying piece of shit!!

Really? You called me a liar. I can quote your message if you'd like. I said "Hey, you called me a liar -- please tell me what I lied about and refute it." Which was very respectfully requested, I might add. All of this is here for the record for everyone to read. Please explain how that is "redefining" what you said?

On second thought, don't bother. Apparently you have trouble keeping up. You said I lied in the context of this thread. Now you're trying to say "But...but...I meant everyone lies on occasion!" Who is doing the redefining now? Nice try, but no cigar chief. You then admitted, after repeated prodding, that you had no proof that I lied. In other words, you admitted I was right (twice, I might add) when I said you had nothing and were just calling names. Thank you for proving me right. TWICE.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

So you're still insisting you're not a liar? I guess you should change your handle to Jesus or perhaps God Almighty would be more fitting?

DUHHHHH!!!!

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
So you're still insisting you're not a liar? I guess you should change your handle to Jesus or perhaps God Almighty would be more fitting?

DUHHHHH!!!!

Again:

Apparently you have trouble keeping up. You said I lied in the context of this thread.

To summarize:

You said I lied in the context of this thread.

Translation: You said I lied in this thread.

 

[Muse]

I'm sure that informed people are aware of this but I'm just butting in here to lodge my complaint on the OP being inflammatory, not to mention idiotic. The only major industrialized nation on the planet's latest try to get out from under the thumb of the insurance companies labeled "Obamacare!?" Give us a break!

The insurance industry's lobbying wing doing an eleventh hour hatchet job, taking off their sheep's skin and revealing their wolf character and going for the throat with outlandish claims doesn't seem to be working. Who really thought they were on board with the movement toward some form of universal health care? They are terrified of losing their power. Their posturing is to hide the fact, but in reality they know that they are the ones with the most to lose. Potentially, they could be rendered obsolete.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
So you're still insisting you're not a liar? I guess you should change your handle to Jesus or perhaps God Almighty would be more fitting?

DUHHHHH!!!!

Again:

Apparently you have trouble keeping up. You said I lied in the context of this thread.

To summarize:

You said I lied in the context of this thread.

Translation: You said I lied in this thread.

Liar liar pants on fire, hanging from a telephone wire

Seriously dude, grow up and act your age. I know you have to be at least 12.

Maybe you need the last word? Fine with me, have it. I never did beleive that those that laugh last, laugh best. It's always been clear to me that those who laugh best, laugh best. And you gave me some good laughs.

Thanks

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
So you're still insisting you're not a liar? I guess you should change your handle to Jesus or perhaps God Almighty would be more fitting?

DUHHHHH!!!!

Again:

Apparently you have trouble keeping up. You said I lied in the context of this thread.

To summarize:

You said I lied in the context of this thread.

Translation: You said I lied in this thread.

Liar liar pants on fire, hanging from a telephone wire

Seriously dude, grow up and act your age. I know you have to be at least 12.

Maybe you need the last word? Fine with me, have it. I never did beleive that those that laugh last, laugh best. It's always been clear to me that those who laugh best, laugh best. And you gave me some good laughs.

Thanks

In this case, I laugh last, and best, when people make accusations and then can't back them up when called on it. Thanks!

 

[nobodyknows]

LOL, I'm posting from page one so I can't see Dickhorsts reply, but I see he replied. LMAO!!! Guess what, I LIED and never let him have the last word!!!!! And he will come here to see what I said and will realize he's wasting his time because of me and for my amusement, LOL!!!!!!

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
LOL, I'm posting from page one so I can't see Dickhorsts reply, but I see he replied. LMAO!!! Guess what, I LIED and never let him have the last word!!!!! And he will come here to see what I said and will realize he's wasting his time because of me and for my amusement, LOL!!!!!!

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Excellent, you admitted you lied. Quoted for posterity and a great testament to your character (in this case, lack thereof).

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Muse
I'm sure that informed people are aware of this but I'm just butting in here to lodge my complaint on the OP being inflammatory, not to mention idiotic. The only major industrialized nation on the planet's latest try to get out from under the thumb of the insurance companies labeled "Obamacare!?" Give us a break!

The insurance industry's lobbying wing doing an eleventh hour hatchet job, taking off their sheep's skin and revealing their wolf character and going for the throat with outlandish claims doesn't seem to be working. Who really thought they were on board with the movement toward some form of universal health care? They are terrified of losing their power. Their posturing is to hide the fact, but in reality they know that they are the ones with the most to lose. Potentially, they could be rendered obsolete.

First of all, *I* never called it "Obamacare". The article I linked did. Perhaps you need to learn to read? Second, I have stated many times in other threads, Im all FOR reform, and that my personal opinion is specifically HB3200 is NOT reform, its just a giant welfare bill.

Care to amend your post?

 

[Rainsford]

I see two major problems with the analysis presented in the article. The first is the assumption that ALL private employers will drop their health care offerings in favor of paying the payroll tax, even on higher income employees. The author of this article makes that assumption with no supporting argument, and it seems less than obvious to me why companies would do that. Part of being competitive is offering benefits to your employees, which is the reason most people making $90K per year have health insurance right now. If dropping coverage would really be horrible for their employees in terms of cost, it stands to reason they won't opt-out of coverage for the same reason they don't just drop their coverage right now.

The other major problem I see is that the cost of the plans is entirely assumed. Maybe the minimum plan will be incredibly expensive, but maybe not. Especially if the cost ends up getting out of control, I can definitely see limiting the scope of the minimum plan being an important approach to controlling costs.

I don't know. I think watching the cost will be extremely important, but I'm not sold on the effect being set in stone yet...especially not to the degree presented here.

 

[JD50]

wtf is wrong with nobodyknows?

 

[Zstream]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I see two major problems with the analysis presented in the article. The first is the assumption that ALL private employers will drop their health care offerings in favor of paying the payroll tax, even on higher income employees. The author of this article makes that assumption with no supporting argument, and it seems less than obvious to me why companies would do that. Part of being competitive is offering benefits to your employees, which is the reason most people making $90K per year have health insurance right now. If dropping coverage would really be horrible for their employees in terms of cost, it stands to reason they won't opt-out of coverage for the same reason they don't just drop their coverage right now.

So why would an employer not side government provided HC? You state it is being competitive in the marketplace. I just do not see that, if it becomes the norm then the competitiveness is lost. If you honestly think a company will not drop insurance at the first sign of government run HC then we just have a different thought process all together.

The reason why companies can achieve this goal right now is due to the current PRIVATE health insurance competitiveness. Why not just increase the competition by going nation wide? If people want major reform I believe they should be doing step by step process. Not a sweeping overhaul that we might regret five years down the road.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: JD50
wtf is wrong with nobodyknows?

:laugh:

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I see two major problems with the analysis presented in the article. The first is the assumption that ALL private employers will drop their health care offerings in favor of paying the payroll tax, even on higher income employees. The author of this article makes that assumption with no supporting argument, and it seems less than obvious to me why companies would do that. Part of being competitive is offering benefits to your employees, which is the reason most people making $90K per year have health insurance right now. If dropping coverage would really be horrible for their employees in terms of cost, it stands to reason they won't opt-out of coverage for the same reason they don't just drop their coverage right now.

The other major problem I see is that the cost of the plans is entirely assumed. Maybe the minimum plan will be incredibly expensive, but maybe not. Especially if the cost ends up getting out of control, I can definitely see limiting the scope of the minimum plan being an important approach to controlling costs.

I don't know. I think watching the cost will be extremely important, but I'm not sold on the effect being set in stone yet...especially not to the degree presented here.

Those, of course, are valid complaints arguing against the side in the article, and one frankly the author doesnt try to hide in his analysis:

I'm going to make a big but reasonable assumption: America's employers will choose to drop their coverage for employees. That's an option granted them under the legislation.

He thinks its a reasonable assumption employers WILL, while others, like yourself, think its a reasonable assumption that employers WONT. So whos right? We really dont know. But, purely from a numbers standpoint, it would make economical sense for employers to drop coverage and opt for the fine in lieu of thousands of dollars per employee back in the bank. Dont you think? Sure there are the few medium/small-ish companies whose board/
CEO/whoever will sit down and say "Hey, you know what? I want to do right by my employees. Im going to offer health insurance"; however, especially public companies whose bottom line means shareholder retention, there is ZERO benefit to fork out more money, when they dont have to.

Many on this board, and many congressmen/women have said they want to see employer based health coverage go away. This certainly is a step in that direction, no?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Man let me feel ya in what elderly are talking about . Doctors and Hospitals and how to make these bastards sorry suckers . The elderly are going to go after the medical community when push comes to shove . As I have told ya many times its going to get really really ugly . I wouldn't mind seeing doctors getting busted up at all the drug pushing thieves. They hurt My Son not help . They kinda helped hurt me . But more are saying they have done more harm than GOOD . 250,000 deaths a year threw errors . These clown way over paid . Take the high pay from the butchers

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Man let me feel ya in what elderly are talking about . Doctors and Hospitals and how to make these bastards sorry suckers . The elderly are going to go after the medical community when push comes to shove . As I have told ya many times its going to get really really ugly . I wouldn't mind seeing doctors getting busted up at all the drug pushing thieves. They hurt My Son not help . They kinda helped hurt me . But more are saying they have done more harm than GOOD . 250,000 deaths a year threw errors . These clown way over paid . Take the high pay from the butchers

wut

 

[TruePaige]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Man let me feel ya in what elderly are talking about . Doctors and Hospitals and how to make these bastards sorry suckers . The elderly are going to go after the medical community when push comes to shove . As I have told ya many times its going to get really really ugly . I wouldn't mind seeing doctors getting busted up at all the drug pushing thieves. They hurt My Son not help . They kinda helped hurt me . But more are saying they have done more harm than GOOD . 250,000 deaths a year threw errors . These clown way over paid . Take the high pay from the butchers

wut

He..doesn't make sense.