Obamacare's effect on the middle class

[Zstream]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Insurance companies need to be dismantled and we need full single payer. These scumbags need to be torn apart.

This is what you spout day after day after day. We need better handling of pre-existing conditions. But the insurance care many of us are getting is perfectly fine and will be better than what the government can ever provide us...

Wait until you lose your job, i wonder if you would feel the same way?

COBRA!

Get ready to pay $1900 a month. That's what my COBRA coverage would have been (this past NOV->AUG), if I had a wife and kids.

Luckily, I'm single and only had to pay $470 or so.

Night and day compared to the $50/month I was paying for the same coverage while I was employed.

I understand your point but I highly doubt it would cost 1900$. Obviously I have no way to refute the claim but that seems quite high. My mother, mind you is 55+ and would only pay 300$ a month for insurance.

The point though I assume you are making is that the unemployed have a higher cost to health care, is that correct?

Would you have a problem with paying 5-7% of your income towards HC regardless? That would be around 105$ for a 1500$ paycheck.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Unlike you, I don't lie.

:laughlease. stop it, your killing me:laugh:

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

It's not rocket science, anybody who claims they don't vote but spends all day posting theirn opinions on a stupid internet politifcal forum is obviously lying about something. You're only fooling yourself, but then that's not too hard to do.

In other words, you have no proof. What a joke. Again:

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

It is only "obvious" to a clueless tool like you. Again, if you can't answer the above bolded question, you have nothing and means you are lying. Let me repeat it again:

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

By definition, opinions cannot be lies unless they specifically state facts within them which are fabricated. Give it your best shot big guy. You don't have a thing and will respond with another "But....But....But...you're a <insert name>" quote, solidifying your status as a forum stooge second only to Mr. McOwned.

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: Athena

Originally posted by: ElFenix
our .gov is already spending more per capita than either the government of the UK or germany. why the fuck would tossing more money on the pile 'drive down costs?'

No, the "government" is not spending more per capita or as a percentage of GDP than those countries, our economy is. And there is evidence that building a national health care policy around private, for-profit insurance is a major factor for that fact.

I am 100% in favor of having a single health plan for every citizen in the country. There are different ways to accomplish that but what will not work, is to cling to a model that has driven us where we are now.

Actually, you are wrong. It's both. The US government pays out more, in terms of actual dollars and as a percentage of GDP, than every other country in the world. On top of that, Americans spend more money out of pocket than every other country in the world.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
(If I screwed the math up, anywhere, please correct me)

You screwed up in that the fat is the amount the insurance companies pay doctors. THAT is what needs to be cut. Not the HI executive pay, not the HI profits. Insurance companies can and must massively cut their expenses without dropping coverage. The goverment already pays far less in the form of medicare than most insurance companies for the same proceedures. The insurance companies need to do that too. That will require a complete overhaul of the insurance industry. The bulk will likely have to come from mergers to be more powerful in negotiations.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: spidey07
Marked before the moonbats start attacking the source of the research and totally dismissing the facts. These facts are coming from a PWC analysis.

You mean the facts that this estimate is based upon the fact that there is no public option to drive down costs?

Glad you now suppor the public option spidey. Do all conservatives feel this way? What are we fighting over? Welcome aboard!

No public option, no outrageous price increases and theft of your hard earned money to support deadbeats, just say no to socialism.

You are really suggesting that 30% of america is deadbeats?

Really?

Out of the people i know in college, about 1 in 5 are are returning to school because they lost their jobs. Many of those are non-traditional students and uninsured, are they deadbeats?

For that matter, is the education they are receiving through worker retraining programs through "the evil big government" also because they are deadbeats?

Should they be robbing convenience stores for bread or what?

Oh wait, that would put the deadbeats in the prison system costing you $80,000/year.

Support the public option and UHC, it's a cheaper alternative

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Please repeat the phrase "less than 2%" over and over to yourself until it fucking sinks in.

So it sounds like what you're saying is that in order to earn that measly 2%, the insurance industry's profit structure incentivizes screwing up the whole system

Wow, we really do need reform

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Unlike you, I don't lie.

:laughlease. stop it, your killing me:laugh:

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

It's not rocket science, anybody who claims they don't vote but spends all day posting theirn opinions on a stupid internet politifcal forum is obviously lying about something. You're only fooling yourself, but then that's not too hard to do.

In other words, you have no proof. What a joke. Again:

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

It is only "obvious" to a clueless tool like you. Again, if you can't answer the above bolded question, you have nothing and means you are lying. Let me repeat it again:

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

By definition, opinions cannot be lies unless they specifically state facts within them which are fabricated. Give it your best shot big guy. You don't have a thing and will respond with another "But....But....But...you're a <insert name>" quote, solidifying your status as a forum stooge second only to Mr. McOwned.

I don't need proof to call a liar a liar. If you want to get on a political forum and bitch about everything when you persoanly don't even bother to vote the be prepared to get called names. If you can't ake the heat then get out of the kitchen. It's a free country so deal with it.

The fact I'm sure you're a liar as I'm sure GWB is a liar. LOL

Game, set, match.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: blanghorst
By definition, opinions cannot be lies unless they specifically state facts within them which are fabricated.

not true. "I think George W. Bush is the worst president ever."

But if I don't really believe that, then my opinion is a lie.

/tangent

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

So, you don't respond to any of it.. and try to make it sound 1000% profit over 5 years while covering less people and denying rightful care for profit is not part of the problem.

if insurance company profit is such a huge problem then why does the US .gov pay more per capita than the UK or germany? sounds like we've got much bigger problems and insurance profit is a red herring

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
(If I screwed the math up, anywhere, please correct me)

You screwed up in that the fact is the amount the insurance companies pay doctors. THAT is what needs to be cut. Not the HI executive pay, not the HI profits.

Ummm, that was exactly my entire point, so thank you for reaffirming everything I wrote. :thumbsup:

How did I screw up again?

Insurance companies can and must massively cut their expenses without dropping coverage. The government already pays far less in the form of medicare than most insurance companies for the same procedures. The insurance companies need to do that too. That will require a complete overhaul of the insurance industry. The bulk will likely have to come from mergers to be more powerful in negotiations.

Well said. So, where is any/all of that in the current proposals?

Larger and more powerful HI companies are needed? Say it ain't so! :Q

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Please repeat the phrase "less than 2%" over and over to yourself until it fucking sinks in.

So it sounds like what you're saying is that in order to earn that measly 2%, the insurance industry's profit structure incentivizes screwing up the whole system

Wow, we really do need reform

I never said that we didn't. But, having tunnel-vision and obsessing with their salaries and meager profit margins, for the sake of simply sticking it to the evul rich, won't get us anywhere if the goal is to address the real problems.

And, using the 2008 numbers, it actually came to much much less than 2%... roughly 0.37% actually.

Originally posted by: ElFenix
if insurance company profit is such a huge problem then why does the US .gov pay more per capita than the UK or germany? sounds like we've got much bigger problems and insurance profit is a red herring

You are 100% correct my friend.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Ummm, that was exactly my entire point, so thank you for reaffirming everything I wrote. :thumbsup:

How did I screw up again?

Now I see it. You screwed up by thinking I was disagreeing with you. Reread my first post. The bulk was agreeing with you and giving what I thought was a fun (albiet irrelevant) example to back you up. I suppose P&N is conditioned to think that any quote is a signal for a disagreement. The only time I disagreed is when I said you are focussing too much on the profit side and need to keep your argument on the expense side. And that is a disagreement with your tactic, not your idea.

The health insurance industry can clean up this mess without much goverment involvement. But they'll have to be far stronger than they are now. They have to cut their expenses. They have to encourage good tests/proceedures while discouraging useless ones. They have to completely change their whole structure and system. That, for the most part, doesn't require government intervention. However, the HI industry ISN'T making those changes. That is why the goverment must step in.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan
Ummm, that was exactly my entire point, so thank you for reaffirming everything I wrote. :thumbsup:

How did I screw up again?

Now I see it. You screwed up by thinking I was disagreeing with you. Reread my first post. The bulk was agreeing with you and giving what I thought was a fun (albiet irrelevant) example to back you up. I suppose P&N is conditioned to think that any quote is a signal for a disagreement. The only time I disagreed is when I said you are focussing too much on the profit side and need to keep your argument on the expense side. And that is a disagreement with your tactic, not your idea.

The health insurance industry can clean up this mess without much goverment involvement. But they'll have to be far stronger than they are now. They have to cut their expenses. They have to encourage good tests/proceedures while discouraging useless ones. They have to completely change their whole structure and system. That, for the most part, doesn't require government intervention. However, the HI industry ISN'T making those changes. That is why the goverment must step in.

Cool, got it now. My bad. cheers! :beer:

But, referring to your last line... that's just it, the Government may be stepping in, but they're not addressing any of the right problems. They're screwing up the one opportunity they might ever have to get it right. When they demonized the entire HI industry, but then took the public option completely off the table, they ended up shooting themselves in the foot. IMO, they should have never demonized the HI industry, and the public option should have never been on the table. From the beginning, they should have focused on what is actually broken in the current system, and then designed whatever simple legislation they could to address a few very specific problems.

Simple regulation of the HI industry would have worked from day one. Instead, they went for it all, lost it, and can't ever again go back to square one.

So, here we are, facing legislation that will likely do much more harm than good. Ain't it cool?

 

[IndyColtsFan]

NM

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: blanghorst
By definition, opinions cannot be lies unless they specifically state facts within them which are fabricated.

not true. "I think George W. Bush is the worst president ever."

But if I don't really believe that, then my opinion is a lie.

/tangent

Yes, if you're lying stating one opinion as it is your own when you don't believe it, that is true.

Nobodyknows, on the other hand, is nothing but a blowhard. He accuses people of lying and is such a coward he can't back it up.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Unlike you, I don't lie.

:laughlease. stop it, your killing me:laugh:

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

It's not rocket science, anybody who claims they don't vote but spends all day posting theirn opinions on a stupid internet politifcal forum is obviously lying about something. You're only fooling yourself, but then that's not too hard to do.

In other words, you have no proof. What a joke. Again:

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

It is only "obvious" to a clueless tool like you. Again, if you can't answer the above bolded question, you have nothing and means you are lying. Let me repeat it again:

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

By definition, opinions cannot be lies unless they specifically state facts within them which are fabricated. Give it your best shot big guy. You don't have a thing and will respond with another "But....But....But...you're a <insert name>" quote, solidifying your status as a forum stooge second only to Mr. McOwned.

I don't need proof to call a liar a liar. If you want to get on a political forum and bitch about everything when you persoanly don't even bother to vote the be prepared to get called names. If you can't ake the heat then get out of the kitchen. It's a free country so deal with it.

The fact I'm sure you're a liar as I'm sure GWB is a liar. LOL

Game, set, match.

OK, time to put your money where your mouth is. Please document, with quotes and refuting sources, where I have lied.

Game, set, match. You can't prove a damn thing.

Where did i say I could prove anything? Oh that's right, i didn't/ Hell, using your simplisitic logic if I demand you prove your not lying and you can't, then obviously you are a liar.

DUHHHHH!!

 

[nobodyknows]

<yawn>

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Where did i say I could prove anything? Oh that's right, i didn't/ Hell, using your simplisitic logic if I demand you prove your not lying and you can't, then obviously you are a liar.

DUHHHHH!!

Sure, ask me to prove my opinions are the way I feel. I would be MORE than happy to do that. Good luck with that!

So you just admitted you can't prove anything and you're just name calling. Thank you, that was easy.

P.S. You're the one that started with the "you're a liar;" I merely asked for a simple answer on what I was lying about and for you to prove it was a lie. As the accuser, the impetus is on you to prove it.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Zstream

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Ausm


Most blue collar workers are used to getting shafted especially when it comes to health insurance.

What? Blue collar workers generally have some of the best insurance there is because employers need them healthy and strong. Look at any plan an auto manufacturer or large factory offer union and non. VERY good insurance.

Hey whatever your smoking...can you please pass it around?

Do you actually know of anyone working in an auto manufacturing plant? I doubt you do but that is ok. Insurance for auto workers and many other positions play a big role in the workplace.

I live practically next door to a GM plant. They have great insurance. They even have medical staff on site to take care of minor issues at not cost to the employee (I had one of the nurse's sons on my baseball team I was coaching). And it was always impossible to get a dental appointment when I wanted because they have such a good dental plan as well.

Ausm is just blowing smoke out of his ass.

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: Zstream

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Ausm


Most blue collar workers are used to getting shafted especially when it comes to health insurance.

What? Blue collar workers generally have some of the best insurance there is because employers need them healthy and strong. Look at any plan an auto manufacturer or large factory offer union and non. VERY good insurance.

Hey whatever your smoking...can you please pass it around?

Do you actually know of anyone working in an auto manufacturing plant? I doubt you do but that is ok. Insurance for auto workers and many other positions play a big role in the workplace.

I live practically next door to a GM plant. They have great insurance. They even have medical staff on site to take care of minor issues at not cost to the employee (I had one of the nurse's sons on my baseball team I was coaching). And it was always impossible to get a dental appointment when I wanted because they have such a good dental plan as well.

Ausm is just blowing smoke out of his ass.

These are all of the jobs being outsourced (the last figure was ~10% of US jobs)... How many companies in the service industry provide fantastic benefits? I'd wager it's at least 1/10th the status quo for manufacturing jobs.

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
click me!

look under "Per capita government expenditure on health at average exchange rate (US$) ?"

Germany 2790.0 2005
United Kingdom 2668.0 2005
United States of America 2862.0 2005

Thank you for the citation. That's an interesting set of figures. The governments of the UK and Germany spend less per capita and their systems cover 98+% of residents. In the US, everyone is paying more for a minority of the population (since Federal spending is limited to seniors, the poor, and the military). We are really getting a bad deal.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Athena
Thank you for the citation. That's an interesting set of figures. The governments of the UK and Germany spend less per capita and their systems cover 98+% of residents. In the US, everyone is paying more for a minority of the population (since Federal spending is limited to seniors, the poor, and the military). We are really getting a bad deal.

i think those figures include state spending as well (schip, mostly)

Originally posted by: dullard

The health insurance industry can clean up this mess without much goverment involvement. But they'll have to be far stronger than they are now. They have to cut their expenses. They have to encourage good tests/proceedures while discouraging useless ones. They have to completely change their whole structure and system. That, for the most part, doesn't require government intervention. However, the HI industry ISN'T making those changes. That is why the goverment must step in.

afaik, kaiser has been doing a fantastic job of doing exactly that.

and of course when they deny something that the statistics says isn't going to work any better, but the patient's doctor says is going to work, we get cries that the insurance company is denying needed care and a lawsuit. damned if you do....

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: TheSkinsFan

Originally posted by: Ausm
Sure it will!! What's the problem with the Insurance companies raping everyone raw and laughing all the way to the bank? I really don't see how a 400% increase in profits in the last ten years would do this.

That's a bullshit number by the way. In order to put that increase in perspective, you'd have to take into account the fact that average HI profit margins are still only sitting at roughly 3 to 5%. Where's all that money going from the supposed 400% increase? It sure as hell isn't present in their actual profit margins, or in their salaries which are already factored into those profit margins, so it must be being spent somewhere... on something. One must conclude that overhead for the HI has also risen almost 400%. So, perhaps it's the costs to the HI companies that might be a problem? hmm...

The fact is that HI profits account for less than 2% of the total U.S. expenditures on healthcare. That bears repeating: HI profits account for less than 2% of the total U.S. expenditures on healthcare!

Any 5th-grader could deduce that the real problem must lie elsewhere. hmm...

If you truly want to address the issue and fix the actual problems, you'd first have to acknowledge the above. The problem, for too many of you, is that these facts get in the way of most of your rhetoric -- you just gotta have your fall-guy or boogieman, don't ya?

Oh yeah? I was technically right until the recession hit...

Suck on this...

http://www.politifact.com/trut...er-profits-have-risen/

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Where did i say I could prove anything? Oh that's right, i didn't/ Hell, using your simplisitic logic if I demand you prove your not lying and you can't, then obviously you are a liar.

DUHHHHH!!

Sure, ask me to prove my opinions are the way I feel. I would be MORE than happy to do that. Good luck with that!

So you just admitted you can't prove anything and you're just name calling. Thank you, that was easy.

P.S. You're the one that started with the "you're a liar;" I merely asked for a simple answer on what I was lying about and for you to prove it was a lie. As the accuser, the impetus is on you to prove it.

I can call you a liar anytime I want, deal with it. This isn't a court of law so unless you're going to sue me there isn't anything you can do about it. I'll say it again, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

I'm sure you are lying about not voting. I realize it's tough to admit you voted for Bush (twice?), but denial is not going to help you come to terms with your problems.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Where did i say I could prove anything? Oh that's right, i didn't/ Hell, using your simplisitic logic if I demand you prove your not lying and you can't, then obviously you are a liar.

DUHHHHH!!

Sure, ask me to prove my opinions are the way I feel. I would be MORE than happy to do that. Good luck with that!

So you just admitted you can't prove anything and you're just name calling. Thank you, that was easy.

P.S. You're the one that started with the "you're a liar;" I merely asked for a simple answer on what I was lying about and for you to prove it was a lie. As the accuser, the impetus is on you to prove it.

I can call you a liar anytime I want, deal with it. This isn't a court of law so unless you're going to sue me there isn't anything you can do about it. I'll say it again, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

I'm sure you are lying about not voting. I realize it's tough to admit you voted for Bush (twice?), but denial is not going to help you come to terms with your problems.

^ Is there a minimum age required to post here?