Obamacare: Gruber admitted it might not be affordable

[Zorkorist]

Loan me a fifty, Berzerker?

I'll pay ya back. I just got to get the monkey off my back, ya know.

-John

 

[boomerang]

I'm a long term forum veteran, and I have had my mind changed, on some occasions, and broadened on many. I don't say it often, as there isn't much cause to, but I enjoy talking to everyone here, and enjoy the atmosphere of the forum, with its give and take.

There are those that will not ever change (or one would think) but there are also those that listen to arguments, and might change, based on those arguments, and other things we do, in AT Politics and News.

-John

Broadened, as you said, might be a better way to phrase it than how I did. Bringing facts to light that tempers ones views might be another way to phrase it. But ideology, or philosophy no, I don't see that happening at all. This form of human interaction is too impersonal to accomplish anything along those lines.

So, when I referred to minds being changed, that is what I was truly referring to. I worded it inadequately.

 

[boomerang]

Good, if you can't afford health care and my tax dollars can help than I hope that they do. That's called being a human being.

For real, consider for just a minute that lots of us are happy to pay taxes. We like helping other people who need our help, and think that being grateful and sacrificing some of our wealth for the less fortunate is a good thing. And we're rational enough to understand that a few anecdotes of waste or fraud don't invalidate the vast majority of cases.

Have you considered the potential end results of a overwhelming majority of people that think like you do? If you see that as a utopia of sorts stop reading now and skip ahead in the thread. Your views must be tempered by the opposing viewpoint or we will all end up poor and in poor health. We have only to look at history to know this. It didn't work before and it is not going to work this time either.

Your statement of " a few anecdotes of waste and fraud" tells me all I need to know. You are unwilling to face reality. You choose to go through life purposefully unaware of the pitfalls of unbridled spending through unrestrained taxation. Hoping it's all going to work out doesn't cut it.

 

[IGBT]

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-inte...roy-the-very-health-and-wellbeing-of-workers/


Dear Leader Reid and Leader Pelosi:

When you and the President sought our support for the Affordable Care Act (ACA), you pledged that if we liked the health plans we have now, we could keep them. Sadly, that promise is under threat. Right now, unless you and the Obama Administration enact an equitable fix, the ACA will shatter not only our hard-earned health benefits, but destroy the foundation of the 40 hour work week that is the backbone of the American middle class.

Like millions of other Americans, our members are front-line workers in the American economy. We have been strong supporters of the notion that all Americans should have access to quality, affordable health care. We have also been strong supporters of you. In campaign after campaign we have put boots on the ground, gone door-to-door to get out the vote, run phone banks and raised money to secure this vision.

Now this vision has come back to haunt us.

 

[ivwshane]

Lol! Not only is the above poster incapable of providing a comment and a point to his post but apparently he doesn't know what year it is.

 

[boomerang]

Harvard faculty up in arms that they have to participate in Obamacare

Good for thee but not for me. LOL!

 

[ivwshane]

Harvard faculty up in arms that they have to participate in Obamacare

Good for thee but not for me. LOL!

I love stories like these! It only helps push the country to socialized health care.

 

[OverVolt]

I have a NYT subsciption... so I already saw

It made my day thats for sure. I'm not surprised they reacted that way to their amazing new health plans!

 

[werepossum]

That's exactly what I was thinking. The closest thing we have to a good example of how things will ultimately fold for obamacare is our public education. It will continue to get more and more expensive, it will vastly expand government control and influence into everyone's life, and will ultimately produce lousy results.

Thanks for the links Fern. Not an eye opener by any means, it just sheds more light on the lies that were sold to the public. Only a truly naive or stupid person actually believed there was going to be any actual reduction in cost of healthcare.

Probably, but with a few caveats. Only a complete idiot could believe that we can insure ~18% more people and have costs go down, so most of us knew that was a lie at the time, but there are costs and there are costs. Say an uninsured person over his lifetime costs $40k in emergency room and doc-in-the-box care and then $250k in end-of-life care for cancer caught in stage 4. If that same person now costs $240k in insurance and routine care and then $80k in care for cancer caught in stage 1, society has spent more overall, but that person also has a longer productive life. Obviously I don't know the reasonably expected average cost and productivity here (no one does, even if they have multiple studies) but total health care & insurance costs alone don't tell the whole story.

I don't like Obamacare; it is not my preferred way of doing things. It doesn't just magically produce more winners, it changes some losers into winners and changes some winners into losers, like any government program. Indeed, like any significant societal change. But it's here, and we've already suffered the significant pains of its botched implementation with more pain to go as more of it is implemented. I'm open to replacing it, but its replacement should be demonstrated to be better in real life (by implementation in one or more states over at least five years) before we abandon it. And I say that as someone who has been harmed by Obamacare, though admittedly not to the extent many have been. I'd rather take my now-crappier but more expensive health care (including insurance costs) than just revert to what we had before.

I hope we can do better, but let's not get sold a second bogus set of promises just because they issue from the other side of the aisle.

 

[Zorkorist]

I read the other day that President Obama postponed the most onerous aspects of the ACA until after this years election. (I was wondering why my healthcare costs didn't rise.)

So, here we go.

Obama doesn't give a shit (lame duck), and next years (mandatory, socialist) insurance is going to be crazy high.

-John

 

[Bowfinger]

I have a NYT subsciption... so I already saw

It made my day thats for sure. I'm not surprised they reacted that way to their amazing new health plans!

Did any of you actually read the NYT article? If so, you might note that they weren't complaining about "new health plans" or about "participating" in Obamacare. They were complaining about their employer passing on a portion of increasing health insurance costs. This, of course, is the same thing most of America has been complaining about for the last decade or two. (That's long before Obamacare began, for those who struggle with arithmetic.)


Speaking of reading, I'm also curious how many people actually read Gruber's paper. It's a fairly short paper, yet it provides a well-balanced review of the challenges with implementing health care reforms. How can we offer a solution that actually helps Americans while making it through a Congress beholden to the industry's deep pockets? I found his analysis and reasoning quite interesting.

This is why the initial version of the ACA does so little to control costs. In Gruber's view, cost control provisions killed previous attempts to pass such legislation because of pressure from industry interests fearing reduced profits. It is much easier to add such cost control measures once the initial legislation is in place. Hard to argue with that logic.

 

[Zorkorist]

New York Times is behind a paywall. I never read their crap.

Regarding Gruber, and Socialized Medicine, I may be amazed at how he and Obama got it through, but right now I don't care. It's through.

-John

 

[Bowfinger]

New York Times is behind a paywall.

No.

I never read their crap.

Which is why you're such a consistent source of ignorance here.

 

[cabri]

Did any of you actually read the NYT article? If so, you might note that they weren't complaining about "new health plans" or about "participating" in Obamacare. They were complaining about their employer passing on a portion of increasing health insurance costs. This, of course, is the same thing most of America has been complaining about for the last decade or two. (That's long before Obamacare began, for those who struggle with arithmetic.)


Speaking of reading, I'm also curious how many people actually read Gruber's paper. It's a fairly short paper, yet it provides a well-balanced review of the challenges with implementing health care reforms. How can we offer a solution that actually helps Americans while making it through a Congress beholden to the industry's deep pockets? I found his analysis and reasoning quite interesting.

This is why the initial version of the ACA does so little to control costs. In Gruber's view, cost control provisions killed previous attempts to pass such legislation because of pressure from industry interests fearing reduced profits. It is much easier to add such cost control measures once the initial legislation is in place. Hard to argue with that logic.

The Harvard group is complaining about the costs to the participants;
Much is being driven by the additional costs that ObamaCare is forcing on the employer.

And because the employer is passing on some of those costs to the employee; there is dissent in the ranks.

The employees wanted reform but also keep their Cadillac plan. Now they time to pay the piper has happened, it has become an eye opener.

All those TBDs that the liberals wanted in place to get the monstrosity passed are being filled in and now they are seeing what many opponents feared; "need to pass it to see what is in it"

 

[Newell Steamer]

Excerpts from one of his papers/presentations in 2009:

,.. because the Right learned to read well over a 1/2 decade later.

 

[fskimospy]

I have a NYT subsciption... so I already saw

It made my day thats for sure. I'm not surprised they reacted that way to their amazing new health plans!

What's funny is that the things they are complaining about, primarily increased cost sharing, are EXACTLY the sort of reforms that conservatives think we should be implementing.

It seems odd for conservatives to revel in people complaining about things that they themselves think are good ideas. That is unless it's because they don't care what the complaint is so long as the target is the Evil Obamacare.

 

[Newell Steamer]

That is unless it's because they don't care what the complaint is so long as the target is the Evil Obamacare.

 

[sactoking]

What's funny is that the things they are complaining about, primarily increased cost sharing, are EXACTLY the sort of reforms that conservatives think we should be implementing.

It seems odd for conservatives to revel in people complaining about things that they themselves think are good ideas. That is unless it's because they don't care what the complaint is so long as the target is the Evil Obamacare.

I think you're missing the irony. The irony isn't that conservatives are reveling in people complaining about things that they (the conservatives) think are good ideas. The irony is that the Harvard establishment, the same establishment that backed many of the theories behind the ACA, the same establishment that contributes to the rising cost of healthcare through massively expensive research hospitals, the same establishment that has espoused reductions in cost controls because someone else can pay for it, is finding out that the hen came home to roost.

 

[OverVolt]

I think you're missing the irony. The irony isn't that conservatives are reveling in people complaining about things that they (the conservatives) think are good ideas. The irony is that the Harvard establishment, the same establishment that backed many of the theories behind the ACA, the same establishment that contributes to the rising cost of healthcare through massively expensive research hospitals, the same establishment that has espoused reductions in cost controls because someone else can pay for it, is finding out that the hen came home to roost.

Mmmhmm I make probably 1/3rd what they do I'm sure and I'm "cost sharing" more like +$2,000 in my deductibles instead of +$400 and they are already crying bloody murder apparently. Its easier to spend other peoples money I suppose. They should research that phenomenon next.

 

[Bowfinger]

The Harvard group is complaining about the costs to the participants;
Much is being driven by the additional costs that ObamaCare is forcing on the employer.

Not even Harvard is claiming that "much" of the increase is due to the ACA, only that it contributed. Given that health care costs have been skyrocketing for decades, and that recent increases are in line with historical trends, it is disingenuous to insinuate the ACA is a major driver. Yes, it contributes, but it is only one factor, and not a primary cause.

And because the employer is passing on some of those costs to the employee; there is dissent in the ranks.

Which is what I said. Other employees at other employers have been complaining about this for a long, long time. Harvard is simply catching up to much of the rest of the business world. Again, this is not an Obamacare issue.

The employees wanted reform but also keep their Cadillac plan. Now they time to pay the piper has happened, it has become an eye opener.

All those TBDs that the liberals wanted in place to get the monstrosity passed are being filled in and now they are seeing what many opponents feared; "need to pass it to see what is in it"

Yawn. Empty talking points are boring. Our health care system was horribly broken. Given that we don't have a time machine or a magic reset button to return us to the supposed good old days of cheap health care, the smart question remains how do we fix it.

For all of its problems, the ACA was a modest attempt to move forward. The ACA very much needs to be improved, but it's better than the nothing the GOP offers. When they offer a real alternative at the national level, perhaps they will then have standing to throw stones. As long as all they can do is whine, however, they should sit down, shut up, and get out of the way of those who are trying to advance.

 

[OverVolt]

Not even Harvard is claiming that "much" of the increase is due to the ACA, only that it contributed. Given that health care costs have been skyrocketing for decades, and that recent increases are in line with historical trends, it is disingenuous to insinuate the ACA is a major driver. Yes, it contributes, but it is only one factor, and not a primary cause.



Which is what I said. Other employees at other employers have been complaining about this for a long, long time. Harvard is simply catching up to much of the rest of the business world. Again, this is not an Obamacare issue.



Yawn. Empty talking points are boring. Our health care system was horribly broken. Given that we don't have a time machine or a magic reset button to return us to the supposed good old days of cheap health care, the smart question remains how do we fix it.

For all of its problems, the ACA was a modest attempt to move forward. The ACA very much needs to be improved, but it's better than the nothing the GOP offers. When they offer a real alternative at the national level, perhaps they will then have standing to throw stones. As long as all they can do is whine, however, they should sit down, shut up, and get out of the way of those who are trying to advance.

This year in terms of coinsurance and higher deductibles as part of the "Cost sharing" it is indeed directly caused by the ACA if you know anything about the law.

Simple question, did your deductibles go up and was there a poorly worded "wellness questionnaire?" to save on premiums (IE "do you drink?" or "Did you smoke and then quit? Congratulations you now pay less!" Or my favorite "Are you male?... next question... Are you pregnant?")

Both are part of the ACA.

 

[Bowfinger]

This year in terms of coinsurance and higher deductibles as part of the "Cost sharing" it is indeed directly caused by the ACA if you know anything about the law.

Simple question, did your deductibles go up and was there a poorly worded "wellness questionnaire?" to save on premiums (IE "do you drink?" or "Did you smoke and then quit? Congratulations you now pay less!" Or my favorite "Are you male?... next question... Are you pregnant?")

Both are part of the ACA.

Yet somehow my employer instituted both higher cost sharing and a coercive "wellness" program some seven or eight years ago. It's all the rage among Fortune 500 HR departments, and has been for a long time. My previous employer increased cost sharing every year some 15 years ago, and we were discussing adding a wellness program or other cost containment programs. News flash: companies are always looking for ways to cut expenses and increase profits.

So again, yes the ACA is a contributor. No, it is not the primary driver.

 

[boomerang]

Or my favorite "Are you male?... next question... Are you pregnant?")

They have to ask that now because gender is fluid. One day you can be this and the next day you can be that. So in a progressive nation like ours, both males and females can be pregnant.

Get with the times.

[/s]

 

[fskimospy]

I think you're missing the irony. The irony isn't that conservatives are reveling in people complaining about things that they (the conservatives) think are good ideas. The irony is that the Harvard establishment, the same establishment that backed many of the theories behind the ACA, the same establishment that contributes to the rising cost of healthcare through massively expensive research hospitals, the same establishment that has espoused reductions in cost controls because someone else can pay for it, is finding out that the hen came home to roost.

Oh there's irony there too, I agree!

That doesn't change the irony present when conservatives complain that the ACA is the Worst Thing Evar when because of it something is happening that they want to happen but that people don't like.

 

[OverVolt]

Oh there's irony there too, I agree!

That doesn't change the irony present when conservatives complain that the ACA is the Worst Thing Evar when because of it something is happening that they want to happen but that people don't like.

Hey it motivated me to quit my job without insurance and I have two FT job offers. Screw that shit plan. I'll be on employer insurance by February. I still have the feels for anyone in my old situation.

You have any idea how many people are trying to hobble a career out of two part time jobs and probably make exactly as much as I made last year? A shit load. I only had to do it for a year. I was able to extend my plan last year. Screw ya'll I got mines! I guess.