Obamacare: Gruber admitted it might not be affordable

[Engineer]

At a much lower price and part of it while being paid by the taxpayers while in the military.

If you were in the military (do they not pay the Medicare part of FICA?), you earned your future care. Better hope that some dame fiscal conservative politicians don't try to strip it from you.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Oh bullshit. It costs 2.5 times per capita in the US vs what the rest of the industrialized world costs for healthcare and we don't even cover all of our people vs the rest of the world that does. If they can offer to everyone at those prices, we can do it near them too. And I don't want to hear that shit about everyone here can get care. It's bullshit. The ER is NOT care. It's for emergencies, not cancer.

Let me guess you are an engineer who gets your knowledge by reading the internet. I suppose I can build a bridge by reading wiki.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Deleted, understanding reached

 

[fskimospy]

Basically more on how we were lied to to get this passed.

Obamacare wasn't designed, nor expected, to save money/reduce costs. Excerpts from one of his papers/presentations in 2009:


https://www.maxwell.syr.edu/uploadedFiles/cpr/events/cpr_lectures/pb41.pdf

If you want to read a summary/article just go here (note: it's a Daily Caller article I saw on this site):

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...acare-will-not-be-affordable/?intcmp=trending

Fern

Uhmmmm, there's more in the bill than just those things, including a bunch of things specifically designed to save money and make health care more affordable.

You guys seriously don't even know what the thing is that you hate so much, do you?

 

[Matt1970]

Oh bullshit. It costs 2.5 times per capita in the US vs what the rest of the industrialized world costs for healthcare and we don't even cover all of our people vs the rest of the world that does. If they can offer to everyone at those prices, we can do it near them too. And I don't want to hear that shit about everyone here can get care. It's bullshit. The ER is NOT care. It's for emergencies, not cancer.

All you need to do is look at what we have done to education to get a good idea of what our costs are going to do under universal healthcare.

 

[Engineer]

Removed

 

[Matt1970]

Ah hell, what was I thinking. You and HR are right. We need to just get rid of subsidized care (Obamacare) and go back to the way we were. All will be just fine in the long run. I'm sure that those that want care can easily get it...they are just living healthy young lifestyles and saving money.

All is well...carry on.

I never said that. I just want to see people be honest selling this stuff to the public.

 

[Engineer]

Removed

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Ah hell, what was I thinking. You and HR are right. We need to just get rid of subsidized care (Obamacare) and go back to the way we were. All will be just fine in the long run. I'm sure that those that want care can easily get it...they are just living healthy young lifestyles and saving money.

All is well...carry on.

You can't even read what I posted without losing your ability to think. That's not my post, that's your failure to take a second to think about what I said.

First, the governments not understanding health care.
Properly implemented, information technologies WILL save money. It will require MORE investment that Obamacare (which I didn't mention if you paid any attention to before losing all objectivity). Even as it stands better and more timely information in hospitals will save lives and improve overall outcomes. That in itself provides reductions in disability payments, workman's compensation and therefore people become a revenue source from taxes instead of being a sink in terms of money.
TL;DR answer. Improving information technology combined with proper use WILL save money.

Hired guns-
Gruber doesn't get it. See #1

The general public.

Here's a good example.

Oh bullshit. It costs 2.5 times per capita in the US vs what the rest of the industrialized world costs for healthcare and we don't even cover all of our people vs the rest of the world that does. If they can offer to everyone at those prices, we can do it near them too. And I don't want to hear that shit about everyone here can get care. It's bullshit. The ER is NOT care. It's for emergencies, not cancer.

None of this addresses a single thing I was talking about. Nothing. It demonstrates a complete lack of understanding beyond Fox News level, a prejudice to remain uninformed and assumes that by quoting "2.5" an comprehension of what health care is to begin with. A 1950's system is replaced by the 1970's version to be implemented in the 21st century as the nee plus ultra of all possible systems. A complete rejection of the possibility to make something even better than exists now. A presentation of total ignorance of how any system works in the real world, but knows aggregate expensed comparing one system from nations culturally less complicated, physically smaller, geographically diverse, than what is generally found elsewhere. No understanding of medicine itself and how it should be practiced, but "2.5" replaces quality of care and how to go about getting what is better and less expensive here. Then we fall back on things I never even said like ERs and "everyone can get care" things I never argued for.

That's the public for you.

Edit- engineer and I are good and understand each other. I leave the post otherwise intact as there are non personal concerns which I believe are valid.

 

[Engineer]

I already conceded and even removed the offending posts. You want more?

 

[Matt1970]

Nah, it's OK. I concede. We should have just kept the status quo and would have been just fine.

Just have just followed the motto: Keep on Keeping On....

Once the ACA is struck down by the SC (and it will), we can get back to the great system we had before. I can't wait.

So that's the attitude? If we aren't allowed to lie to sell a bill, we shouldn't even try? And they wonder why people don't trust government.

"Under universal healthcare, you can keep your doctor, your hospital, and costs will go down. And THIS time we mean it"

Wouldn't you rather people be honest about it to begin with? Or is the status quo you speak of to lie to sell a bill and just do damage control afterwards?

 

[Engineer]

So that's the attitude? If we aren't allowed to lie to sell a bill, we shouldn't even try? And they wonder why people don't trust government.

"Under universal healthcare, you can keep your doctor, your hospital, and costs will go down. And THIS time we mean it"

Wouldn't you rather people be honest about it to begin with? Or is the status quo you speak of to lie to sell a bill and just do damage control afterwards?

I conceded and removed that post. Would you like more too?

 

[Matt1970]

I conceded and removed that post. Would you like more too?

Fair enough.

 

[Engineer]

Hey, I apologize to both of you guys. I came in a bad mood, didn't read anything other than a few things that 'caught' my eyes (without looking at context) and started blasting while stuck on full stupid. Sorry about that gentlemen. I'll try not to let it happen again.

I really, really, really need to just block P&N from the forums and my life in general. I would be better off just letting things happen and not worrying about any of it. Not like any of us have a single bit of influence over anything that happens anyway. Might be a good new year resolution.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Hey, I apologize to both of you guys. I came in a bad mood, didn't read anything other than a few things that 'caught' my eyes (without looking at context) and started blasting while stuck on full stupid. Sorry about that gentlemen. I'll try not to let it happen again.

I really, really, really need to just block P&N from the forums and my life in general. I would be better off just letting things happen and not worrying about any of it. Not like any of us have a single bit of influence over anything that happens anyway. Might be a good new year resolution.

Shit dude, if that's the worst that happens we're all doing good. No harm no foul as far as I'm concerned. Believe me I can't throw stones

 

[theeedude]

Gruber is making some good points, unlike the reflexive Obamacare bashers.

 

[Matt1970]

Hey, I apologize to both of you guys. I came in a bad mood, didn't read anything other than a few things that 'caught' my eyes (without looking at context) and started blasting while stuck on full stupid. Sorry about that gentlemen. I'll try not to let it happen again.

I really, really, really need to just block P&N from the forums and my life in general. I would be better off just letting things happen and not worrying about any of it. Not like any of us have a single bit of influence over anything that happens anyway. Might be a good new year resolution.

I will take you stuck on stupid over a lot of posters in here any day.

 

[boomerang]

I really, really, really need to just block P&N from the forums and my life in general. I would be better off just letting things happen and not worrying about any of it. Not like any of us have a single bit of influence over anything that happens anyway. Might be a good new year resolution.

I truly believe there is something to be said for going through life blissfully unaware. The problem lies in that mode of thinking becoming too commonplace. A percentage of people need to be aware and need to get fired up or we will just hasten our demise.

I've taken a self imposed month long break from the forums before. It clears my head. This mode of interaction is addicting and I often feel it's an unhealthy one. I start an occasional thread, I post what's on my mind and more often than not I choose not to interact with any responses I get. We've pretty much all got each other figured out at this point. I can't be alone in being able to read a thread title, see who made it and determine where it's going to go and maybe even where it will end. We get the occasional poster that talks about changing minds here. That always gives me a laugh.

Be serious in your thoughts and desires along political lines but give up on accomplishing anything here. It's not the correct venue. Try to see this as entertainment because that's really the only value in this forum. It's OT, but about politics. Taking it all too seriously is a mistake - IMO.

 

[OverVolt]

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[OverVolt]

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[Double Trouble]

All you need to do is look at what we have done to education to get a good idea of what our costs are going to do under universal healthcare.

That's exactly what I was thinking. The closest thing we have to a good example of how things will ultimately fold for obamacare is our public education. It will continue to get more and more expensive, it will vastly expand government control and influence into everyone's life, and will ultimately produce lousy results.

Thanks for the links Fern. Not an eye opener by any means, it just sheds more light on the lies that were sold to the public. Only a truly naive or stupid person actually believed there was going to be any actual reduction in cost of healthcare.

 

[Double Trouble]

Or is the status quo you speak of to lie to sell a bill and just do damage control afterwards?

Trust me, politicians on both sides of the political divide long ago figured out that it is much more lucrative to lie and then do damage control later than it is to do what's right. We as the voting public have proven it time and again. I think one side gets away with it a little more than the other because of the media leaning to that side, but overall both sides do the same thing.

 

[Zorkorist]

I truly believe there is something to be said for going through life blissfully unaware. The problem lies in that mode of thinking becoming too commonplace. A percentage of people need to be aware and need to get fired up or we will just hasten our demise.

I've taken a self imposed month long break from the forums before. It clears my head. This mode of interaction is addicting and I often feel it's an unhealthy one. I start an occasional thread, I post what's on my mind and more often than not I choose not to interact with any responses I get. We've pretty much all got each other figured out at this point. I can't be alone in being able to read a thread title, see who made it and determine where it's going to go and maybe even where it will end. We get the occasional poster that talks about changing minds here. That always gives me a laugh.

Be serious in your thoughts and desires along political lines but give up on accomplishing anything here. It's not the correct venue. Try to see this as entertainment because that's really the only value in this forum. It's OT, but about politics. Taking it all too seriously is a mistake - IMO.

I'm a long term forum veteran, and I have had my mind changed, on some occasions, and broadened on many. I don't say it often, as there isn't much cause to, but I enjoy talking to everyone here, and enjoy the atmosphere of the forum, with its give and take.

There are those that will not ever change (or one would think) but there are also those that listen to arguments, and might change, based on those arguments, and other things we do, in AT Politics and News.

-John

 

[Double Trouble]

I'm a long term forum veteran, and I have had my mind changed, on some occasions, and broadened on many. I don't say it often, as there isn't much cause to, but I enjoy talking to everyone here, and enjoy the atmosphere of the forum, with its give and take.

I've been here since Anand first started out with the geocities site, and I agree. In the midst of all the jackasses producing noise, there is actually good information and some good arguments. I've certainly changed my mind plenty of times after reading compelling arguments for a point of view different than mine. Sadly, many, even very smart people, are incapable of seeing other views and changing theirs. They are simply locked into their view, no matter what.

 

[berzerker60]

I don't care if it upsets you or not, it just does my heart well to know people like you will be there to foot the bill so I don't.

Good, if you can't afford health care and my tax dollars can help than I hope that they do. That's called being a human being.

For real, consider for just a minute that lots of us are happy to pay taxes. We like helping other people who need our help, and think that being grateful and sacrificing some of our wealth for the less fortunate is a good thing. And we're rational enough to understand that a few anecdotes of waste or fraud don't invalidate the vast majority of cases.