Obama wants you to learn code

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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
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I find it hard to compare what I would be like as a kid today instead of the 80's. Would I be interested in learning how to create my own computer programs on a typical PC of today as I was on a C64? Would I be completely distracted by the millions of things to play with on the internet?

you could use the 64 just fine without having to learn to code, you just loaded programs and off you went. What was the spark then? At the time, home PC's were still emerging from the hobbyist space and into the consumer space. So a lot more of the literature around computers revolved around DIY type projects.

But even away from the PC, I was the kind of kid who took things apart, modified them, fixed them, or broke them even worse. Surely kids today who are the take-it-apart mindset look at a computer and think "how can I make something of my own?", "what's under the hood?", or simply just "how does it work?"

I don't think a lot of people realize they can make their computers do tricks. Computers are sold as appliances, and that thought process is encouraged by just about every online service, and proprietary software dev. It isn't magic, and even basic skills can make your life easier, but people should be made aware that it's possible.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,586
82
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www.bing.com
I don't think a lot of people realize they can make their computers do tricks. Computers are sold as appliances, and that thought process is encouraged by just about every online service, and proprietary software dev. It isn't magic, and even basic skills can make your life easier, but people should be made aware that it's possible.

My dad's stereo was sold as an appliance, that didn't stop me from taking it apart and playing with all the components.

How hard it is nowadays to google "how to...." right after you look at something and wonder how it works
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,003
10,495
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My dad's stereo was sold as an appliance, that didn't stop me from taking it apart and playing with all the components.

How hard it is nowadays to google "how to...." right after you look at something and wonder how it works

That's you and me. Other people treat appliances as disposable, and you get what you get. A computer isn't an appliance though. It's meant to be tweaked, and adjusted to the individual. People just need to recognize that, and be encouraged to try.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,586
82
91
www.bing.com
That's you and me. Other people treat appliances as disposable, and you get what you get. A computer isn't an appliance though. It's meant to be tweaked, and adjusted to the individual. People just need to recognize that, and be encouraged to try.

I'm all for encouraging curiosity. But isn't it already inherent in a good number of kids? A whole generation of coders emerged from curiosity, no one encouraged them to learn computers, they just did because they were intrigued by them.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,003
10,495
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I'm all for encouraging curiosity. But isn't it already inherent in a good number of kids? A whole generation of coders emerged from curiosity, no one encouraged them to learn computers, they just did because they were intrigued by them.

Things were less "official" back in the day. There wasn't as much available, and many computers gave you fat books that taught you how to do things yourself. Now, almost everything you want is available, even if it isn't exactly what you want. People get used to having things handed to them, and don't consider doing it themselves. Sometimes things only require a minor tweak, but they're stopped by obfuscated settings, and closed source code. Writing a whole new music player is pretty ambitious, and off putting, when all you want to do is change the menu bar.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
14
81
www.markbetz.net
What was the spark then? At the time, home PC's were still emerging from the hobbyist space and into the consumer space. So a lot more of the literature around computers revolved around DIY type projects

You know it was probably that they were just so new and mysterious. Some kinds of people were bound to want to know what was going on inside, and there wasn't much of a barrier between that impulse and at least scratching the surface.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,586
82
91
www.bing.com
You know it was probably that they were just so new and mysterious. Some kinds of people were bound to want to know what was going on inside, and there wasn't much of a barrier between that impulse and at least scratching the surface.

Is there a barrier now? I mean, friggin Google!
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,003
10,495
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ya, you're gonna have to explain that one. Encouraged?

People are encouraged not to think, and to not change their software. It's enforced by closed source code, and now locked bootloaders. They're trying to get away from local software all together. "Just let us do your computing for you. You can pay with money, or identity. You don't even have to think about it". You get people here, who should know better, complaining about a webmail interface, Everything's abstracted away from the user, and even simple things like config files are hidden away.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,586
82
91
www.bing.com
People are encouraged not to think, and to not change their software. It's enforced by closed source code, and now locked bootloaders. They're trying to get away from local software all together. "Just let us do your computing for you. You can pay with money, or identity. You don't even have to think about it". You get people here, who should know better, complaining about a webmail interface, Everything's abstracted away from the user, and even simple things like config files are hidden away.

Are you saying closed source is a new thing? All the games on the C64 (with a few exceptions) were compiled to assembly.

The whole "encouraged not to think" line reeks of tin foil hat conspiracy theory.
 

Markbnj

Elite Member <br>Moderator Emeritus
Moderator
Sep 16, 2005
15,682
14
81
www.markbetz.net
Is there a barrier now? I mean, friggin Google!

No, there isn't much of one, I agree. It might simply be that the technology has become that much more commonplace, and the approaches to it more formalized. I mean, there are obviously a lot more programmers than when I started, but at the same time the demand for software skills has increased as well. The bottom line may be that there will never be more than a small subset of people who find this stuff interesting and have an aptitude for it.

I've often said jokingly that if programmers weren't mostly introverted geeks we could form a medieval guild and rule the world.

Non-jokingly, a free economy has a way of growing around obstructions like this. It's interesting to think about what technology could make programmers less important in software. It would have to be something that does away with the whole step-wise, algebraic approach to decomposing problems, and involves some sort of layer that can understand what needs to be done, and then employ resources to do it.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,003
10,495
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Are you saying closed source is a new thing? All the games on the C64 (with a few exceptions) were compiled to assembly.

The whole "encouraged not to think" line reeks of tin foil hat conspiracy theory.

You had to make your stuff with a C64. Nobody made it for you. I never had one, but my Atari came with a couple big books that taught me how to do things myself. Today, if you're lucky, you get a sheet of paper that tells to how to operate the power button.

Dumb users make companies money. They're guided to specific software packages, and taught to do things one specific way. That locks them into the software, hopefully forever in the company's opinion. A thinking user is a company's greatest enemy, and they'll do everything they can to keep that from happening.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,586
82
91
www.bing.com
You had to make your stuff with a C64. Nobody made it for you. I never had one, but my Atari came with a couple big books that taught me how to do things myself. Today, if you're lucky, you get a sheet of paper that tells to how to operate the power button.
What are you talking about? There was a HUGE market for commercial C64 software. Walk into a PC store in the 80s and they had a wall of Commodore software, a wall of Apple software, and a Wall of IBM PC jr software.

You appear to be so ridiculously uninformed that you are a nothing but a distraction in this thread.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,550
13,799
126
www.anyf.ca
Hell. I turned in the whole semesters assignments in the 2nd week of class. I also stayed to help tutor other kids. The friggen teacher every week kept telling me I was failing saying I musta brought it in from home, or had my brother do it for me. He was rejecting my turn in, and I had to redo it. I just kept turning in the same things.

I said "If you don't believe I know what I'm doing, give me a problem right now and I will prove it."

He gave me: "enter a number, convert to a roman numeral. Make it work up to 54."

His code was (going to simplify these answers):

Code:
if (input == '1') cout << 'I';
if (input == '2') cout << 'II';
if (input == '3') cout << 'III';

All the way up to 54.

I had:

Code:
while(input > 0)
{

   if(input >= 1000)
  {
     cout << 'M';
     input -= 1000;
   }

   if(input >= 100)
  {
     cout << 'C';
     input -= 100;
   }

   if(input >= 10)
  {
     cout << 'V';
     input -= 10;
   }

   if(input >= 5)
  {
     cout << 'X';
     input -= 5;
   }

   if(input >= 1)
  {
     cout << 'I';
     input -= 1;
   }

}

(I had all the right expressions in there for 9's, 4's etc, and the correct symbols, etc.)

He had this strange look on his face, like he had no idea what I just did. He failed me and told me not to come back to class.

I went and bitched to the councilor. She told me some people are not cut out for computer programming and suggested I find another interest, and told me to take a test on a computer which tries to analyze my personality and give suggestions on what my career should be and where my interests should lie. So I did, and she told me I should focus on being a garbage man and the skills for it. So I dropped out of high school, got a job (this was during the dot com craze and everybody was hiring), and by the time I would have finished high school, I was making more than both of them (probably combined)... Garbage man indeed!

When I was legally able to (it's age 19 in my state - They don't allow anybody to take it earlier to prevent people from dropping out and taking their GED early to bypass school) I went back and received my GED and went to college. Paid for by my current employer, the one who hired me after I left school.

(I'm now 37 and have 20 years of professional experience)

Wow reminds me of when I was in college, same kind of bullcrap. The issue was we were not allowed to use any concepts we did not learn, and the class was going sooooo slowwww. 2nd semester and we did not eve "learn" arrays yet. We kept getting so many exercises that would be so much easier with arrays but we had to hard code everything with tons of if statements. Try sorting a list of 10 numbers without using an array, or a loop. It's doable, but it's going to be very dirty.

I was actually kinda disappointed at college level programming, I was looking forward to going there and learn new stuff but I'd say 90% of the stuff I already had thought myself through books and online tutorials. I coded a forum system and I was pretty much considered a genius. :awe:
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Wow reminds me of when I was in college, same kind of bullcrap. The issue was we were not allowed to use any concepts we did not learn, and the class was going sooooo slowwww. 2nd semester and we did not eve "learn" arrays yet. We kept getting so many exercises that would be so much easier with arrays but we had to hard code everything with tons of if statements. Try sorting a list of 10 numbers without using an array, or a loop. It's doable, but it's going to be very dirty.

I've had classes like that and I just made my own rudimentary implementations of an array. I got in trouble for it. =(
 

Merad

Platinum Member
May 31, 2010
2,586
19
81
Is C++ hard? Not really. The hardest part that most people have with it is that it gives you a lot of rope to hang yourself with compared to some of today's popular managed languages (e.g. C# or Java). *snip*

Eh, no offense but when I see someone claim that C++ isn't that hard it's a pretty good sign that they don't really know what they're talking about. This isn't really surprising, because most people take an intro level class or do a few tutorials that might (if they learn it well) give them a basic "C with classes" level understanding. In truth, they don't actually know anything about the language, and they've barely scratched the surface of its features.

I don't entirely agree with him, but this guy does a pretty good job of outlining just how complex the language is. I've been using C++ for 10 years and consider myself an expert in it (though still not entirely up to date on C++11), and believe me it is hard.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,550
13,799
126
www.anyf.ca
I've had classes like that and I just made my own rudimentary implementations of an array. I got in trouble for it. =(

Sucks that school is always that way "Do it my way, or it's wrong" is typically how it goes. That's not how people learn.

HTML class was equally as hilarious. We were not allowed to use CSS. End of year project was to make a website. The guy who had the most blink/markee etc stuff is the one that got the highest points.
 

sze5003

Lifer
Aug 18, 2012
14,318
682
126
So he figured out now that the computer science field is the one that makes decent money after graduating? I've been telling my peers this since high school, not one of them listened but at least there are some IT admins who I know don't do crap and get paid more than I do to write code for a large enterprise investment corp.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,003
10,495
126
What are you talking about? There was a HUGE market for commercial C64 software. Walk into a PC store in the 80s and they had a wall of Commodore software, a wall of Apple software, and a Wall of IBM PC jr software.

You appear to be so ridiculously uninformed that you are a nothing but a distraction in this thread.

Oh, a whole wall full, eh? Yea, that's different than the virtually infinite choice we have now. Programs were also easier to hack back then. Little DRM, and an amateur could look in the files, and make some sense of it.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
Eh, no offense but when I see someone claim that C++ isn't that hard it's a pretty good sign that they don't really know what they're talking about.

I meant that from the vantage point of a newbie looking to learn programming using C++, which is why I talked about the usual traps that beginners tend to fall into.

EDIT:

Although, I'll certainly admit that I've never considered myself to be an expert at C++, because, in what may seem surprising to some, I've never had a reason to delve in deeper. Most of my programming tasks at my various positions have not been in C++, but I've had to be able to comprehend it for testing.

I did know the answer to the majority of the 36 questions though. :p A few of them I had heard of in the past, but I just couldn't recall. I guess that makes his point given I've never had the reason to retain some of that knowledge when using mostly managed languages like C# and Java.
 
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Possessed Freak

Diamond Member
Nov 4, 1999
6,045
1
0
I gave up on being a programmer when they "introduced" us to OOP. By introduced, I mean we jumped right in. I was lost in a few days. Treading water for a week and bailed a bit after.
 

alkemyst

No Lifer
Feb 13, 2001
83,769
19
81
Write the best NSA algos, bros! We all profit!

Well at least us on *top* profit!

Don't mind the Solient Green, its rather tasty on a cracker.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,695
4,657
75
I gave up on being a programmer when they "introduced" us to OOP. By introduced, I mean we jumped right in. I was lost in a few days. Treading water for a week and bailed a bit after.

:( They're just structs that store functions. And usually give the functions special scope access to other members of the same struct instance.