Obama v. Cheney

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

When we had questions for Dickie he was too busy hiding in his "undisclosed location", but now that he's only relevant because he (or some of his goons) might end up in court he won't shut up.

Well, thanks to our current Veep, everybody now knows where the "undisclosed location" is.

While that was dumb of Biden to say, the fact that Cheney's super secret 'undisclosed location' was right under his house doesn't sound so amazingly secret to me.

Good thing you can rationalize Biden's idiotic behavior.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: RKDaley

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

When we had questions for Dickie he was too busy hiding in his "undisclosed location", but now that he's only relevant because he (or some of his goons) might end up in court he won't shut up.

Well, thanks to our current Veep, everybody now knows where the "undisclosed location" is.

Except Cheney had already disclosed where he was during an interview on 'Meet The Press'

CHENEY: ?While I was there, over the next several minutes, watching developments on the television and as we started to get organized to figure out what to do, my Secret Service agents came in and, under these circumstances, they just move. They don't say ?sir? or ask politely. They came in and said, ?Sir, we have to leave immediately, and grabbed me and. . .?7

?Yeah. And, you know, your feet touch the floor periodically. But they're bigger than I am, and they hoisted me up and moved me very rapidly down the hallway, down some stairs, through some doors and down some more stairs into an underground facility under the White House, and, as a matter of fact, it's a corridor, locked at both ends, and they did that because they had received a report that an airplane was headed for the White House.?

?And when it entered the danger zone and looked like it was headed for the White House was when they grabbed me and evacuated me to the basement. . . . [O]nce I got down into the shelter, the first thing I did--there's a secure phone there. First thing I did was pick up the telephone and call the president again, who was still down in Florida, at that point, and strongly urged him to delay his return.?

?Once I left that immediate shelter, after I talked to the president, urged him to stay away for now, well, I went down into what's called PEOC,8 the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, and there, I had Norm Mineta . . . . I had Condi Rice with me and several of my key staff people. We had access, secured communications with Air Force One, with the Secretary of Defense over in the Pentagon. We had also the secure videoconference that ties together the White House, CIA, State, Justice, Defense.?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/i...hp?context=va&aid=9368

Considering Biden said the "secret bunker" was under the Naval Observatory, and the article states Cheney was rushed under the White House, I'd say he *didn't* reveal what Biden did.

 

[RKDaley]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee
Considering Biden said the "secret bunker" was under the Naval Observatory, and the article states Cheney was rushed under the White House, I'd say he *didn't* reveal what Biden did.

How are you so certain Biden said "secret bunker" and stated that it was under the Naval academy? In fact, there are questions as to what exactly Biden said at the dinner.
The person that blogged what happened was not even at the dinner (where the conversation supposedly occured) . She read about the conversation in a newsletter.
This whole 'Biden reveals location' is now being described as a myth: http://voices.washingtonpost.c...th.html?wprss=rss_blog

Roxanne Roberts and Amy Argetsinger write in The Washington Post that Clift's "source" was the club's newsletter, in which club President Dick Cooper of the Tribune Co. recounted what Biden had said to him at the dinner -- fully two months ago.

But Clift apparently put two and two together and got five. The room in question was not Cheney's secret bunker.

But of course some news agencies ran with it.

Corrections can be found here: http://voices.washingtonpost.c...09/05/rs-bunker19.html

In March, Biden attended the Gridiron dinner (an annual off-the-record media schmoozefest) and made small talk with club President Dick Cooper of the Tribune Co. At one point, Biden casually mentioned a secure room in his new home, previously used by Cheney and his aides. Per tradition, Cooper recapped the evening for the club newsletter, which was sent out this month.

However: The veep's office said yesterday that he simply described an upstairs workspace that was converted into a guestroom when the Bidens moved in. No security gaffe -- at least that's what they're telling us. In fact, it's long been reported that Cheney used a Cold War-era bunker in Pennsylvania as his undisclosed location.

and here:http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnew...eal-the-secret-bunker/

What the Vice President described in his comments was not - as some press reports have suggested - an underground facility, but rather, an upstairs workspace in the residence, which he understood was frequently used by Vice President Cheney and his aides. That workspace was converted into an upstairs guestroom when the Bidens moved into the residence. There was no disclosure of classified information," said Vice President Biden's spokeswoman, Elizabeth Alexander.

Politico also removed the false story link from it's pages.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49

I've read no testimony from soldiers who have undergone it have you? Only been made aware that thats part of the training.
Heres an interesting challenge from Hannity, you ought to love this.
Text

Speaking of Hannity, Jesse Ventura, a former Navy SEAL who underwent waterboarding in training was on the Sean Hannity show the other day... and he said waterboarding was torture.

So yes, I've seen testimony from soldiers who have undergone it.

missed the interview as I rarely watch Hannity, but glad to see you do
I assumed you were going to provide a link to some of that testimony????

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49

I've read no testimony from soldiers who have undergone it have you? Only been made aware that thats part of the training.
Heres an interesting challenge from Hannity, you ought to love this.
Text

Speaking of Hannity, Jesse Ventura, a former Navy SEAL who underwent waterboarding in training was on the Sean Hannity show the other day... and he said waterboarding was torture.

So yes, I've seen testimony from soldiers who have undergone it.

missed the interview as I rarely watch Hannity, but glad to see you do
I assumed you were going to provide a link to some of that testimony????

I never watch Hannity. You would have to be exceptionally stupid to watch that douchebag. To be more clear Jesse Ventura was recently on Sean Hannity's horrible show, but he described waterboarding as torture in other segments. They aren't difficult to find.

For your ease however, here is a link.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: RKDaley

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee
Considering Biden said the "secret bunker" was under the Naval Observatory, and the article states Cheney was rushed under the White House, I'd say he *didn't* reveal what Biden did.

How are you so certain Biden said "secret bunker" and stated that it was under the Naval academy? In fact, there are questions as to what exactly Biden said at the dinner.
The person that blogged what happened was not even at the dinner (where the conversation supposedly occured) . She read about the conversation in a newsletter.
This whole 'Biden reveals location' is now being described as a myth: http://voices.washingtonpost.c...th.html?wprss=rss_blog

Roxanne Roberts and Amy Argetsinger write in The Washington Post that Clift's "source" was the club's newsletter, in which club President Dick Cooper of the Tribune Co. recounted what Biden had said to him at the dinner -- fully two months ago.

But Clift apparently put two and two together and got five. The room in question was not Cheney's secret bunker.

But of course some news agencies ran with it.

Corrections can be found here: http://voices.washingtonpost.c...09/05/rs-bunker19.html

In March, Biden attended the Gridiron dinner (an annual off-the-record media schmoozefest) and made small talk with club President Dick Cooper of the Tribune Co. At one point, Biden casually mentioned a secure room in his new home, previously used by Cheney and his aides. Per tradition, Cooper recapped the evening for the club newsletter, which was sent out this month.

However: The veep's office said yesterday that he simply described an upstairs workspace that was converted into a guestroom when the Bidens moved in. No security gaffe -- at least that's what they're telling us. In fact, it's long been reported that Cheney used a Cold War-era bunker in Pennsylvania as his undisclosed location.

and here:http://whitehouse.blogs.foxnew...eal-the-secret-bunker/

What the Vice President described in his comments was not - as some press reports have suggested - an underground facility, but rather, an upstairs workspace in the residence, which he understood was frequently used by Vice President Cheney and his aides. That workspace was converted into an upstairs guestroom when the Bidens moved into the residence. There was no disclosure of classified information," said Vice President Biden's spokeswoman, Elizabeth Alexander.

Politico also removed the false story link from it's pages.

Wait a second - wasn't your position just hours ago that he *did* say it, but Cheney said it first? Which is it?

*Of course* his office is going to spin what he said. Goodness knows they have plenty of practice at that.

 

[RKDaley]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Wait a second - wasn't your position just hours ago that he *did* say it, but Cheney said it first? Which is it?

I said "Except Cheney had already disclosed where he was during an interview on 'Meet The Press' " in response to the statement that Biden had revealed the bunker. He did so after 911, in an interview, on "Meet the Press". Why aren't people outraged at him?

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee*Of course* his office is going to spin what he said. Goodness knows they have plenty of practice at that.

I don't know if his office "spun" what he said. I do know that three diferent news sources have walked their story back, based on the fact that they were obviously not confident in the original person who supposedly broke the 'story'.

 

[BarrySotero]

Listening to Cheney speak after Obama (Cheney was scheduled first though with bama trying to upstage him hahah) was like moving over to to the adult dinner table after sitting with the kids. All Obama needed was one of those paper Burger king hats and it would have been perfect. I don't know if Obama has uttered a sincere and honest sentence since Jan. All his speeches sound the same - and gaseous at that. 'Founding promise" bla bla.."fundamental values" bla bla...this one bit is a pip:


"I stand here today as someone whose own life was made possible by these documents. My father came to these shores in search of the promise that they offered. My mother made me rise before dawn to learn their truths when I lived as a child in a foreign land. My own American journey was paved by generations of citizens who gave meaning to those simple words -- "to form a more perfect union." I've studied the Constitution as a student, I've taught it as a teacher, I've been bound by it as a lawyer and a legislator. I took an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution as Commander-in-Chief, and as a citizen, I know that we must never, ever, turn our back on its enduring principles for expedience sake."

Haha - a bold stroke from a suit-o-promter that just mugged creditors at Chrysler. We all know how much Obama loves that Constitution (the one he said failed to enact wealth re-distribution). If this wasn't sad it would be funny as all heck.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49

I've read no testimony from soldiers who have undergone it have you? Only been made aware that thats part of the training.
Heres an interesting challenge from Hannity, you ought to love this.
Text

Speaking of Hannity, Jesse Ventura, a former Navy SEAL who underwent waterboarding in training was on the Sean Hannity show the other day... and he said waterboarding was torture.

So yes, I've seen testimony from soldiers who have undergone it.

missed the interview as I rarely watch Hannity, but glad to see you do
I assumed you were going to provide a link to some of that testimony????

I never watch Hannity. You would have to be exceptionally stupid to watch that douchebag. To be more clear Jesse Ventura was recently on Sean Hannity's horrible show, but he described waterboarding as torture in other segments. They aren't difficult to find.

For your ease however, here is a link.

Allen Coombs. the resident liberal. on fox did the interview,,Hannity was no where to be seen.
However it is interesting that Fox chose to do the interview which certainly gives them creedance in thier Fair and Balanced Motto.
Ventura basically came off sounding like your resident average run of the mill left leaning, religion hating wingnut in the interview. However I certainly am not going to dispute his feeling that he felt tortured..although I see no long lasting effects on him.
I would not however assume, as I hope you would, that one mans opinion is the end all, I would certainly want to read more from more military men and women on both sides of the fence.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Allen Coombs. the resident liberal. on fox did the interview,,Hannity was no where to be seen.
However it is interesting that Fox chose to do the interview which certainly gives them creedance in thier Fair and Balanced Motto.
Ventura basically came off sounding like your resident average run of the mill left leaning, religion hating wingnut in the interview. However I certainly am not going to dispute his feeling that he felt tortured..although I see no long lasting effects on him.
I would not however assume, as I hope you would, that one mans opinion is the end all, I would certainly want to read more from more military men and women on both sides of the fence.

Jesse Ventura is a libertarian, not a liberal. I am unaware of any person who has undergone waterboarding who has said it was not torture.

Oh, and Fox is not fair and balanced. I think everyone here can at least admit that.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49

Allen Coombs. the resident liberal. on fox did the interview,,Hannity was no where to be seen.
However it is interesting that Fox chose to do the interview which certainly gives them creedance in thier Fair and Balanced Motto.
Ventura basically came off sounding like your resident average run of the mill left leaning, religion hating wingnut in the interview. However I certainly am not going to dispute his feeling that he felt tortured..although I see no long lasting effects on him.
I would not however assume, as I hope you would, that one mans opinion is the end all, I would certainly want to read more from more military men and women on both sides of the fence.

Jesse Ventura is a libertarian, not a liberal. I am unaware of any person who has undergone waterboarding who has said it was not torture.

Oh, and Fox is not fair and balanced. I think everyone here can at least admit that.

Jesse Ventura is a libertarian, not a liberal
I don't know what he is but if you reread you will see I said he came off as one not he is one.

I am unaware of any person who has undergone waterboarding who has said it was not torture
Our unawareness is unacceptable reasoning for a position therefore I will not concrete myself securely at this point to either side.

Oh, and Fox is not fair and balanced. I think everyone here can at least admit that

The fact they did the interview and aired it dismisses your argument.
not everyone here, only the 90% that aren't republican I would say they are much more balanced then MSNBC.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: daniel49

Jesse Ventura is a libertarian, not a liberal
I don't know what he is but if you reread you will see I said he came off as one not he is one.

I am unaware of any person who has undergone waterboarding who has said it was not torture
Our unawareness is unacceptable reasoning for a position therefore I will not concrete myself securely at this point to either side.

Oh, and Fox is not fair and balanced. I think everyone here can at least admit that

The fact they did the interview and aired it dismisses your argument.
not everyone here, only the 90% that aren't republican I would say they are much more balanced then MSNBC.

Uhmmm, you're completely wrong. (well, your part about Ventura's political beliefs is pretty benign)

Being unaware of anyone holding an opinion a certain way is most certainly not unacceptable reasoning for holding a position. I've read a lot about this issue and I've never seen a single person who had been waterboarded say it wasn't torture. I'm quite certain that were there to be people who were waterboarded who said it wasn't bad, torture apologists would have trotted them out long ago. Since it is literally impossible to prove the non-existence of such a person, holding that up as a reason not to take either side is absurd.

My argument against Fox is also in no way dismissed. Just because they air one segment that is 'liberal' does not discount the countless hundreds/thousands of hours of right wing propaganda they put out. In addition, what MSNBC does has absolutely no bearing on if Fox is fair and balanced or not.

 

[TechAZ]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49

Jesse Ventura is a libertarian, not a liberal
I don't know what he is but if you reread you will see I said he came off as one not he is one.

I am unaware of any person who has undergone waterboarding who has said it was not torture
Our unawareness is unacceptable reasoning for a position therefore I will not concrete myself securely at this point to either side.

Oh, and Fox is not fair and balanced. I think everyone here can at least admit that

The fact they did the interview and aired it dismisses your argument.
not everyone here, only the 90% that aren't republican I would say they are much more balanced then MSNBC.

Uhmmm, you're completely wrong. (well, your part about Ventura's political beliefs is pretty benign)

Being unaware of anyone holding an opinion a certain way is most certainly not unacceptable reasoning for holding a position. I've read a lot about this issue and I've never seen a single person who had been waterboarded say it wasn't torture. I'm quite certain that were there to be people who were waterboarded who said it wasn't bad, torture apologists would have trotted them out long ago. Since it is literally impossible to prove the non-existence of such a person, holding that up as a reason not to take either side is absurd.

My argument against Fox is also in no way dismissed. Just because they air one segment that is 'liberal' does not discount the countless hundreds/thousands of hours of right wing propaganda they put out. In addition, what MSNBC does has absolutely no bearing on if Fox is fair and balanced or not.

Waterboarding is not torture in my opinion. Extremely unpleasent psychologically, sure....permanent horror and damage? No.

It doesn't matter what journalists/reporters say after they've been waterboarded....that's the worst thing that's happened to them and of course they're going to think it's torture, they think they're going to drown and die. I'm sure they get over it. I'd like to see them line up and participate in REAL torture then report whether or not waterboarding really is torture.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: TechAZ

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49

Jesse Ventura is a libertarian, not a liberal
I don't know what he is but if you reread you will see I said he came off as one not he is one.

I am unaware of any person who has undergone waterboarding who has said it was not torture
Our unawareness is unacceptable reasoning for a position therefore I will not concrete myself securely at this point to either side.

Oh, and Fox is not fair and balanced. I think everyone here can at least admit that

The fact they did the interview and aired it dismisses your argument.
not everyone here, only the 90% that aren't republican I would say they are much more balanced then MSNBC.

Uhmmm, you're completely wrong. (well, your part about Ventura's political beliefs is pretty benign)

Being unaware of anyone holding an opinion a certain way is most certainly not unacceptable reasoning for holding a position. I've read a lot about this issue and I've never seen a single person who had been waterboarded say it wasn't torture. I'm quite certain that were there to be people who were waterboarded who said it wasn't bad, torture apologists would have trotted them out long ago. Since it is literally impossible to prove the non-existence of such a person, holding that up as a reason not to take either side is absurd.

My argument against Fox is also in no way dismissed. Just because they air one segment that is 'liberal' does not discount the countless hundreds/thousands of hours of right wing propaganda they put out. In addition, what MSNBC does has absolutely no bearing on if Fox is fair and balanced or not.

Waterboarding is not torture in my opinion. Extremely unpleasent psychologically, sure....permanent horror and damage? No.

It doesn't matter what journalists/reporters say after they've been waterboarded....that's the worst thing that's happened to them and of course they're going to think it's torture, they think they're going to drown and die. I'm sure they get over it. I'd like to see them line up and participate in REAL torture then report whether or not waterboarding really is torture.

how about you line up for it instead and let us know?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: TechAZ

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49

Jesse Ventura is a libertarian, not a liberal
I don't know what he is but if you reread you will see I said he came off as one not he is one.

I am unaware of any person who has undergone waterboarding who has said it was not torture
Our unawareness is unacceptable reasoning for a position therefore I will not concrete myself securely at this point to either side.

Oh, and Fox is not fair and balanced. I think everyone here can at least admit that

The fact they did the interview and aired it dismisses your argument.
not everyone here, only the 90% that aren't republican I would say they are much more balanced then MSNBC.

Uhmmm, you're completely wrong. (well, your part about Ventura's political beliefs is pretty benign)

Being unaware of anyone holding an opinion a certain way is most certainly not unacceptable reasoning for holding a position. I've read a lot about this issue and I've never seen a single person who had been waterboarded say it wasn't torture. I'm quite certain that were there to be people who were waterboarded who said it wasn't bad, torture apologists would have trotted them out long ago. Since it is literally impossible to prove the non-existence of such a person, holding that up as a reason not to take either side is absurd.

My argument against Fox is also in no way dismissed. Just because they air one segment that is 'liberal' does not discount the countless hundreds/thousands of hours of right wing propaganda they put out. In addition, what MSNBC does has absolutely no bearing on if Fox is fair and balanced or not.

Waterboarding is not torture in my opinion. Extremely unpleasent psychologically, sure....permanent horror and damage? No.

It doesn't matter what journalists/reporters say after they've been waterboarded....that's the worst thing that's happened to them and of course they're going to think it's torture, they think they're going to drown and die. I'm sure they get over it. I'd like to see them line up and participate in REAL torture then report whether or not waterboarding really is torture.

If anyone wonders why this country is going down the tubes, you have your answer by reading comments like this. It's all about "me". I can do whatever I want, the laws apply to you, not to me.

So the fact that it's illegal doesn't matter to you? You support the government being allowed to break/ignore the law whenever they want? Do you even understand what that means?

 

[Xellos2099]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: TechAZ

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daniel49

Jesse Ventura is a libertarian, not a liberal
I don't know what he is but if you reread you will see I said he came off as one not he is one.

I am unaware of any person who has undergone waterboarding who has said it was not torture
Our unawareness is unacceptable reasoning for a position therefore I will not concrete myself securely at this point to either side.

Oh, and Fox is not fair and balanced. I think everyone here can at least admit that

The fact they did the interview and aired it dismisses your argument.
not everyone here, only the 90% that aren't republican I would say they are much more balanced then MSNBC.

Uhmmm, you're completely wrong. (well, your part about Ventura's political beliefs is pretty benign)

Being unaware of anyone holding an opinion a certain way is most certainly not unacceptable reasoning for holding a position. I've read a lot about this issue and I've never seen a single person who had been waterboarded say it wasn't torture. I'm quite certain that were there to be people who were waterboarded who said it wasn't bad, torture apologists would have trotted them out long ago. Since it is literally impossible to prove the non-existence of such a person, holding that up as a reason not to take either side is absurd.

My argument against Fox is also in no way dismissed. Just because they air one segment that is 'liberal' does not discount the countless hundreds/thousands of hours of right wing propaganda they put out. In addition, what MSNBC does has absolutely no bearing on if Fox is fair and balanced or not.

Waterboarding is not torture in my opinion. Extremely unpleasent psychologically, sure....permanent horror and damage? No.

It doesn't matter what journalists/reporters say after they've been waterboarded....that's the worst thing that's happened to them and of course they're going to think it's torture, they think they're going to drown and die. I'm sure they get over it. I'd like to see them line up and participate in REAL torture then report whether or not waterboarding really is torture.

If anyone wonders why this country is going down the tubes, you have your answer by reading comments like this. It's all about "me". I can do whatever I want, the laws apply to you, not to me.

So the fact that it's illegal doesn't matter to you? You support the government being allowed to break/ignore the law whenever they want? Do you even understand what that means?

Funny you mention "Illegal". I am not seeing Obama doing anything to prevent illegal immigrant from coming in. Hell, the one that government caught and Nancy call it an outrage and offer them work permit. Letting them in uncheck is the real outrage and if I recall correctly, the first attack on WTC years back was carried out by an illegal immigrant.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099

Funny you mention "Illegal". I am not seeing Obama doing anything to prevent illegal immigrant from coming in. Hell, the one that government caught and Nancy call it an outrage and offer them work permit. Letting them in uncheck is the real outrage and if I recall correctly, the first attack on WTC years back was carried out by an illegal immigrant.

You don't see Obama doing anything to prevent illegal immigration? His budget for 2010 is now up to almost $60 billion for DHS, a substantial amount of that being border patrol efforts. Sounds like you need to go do some more reading.

Regardless, trying to sidetrack this to illegal immigration is just a thread hijack and an attempt to deflect blame from the endorsement of torture.

PS: I really hope English is your second language.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: TechAZ

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Uhmmm, you're completely wrong. (well, your part about Ventura's political beliefs is pretty benign)

Being unaware of anyone holding an opinion a certain way is most certainly not unacceptable reasoning for holding a position. I've read a lot about this issue and I've never seen a single person who had been waterboarded say it wasn't torture. I'm quite certain that were there to be people who were waterboarded who said it wasn't bad, torture apologists would have trotted them out long ago. Since it is literally impossible to prove the non-existence of such a person, holding that up as a reason not to take either side is absurd.

My argument against Fox is also in no way dismissed. Just because they air one segment that is 'liberal' does not discount the countless hundreds/thousands of hours of right wing propaganda they put out. In addition, what MSNBC does has absolutely no bearing on if Fox is fair and balanced or not.

Waterboarding is not torture in my opinion. Extremely unpleasent psychologically, sure....permanent horror and damage? No.

It doesn't matter what journalists/reporters say after they've been waterboarded....that's the worst thing that's happened to them and of course they're going to think it's torture, they think they're going to drown and die. I'm sure they get over it. I'd like to see them line up and participate in REAL torture then report whether or not waterboarding really is torture.

Hahaha. You are saying 'I don't care what people who have actually experienced it think, I know it's not torture'. Do you realize how incredibly ignorant that is? The best part is that you have decided you know what REAL torture is, despite having never undergone any of that either.

This is why you guys have no credibility on torture. First you say waterboarding isn't torture, when you are told that it's a technique from the Spanish Inquisition, that it's been condemned and prosecuted as torture and a war crime in the past, you say you don't care. Still not torture. Then people who have actually been waterboarded come forth and tell you that it's torture... even people who thought that it wasn't before they underwent it say it's 'absolutely torture', you still refuse to admit that you were wrong.

It's become clear to me that no amount of evidence, no matter how many piles and piles and piles of it are heaped upon you, nothing will convince you that you're wrong about a subject that you admittedly have zero experience with. Your willful denial of reality, even reality shoved in your face repeatedly, is both fascinating from a psychological perspective and really sad from a human one.

 

[TechAZ]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: TechAZ

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Uhmmm, you're completely wrong. (well, your part about Ventura's political beliefs is pretty benign)

Being unaware of anyone holding an opinion a certain way is most certainly not unacceptable reasoning for holding a position. I've read a lot about this issue and I've never seen a single person who had been waterboarded say it wasn't torture. I'm quite certain that were there to be people who were waterboarded who said it wasn't bad, torture apologists would have trotted them out long ago. Since it is literally impossible to prove the non-existence of such a person, holding that up as a reason not to take either side is absurd.

My argument against Fox is also in no way dismissed. Just because they air one segment that is 'liberal' does not discount the countless hundreds/thousands of hours of right wing propaganda they put out. In addition, what MSNBC does has absolutely no bearing on if Fox is fair and balanced or not.

Waterboarding is not torture in my opinion. Extremely unpleasent psychologically, sure....permanent horror and damage? No.

It doesn't matter what journalists/reporters say after they've been waterboarded....that's the worst thing that's happened to them and of course they're going to think it's torture, they think they're going to drown and die. I'm sure they get over it. I'd like to see them line up and participate in REAL torture then report whether or not waterboarding really is torture.

Hahaha. You are saying 'I don't care what people who have actually experienced it think, I know it's not torture'. Do you realize how incredibly ignorant that is? The best part is that you have decided you know what REAL torture is, despite having never undergone any of that either.

This is why you guys have no credibility on torture. First you say waterboarding isn't torture, when you are told that it's a technique from the Spanish Inquisition, that it's been condemned and prosecuted as torture and a war crime in the past, you say you don't care. Still not torture. Then people who have actually been waterboarded come forth and tell you that it's torture... even people who thought that it wasn't before they underwent it say it's 'absolutely torture', you still refuse to admit that you were wrong.

It's become clear to me that no amount of evidence, no matter how many piles and piles and piles of it are heaped upon you, nothing will convince you that you're wrong about a subject that you admittedly have zero experience with. Your willful denial of reality, even reality shoved in your face repeatedly, is both fascinating from a psychological perspective and really sad from a human one.

I don't care what a journalist or shock jock radio host says about it, that much is true. If Paris Hilton had to go to the ER and wait for 8 hours for treatment of something and thought that was torture, would it make it so?

I have undergone the same amount of "torture" that you have. I find it fascinating that because I have a different opinion than you I am evil, psychologically damaged, a sad human being, a retard, etc etc. That says more about you than me.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: TechAZ
I don't care what a journalist or shock jock radio host says about it, that much is true. If Paris Hilton had to go to the ER and wait for 8 hours for treatment of something and thought that was torture, would it make it so?

I have undergone the same amount of "torture" that you have. I find it fascinating that because I have a different opinion than you I am evil, psychologically damaged, a sad human being, a retard, etc etc. That says more about you than me.

what your argument boils down to is that you think since everything is relative then what some people think is torture is different from what you think is torture. Therefore it is ok for you to think that waterboarding is not torture.

And what eskimospy is telling you is that the overwhelming amount of historical evidence says that in this case....everything being relative does NOT apply.An overwhelming percentage of people whom have undergone waterboarding will tell you that it is torture. Governments will tell you it fits the classification of torture. Former POWs, terrorists, good people, bad people, all of whom went thru waterboarding will tell you its torture. Find someone (in that category) who thinks differently...please.

I think it runs along the same lines of...if you get hit by a fast moving car its gonna hurt.

nothing relative about it.

So in a sense, your unwillingness to acknowledge this fact does show at the least a willfull ignorance, at the worst a psychological issue/pathology.

show me how I'm wrong.

 

[TechAZ]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: TechAZ
I don't care what a journalist or shock jock radio host says about it, that much is true. If Paris Hilton had to go to the ER and wait for 8 hours for treatment of something and thought that was torture, would it make it so?

I have undergone the same amount of "torture" that you have. I find it fascinating that because I have a different opinion than you I am evil, psychologically damaged, a sad human being, a retard, etc etc. That says more about you than me.

what your argument boils down to is that you think since everything is relative then what some people think is torture is different from what you think is torture. Therefore it is ok for you to think that waterboarding is not torture.

And what eskimospy is telling you is that the overwhelming amount of historical evidence says that in this case....everything being relative does NOT apply.An overwhelming percentage of people whom have undergone waterboarding will tell you that it is torture. Governments will tell you it fits the classification of torture. Former POWs, terrorists, good people, bad people, all of whom went thru waterboarding will tell you its torture. Find someone (in that category) who thinks differently...please.

I think it runs along the same lines of...if you get hit by a fast moving car its gonna hurt.

nothing relative about it.

So in a sense, your unwillingness to acknowledge this fact does show at the least a willfull ignorance, at the worst a psychological issue/pathology.

show me how I'm wrong.

I think everyone's at least a little ignorant about everything in life. You do seem to understand my position of it being relative though. There are different degrees in torture IMO and waterboarding sure could be within that definition of torture...however I think it's borderline and mild in my own definition. My ignorance might be on the actual definition of the word used by the DoJ and CIA, but my opinion at the moment is what I've stated it to be.

I assure you I have no pathological or psychological disorder, just an opinion

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: TechAZ

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Hahaha. You are saying 'I don't care what people who have actually experienced it think, I know it's not torture'. Do you realize how incredibly ignorant that is? The best part is that you have decided you know what REAL torture is, despite having never undergone any of that either.

This is why you guys have no credibility on torture. First you say waterboarding isn't torture, when you are told that it's a technique from the Spanish Inquisition, that it's been condemned and prosecuted as torture and a war crime in the past, you say you don't care. Still not torture. Then people who have actually been waterboarded come forth and tell you that it's torture... even people who thought that it wasn't before they underwent it say it's 'absolutely torture', you still refuse to admit that you were wrong.

It's become clear to me that no amount of evidence, no matter how many piles and piles and piles of it are heaped upon you, nothing will convince you that you're wrong about a subject that you admittedly have zero experience with. Your willful denial of reality, even reality shoved in your face repeatedly, is both fascinating from a psychological perspective and really sad from a human one.

I don't care what a journalist or shock jock radio host says about it, that much is true. If Paris Hilton had to go to the ER and wait for 8 hours for treatment of something and thought that was torture, would it make it so?

I have undergone the same amount of "torture" that you have. I find it fascinating that because I have a different opinion than you I am evil, psychologically damaged, a sad human being, a retard, etc etc. That says more about you than me.

Do you understand the principles of evidence and rational thought? For the very reason that I have NOT undergone this technique, I base my opinion on the evidence of people who HAVE. They have knowledge I do not, so when I want to learn something about it, I look and see what they say. Is it wrong to base your opinion of what the surface of the moon is like off of Neil Armstrong's description? I mean you haven't been there, so how do you know? You're attacking the basic principles of logical argument by simply choosing to ignore evidence that doesn't suit your baseless ideological opinion.

Journalists aren't the only ones who think it's torture either. Jesse Ventura for one was a former Navy SEAL. I know quite a few SEALs myself and they are some of the toughest people on the planet. What did Ventura say? 'Waterboarding is absolutely torture'. Just how many people need to shove your face in how wrong you are before you will admit it? Just give me a number.

You are not evil because you have a different opinion, what you are saying is evil because... it's an evil opinion. Why condemn murder for being evil? If I were to endorse rape, why condemn me? I just have a different opinion than you. That's not evil, right?

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: TechAZ

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: TechAZ
I don't care what a journalist or shock jock radio host says about it, that much is true. If Paris Hilton had to go to the ER and wait for 8 hours for treatment of something and thought that was torture, would it make it so?

I have undergone the same amount of "torture" that you have. I find it fascinating that because I have a different opinion than you I am evil, psychologically damaged, a sad human being, a retard, etc etc. That says more about you than me.

what your argument boils down to is that you think since everything is relative then what some people think is torture is different from what you think is torture. Therefore it is ok for you to think that waterboarding is not torture.

And what eskimospy is telling you is that the overwhelming amount of historical evidence says that in this case....everything being relative does NOT apply.An overwhelming percentage of people whom have undergone waterboarding will tell you that it is torture. Governments will tell you it fits the classification of torture. Former POWs, terrorists, good people, bad people, all of whom went thru waterboarding will tell you its torture. Find someone (in that category) who thinks differently...please.

I think it runs along the same lines of...if you get hit by a fast moving car its gonna hurt.

nothing relative about it.

So in a sense, your unwillingness to acknowledge this fact does show at the least a willfull ignorance, at the worst a psychological issue/pathology.

show me how I'm wrong.

I think everyone's at least a little ignorant about everything in life. You do seem to understand my position of it being relative though. There are different degrees in torture IMO and waterboarding sure could be within that definition of torture...however I think it's borderline and mild in my own definition. My ignorance might be on the actual definition of the word used by the DoJ and CIA, but my opinion at the moment is what I've stated it to be.

I assure you I have no pathological or psychological disorder, just an opinion

So, now you say your opinion is that waterboarding IS torture....it just isn't as bad as other torture methods?

nuanced opinions like that are what gets Obama in trouble....

Saying your opinion has a degree of ignorance doesn't excuse you of having the wrong opinion about things.

Again, if you get hit by a fast moving car....its gonna hurt bad. And everyone that gets hit by a car says the same thing...it hurts BAD. So what does that make my opinion if my opinion is that getting hit by a fast moving car doesn't hurt that bad?

yes there are degrees of pain. A paper cut hurts less than getting hit by a car which hurts less than (I imagine) getting burned alive. But....its still pain.