Obama to make announcement on Cuba policy at 12est

[ivwshane]

i'm starting to like Rand Paul these days.

That's his plan...don't let him fool you

 

[Fern]

I did say Hispanics, Cubans are a minority of the hispanics in South Florida, even though they dominate here politically and economically. The majority are South Americans and a growing number of Haitans, both groups have a large number of illegals here. The Cubans born here [obviously] tend to sympathize with other Hispanics and vote for the "group" as a whole, which is usually Democrats now.

Really?

When I lived there in the early 80's Cubans seemed to be the largest group by far. There were some South Americans, but not many.

Not many Haitians either. And I don't think of them as Hispanics. IIRC, they're black and speak French, not Spanish.

Where are the S.A.'s from and when did they start to flood in?

Fern

 

[zinfamous]

Same as above - where are you getting your information? Cuba is tiny - a population of just 11 million - and has almost nothing in resources or industry.

Wow, 11 million? That's 2x the size of all 3 Baltic states, combined!

 

[Fern]

And there you have it, proof of who is the biggest partisan on this forum. I think the only person on either side who is against this.
-snip-

I'm rather ambivalent about it.

Obama had an opportunity to encourage human rights and political reforms in Cuba with the embargo. As usual, he bargained it away for nothing. That's a minus.

And I'd prefer he not operate unilaterally.

Cuba has little to offer economically. That's been their problem, not an embargo by us. They've got sugar cane and tourism. We've got both of those too. For our economic purposes I prefer Americans vacation here, not in Cuba. I'd also prefer that our capital be invested here and not in Cuba.

Other destinations, such as the Bahamas, probably aren't thrilled with the idea of more competition and less market share.

So I think this is mostly 'flash' and little-to-no substance. I don't see any real benefit for us. And if Cuba wants to advance they need a heckuva lot more than just us lifting an embargo. And what they need is reform and big changes in policy. And they could have certainly done that without us lifting the embargo. They've been able to do business with virtually the rest of world. Our embargo hasn't stopped them from working with Europe or S.A.; their policies have.

Fern

 

[cabri]

Really?

When I lived there in the early 80's Cubans seemed to be the largest group by far. There were some South Americans, but not many.

Not many Haitians either. And I don't think of them as Hispanics. IIRC, they're black and speak French, not Spanish.

Where are the S.A.'s from and when did they start to flood in?

Fern

I was there in the 90s

Haitians had started to flood in after the country's exodus via sea.
The turmoil/instability in Central America had triggered a large Hispanic influx from countries south of Costa Rica down into Columbia.

 

[zinfamous]

You're too stupid to see that it's possible to agree with an action but oppose how it was done. When are you dumbasses going to realize that the more he pushes the limits on executive orders, unchecked, the more power he's giving to future administrations? The ends don't justify the means when it comes to this level of politics.

If he's setting precedent with his use of executive actions, then Obama is doing it in the proper direction from your perspective--You DO want presidents to use them less and less, correct?

See, you're a fan and you didn't even know it.

 

[K1052]

I'm rather ambivalent about it.

Obama had an opportunity to encourage human rights and political reforms in Cuba with the embargo. As usual, he bargained it away for nothing. That's a minus.

The embargo is still in place. An act of Congress would be required to repeal all the laws passed regarding it. He didn't negotiate away the embargo (an embargo a majority of the country wants eliminated mind you).

And I'd prefer he not operate unilaterally.

I agree. We should ship Congress to Cuba and not let them return until they resolve the issue. Or any of the hundred other pressing agenda items. Realistically letting Congress micromanage foreign policy, including that which the President is legally and historically empowered to conduct, is a horrible horrible idea.

Cuba has little to offer economically. That's been their problem, not an embargo by us. They've got sugar cane and tourism. We've got both of those too. For our economic purposes I prefer Americans vacation here, not in Cuba. I'd also prefer that our capital be invested here and not in Cuba.

Free market bad. Protectionism good. Got it.

Other destinations, such as the Bahamas, probably aren't thrilled with the idea of more competition and less market share.

See above.

So I think this is mostly 'flash' and little-to-no substance. I don't see any real benefit for us. And if Cuba wants to advance they need a heckuva lot more than just us lifting an embargo. And what they need is reform and big changes in policy. And they could have certainly done that without us lifting the embargo. They've been able to do business with virtually the rest of world. Our embargo hasn't stopped them from working with Europe or S.A.; their policies have.

Fern

The whole argument is that engagement will hasten the desired reforms far more so than keeping the ineffectual embargo in place using highly questionable justifications. With the Castros firmly in their golden years the country will soon move into the control of a generation of people born after the revolution who are more open to gradual reform.

 

[kage69]

Nice one Obama, this has been overdue for awhile now.

I love that Rubio is putting up his empty bullshit for all to see too, that tool deserves all the air time we can get him.

Fiercely anti-Castro Cuban Americans should be happy about this. This will lead to real change in Cuba instead of continuing on with a policy that hasn't done much in 50 years. Rubio types are welcome to get frothy about this all they want though, in fact I encourage it. It will just keep bleeding away their chances of holding office, which is a good thing when we're talking about people who practice the definition of insanity attaining positions of power.

Also, the tears of Fox Noise after the Colbert thing and then this Cuba decree are as hilarious as they are delicious.

 

[TreVader]

Rubio and the most virulent Obama-haters will go kicking and screaming if they try to bring a vote on dropping the embargo.

Pretty brilliant move by Obama IMO, and I didn't see it coming at all. Totally takes attention from ISIL and drone strikes and brings it to an issue where you basically either have to be an idiot like Rubio or just care about nothin besides opposing Obama to oppose this.

 

[theeedude]

Why do Republicans believe that the Federal Government should be allowed to tell Americans where we can and can't travel?

 

[K1052]

Rand Paul gives Rubio a savage beating...via twitter

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102284971

 

[VRAMdemon]

Republican opposition to lifting the embargo isn't about helping the Cuban people, of course. Rubio loves to speak for the Cuban people but has never even stepped foot on Cuban soil. Rubio is running for President. And this will be the kickoff and for his first fundraiser. The "Help me stop Obama" letters go out the first of the year.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Free market bad. Protectionism good. Got it.

It's humorous to watch the Left complain here daily about outsourcing, then cheer it when their guy does a semblance it.

Not to mention Cuba's human rights policy. Yeah, cheer it when your guy rewards them without demanding reforms.

Fern

 

[zinfamous]

It's humorous to watch the Left complain here daily about outsourcing, then cheer it when their guy does a semblance it.

Not to mention Cuba's human rights policy. Yeah, cheer it when your guy rewards them without demanding reforms.

Fern

What successes have been gained from the previous 60+ years of embargo, wrg to human rights violations in Cuba, that another indefinite time period of embargo will continue to gain?

What about progress towards human rights in China and Vietnam, and now Burma, when those countries became open?

Are you honestly thinking this through?

You would literally be praising the feet of Paul or Bush or Rubio had the exact same policy been enacted under their authority.

 

[fskimospy]

It's humorous to watch the Left complain here daily about outsourcing, then cheer it when their guy does a semblance it.

Not to mention Cuba's human rights policy. Yeah, cheer it when your guy rewards them without demanding reforms.

Fern

So we had a dumb and pointless policy towards Cuba and you think we shouldn't have changed it unless Cuba gave us more concessions?

We should have gotten rid of it even if Cuba did nothing. That's what you do with dumb policies.

 

[K1052]

It's humorous to watch the Left complain here daily about outsourcing, then cheer it when their guy does a semblance it.

Not to mention Cuba's human rights policy. Yeah, cheer it when your guy rewards them without demanding reforms.

Fern

By your logic we should embargo trade to more countries and ban travel. Can't have our tourists or capital going outside the country. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that Cuba is a materially different situation this is not an argument.

How many countries do we trade and have international relations with that sport poor human rights policies? Again I want to know how Cuba is materially different.

 

[Fern]

-snip-

Here's a link to a paper by the Univ of Miami: http://www6.miami.edu/iccas/terrorism_email.pdf

Check it out and see the type of regime we're now helping. They've done little else than export violence and (non-Muslim) terrorism. "Bullets not ballots", ridiculous.

I suggest, at a minimum, we should have waited until the Castro bros died or were replaced and see what develops. Upon their death a new regimes would emerge. I suspect a less oppressive, less violent, more democratic one would be given consideration if it meant benefits from the US. That opportunity is likely gone.

If rapprochement with Cuba brings them more money a fair question is how much goes to the regime and what will they do with it? As a pipeline for exporting violence and trouble, particularly to our allies in S.A., they've been pretty well shut down given the condition of Russia and Venezuela. Is it going to be opened back up?

Fern

 

[hal2kilo]

Rand Paul gives Rubio a savage beating...via twitter

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102284971

Good to see that punk slapped down.

 

[fskimospy]

Here's a link to a paper by the Univ of Miami: http://www6.miami.edu/iccas/terrorism_email.pdf

Check it out and see the type of regime we're now helping. They've done little else than export violence and (non-Muslim) terrorism. "Bullets not ballots", ridiculous.

I suggest, at a minimum, we should have waited until the Castro bros died or were replaced and see what develops. Upon their death a new regimes would emerge. I suspect a less oppressive, less violent, more democratic one would be given consideration if it meant benefits from the US. That opportunity is likely gone.

If rapprochement with Cuba brings them more money a fair question is how much goes to the regime and what will they do with it? As a pipeline for exporting violence and trouble, particularly to our allies in S.A., they've been well shut down given the condition of Russia and Venezuela. Are we going to open it back up?

Fern

So what other countries do you believe we should immediately set up a travel ban and embargo on?

By the way, that paper is pretty old. Regardless, did you actually go and read the list of 'offenses' that Cuba is being accused of, especially the 1991-2001 stuff? With the exception of shooting a few planes down most of the 'offenses' are hilariously mild.

A high-level PLO military delegation including the head of Intelligence paid a visit to Cuba.

OH NO.

The election of Abdelaziz Bouteflika (April 1999) as President of Algeria, opened new opportunities for Cuba, given Bouteflika's close relationship with the Cuban government for more than three decades.

OH NO. (also, confusing.)

A spokesman for the Basque government in Spain met in Havana with two high level ETA terrorist taking refuge in Cuba, José Angel Urtiaga Martinez and Jesús Lucio Abrisqueta Corte.

TERRIFYING.

Speaking at Tehran University in Iran on May 10, 2001 Fidel Castro vowed that “the imperialist king will finally fall”.

HE SAID SOMETHING MEAN.

I mean seriously, that's your basis for maintaining an embargo? What a joke.

 

[Blanky]

US embargo with Cuba has been completely retarded and Obama has done a great job starting to tear down this wall, held up with nothing but stubborn pride and habit.

 

[zinfamous]

Good to see that punk slapped down.

Rand Paul is really working that independent and disillusioned democrat vote.

I'd :thumbsup:, but I fear he's just another Reagan.

 

[ivwshane]

It's humorous to watch the Left complain here daily about outsourcing, then cheer it when their guy does a semblance it.

Not to mention Cuba's human rights policy. Yeah, cheer it when your guy rewards them without demanding reforms.

Fern

Kinda like what Nixon did with china right? Hypocrisy thy name is republican.


I certainly didn't see Rubio making the same case against china.

 

[hal2kilo]

Rand Paul is really working that independent and disillusioned democrat vote.

I'd :thumbsup:, but I fear he's just another Reagan.

He says some things that ring true with me, but I can't abide by him and his dad's looney economics.

 

[sunzt]

Here's a link to a paper by the Univ of Miami: http://www6.miami.edu/iccas/terrorism_email.pdf

Check it out and see the type of regime we're now helping. They've done little else than export violence and (non-Muslim) terrorism. "Bullets not ballots", ridiculous.

Their most significant export are health care workers (doctors, nurses) who are among the world's best. They are actively helping fight the ebola outbreak, and helping other latin american countries with care.

I suggest, at a minimum, we should have waited until the Castro bros died or were replaced and see what develops. Upon their death a new regimes would emerge. I suspect a less oppressive, less violent, more democratic one would be given consideration if it meant benefits from the US. That opportunity is likely gone.

Or we could have the same or more oppressive, violent, and authoritarian one (see N. Korea). The embargo is being used by the leaders as a justification for it. Even if we wait for a new leader, that person may not have any influence and could be mired in a power struggle upon ascension. Better to deal with the devil-in-charge you know, than huge uncertainty.

From history we know that economic prosperity leads to a middle class that demands more rights and influence in government. Engaging one of america's closest latin american countries is the best way to bring them into the western sphere of influence.

If rapprochement with Cuba brings them more money a fair question is how much goes to the regime and what will they do with it? As a pipeline for exporting violence and trouble, particularly to our allies in S.A., they've been pretty well shut down given the condition of Russia and Venezuela. Is it going to be opened back up?

A huge sticking point with better relations with other latin american countries is our approach towards Cuba. It has fueled the anti-american groups there for decades.

The breakdown of Russia and Venezuela presents a great opportunity for the US to make this geopolitical coup and move Cuba away from their influence; why not take advantage of it? We shouldn't wait for Russia and Venezuela to get back on their feet to help Cuba again, and it is not in the US' best interest to have a failed state on its doorsteps with all of the chaos and uncertainties that present.

 

[Fern]

Kinda like what Nixon did with china right? Hypocrisy thy name is republican.


I certainly didn't see Rubio making the same case against china.

Dumb.

For one thing that was 1972. Feel free to look up my posts back.

I was too young and don't remember it. But a quick look at google indicates that the China deal is very substantially different than Cuba. Google claims major foreign policy benefits etc.

So far no one has been able to identify any significant benefits to the US with a Cuban deal.

Fern