Obama supports the Constitutional Right of Mosque being built near WTC

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waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
So you think that just because we have the right to offend others we should just go ahead and do it? Interesting. Where does it end? When in today's world does someone take others into consideration? And when they don't why should anyone take them into consideration?

where did he say that?

I do think its a slap in the face of the US and NY to build it right where they are planning.

BUT if we deny them the right to build there then they have something to use as a cause. no matter what they do they are going ot use it against the US.

So its a matter of what we as People of the US stand for. laws and the Constitution or going to go off emotion? there is NO legal reason to deny them the land. They have EVERY right to build it.

is it wrong? yes. is it insulting? yes. do i think they should move it? hell yes. is it against the law for them to build it? nope.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
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Sorry, I just don't see it that way. I see it as appeasement and political correctness. Tell you what...when Saudi Arabia starts allowing Christian churches to be built in its country and stops confiscating religious crosses/jewelry and Bibles from visitors' luggage, then maybe I'll allow a mosque near the site of where 3k of my countrymen died at the hands of Saudi terrorists.

I don't see how you COULDN'T see it that way? He, by definition, followed the instructions set out by the US Constitution. Saudi Arabia allowing religious freedom has absolutely nothing to do with it; they don't follow the US Constitution.
 

Generator

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
793
0
0
Don't waste your breath. These anchor babies don't know and don't care what it means to be an American. All tripped up over the emotion of the argument that they don't realize they fight from the shores of barbarism.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
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I don't see how you COULDN'T see it that way? He, by definition, followed the instructions set out by the US Constitution. Saudi Arabia allowing religious freedom has absolutely nothing to do with it; they don't follow the US Constitution.

So you're basically saying I should be accepting and tolerant of them building a mosque so close to the WTC site because our Constitution says so, while they regularly practice intolerance and persecution of all religions other than their extreme version of Wahabist Islam as part of their very existence everyday? Sorry, that doesn't compute in the common sense and human decency department.

As I've said before...I have NO problem with them building a mosque. Build 10 if you want to...just make sure it's nowhere near the WTC.
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
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Any logical Muslim or otherwise knows it's just in bad taste to build a Mosque where thousands of Americans were slaughtered but the radical Muslims and radical left (one and the same) don't see a thing wrong with it.

I'm not sure who hates the United States more...
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Exactly right. As someone who worked across the street on 9/11, saw everything happen, and ran for my life after seeing the 2nd plane smash into the WTC along with the ensuing fireball, I have a particular sensitivity to this issue. I have no problem with building a mosque...build 3 if you want to in NYC. Just not within eyeshot of the WTC site.

Because you know some fucker extremist preacher(s) in Saudi Arabia will be pointing to that mosque generations from now as a symbol -- a "scar" of battle struck against the great Satan in the early 21st century -- like a victory flag at the top of a hill taken from the enemy. It would be like a group of Americans wanting to erect a statue of Harry Truman near Hiroshima. And the last thing we want to be doing is giving encouragement to future generations of muslim extremists.

You continue to make the same points I have already repeatedly addressed. I'll repeat.

First, sorry you were affected by the attacks. That's traumatic. But traumatic doesn't mean you are right if you blame excessively because of that trauma.

It often works that way; I saw people 50 years after WWII who still hated the Japanese or German people today from the trauma they went through. Families of victims of crimes from another group - race, religious, etc. - often blame 'that group', emotionally. Heck, women who are raped often have problems with sexual relationships after that.

Again, the Muslim people were the *target* of Al Queda with these attacks - Al Queda wanted to create animosity between the US and Muslims, because the more there was a war between the two, the more Muslims would be driven towards Al Queda, instead of what was happening, Al Queda being very unpopular in the Muslim world. If you want to serve the 9/11 attackers agenda by increasing animosity towards the Muslims, even if it's asking them not to put a mosque there, that's your choice.

But if you want to fight the 9/11 attackers, do what they don't want - welcome the mosque and your fellow targets of 9/11, the Muslims there, and recognize that the warm acceptance of the Muslims spits in the face of the 9/11 attackers and shows they did not get what they want, the animosity.

Instead, you make up a false bogeyman of the 'radical Muslim' who claims the mosque as a *victory* for Al Queda, when it's the opposite.

Your analogy with Harry Truman is wrong - Harry Truman did order the bomb dropped. The Muslims building the community center are the enemies of Al Queda, they did not do 9/11.

But it shows how you are linking 'all Muslims' together wrongly.

If you don't want to encourage future generations of Muslim extremists, don't encourage hostility to Muslims. Be warm to them and undermine the radicals who thrive on hate.

Also, you just don't do it out of common sense and respect. This is a lose/lose for Obama, and he is injecting himself into a local dispute and pissing off even more people -- 70 percent of Americans are dead against a mosque being built that close to the WTC. He's not a dumb guy so I'm assuming he's doing it intentionally to suck up to the Middle East and satisfy his own idealogical agenda.

OJ Simpson committed a brutal murder in his neighborhood. If he had to sell his house out of the civil settlement, and the neighbors said to 'respect' them by not letting a black man buy the house, the answer would be no. We can respect their legitimate trauma being affected by the crime, but that doesn't give them the right to violate others' rights because they're being wrongheaded - even if you can sympathize with them - about the blame.

You are again just making up nonsense about some Obama middle east agenda. IMO, it appears very likely Obama is supporting the constitution, fairness, and opposing the misguided blame many citizens are placing on Muslims. His position is just what you want a president to do in standing up for right when the majority is wrong.

Obama is fast turning into the disgrace and disaster I knew he had the potential to be. Very very upset at his position on this issue. And it's got nothing to do with freedom of religion. It's a lack of sensitivity, respect, and good taste that I have a problem with.

Again, that's like saying that the black man can buy OJ's house is a lack of sensitivity, respect and good taste. Wrong.

Stop blaming your fellow 9/11 victims who were the targets of the attack - Al Queda's reason for 9/11 was to force the US to attack a Muslim nation, to drive Muslims into Al Queda's arms when they were outraged by the US attack. Al Queda was careful to give a lot of 'reasons' for the attack that are popular among Muslims to hide their agenda.

Welcome them, and support peace and justice and fight the Al Queda agenda. The Muslims involved are no more guilty of 9/11 than you are.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
So you're basically saying I should be accepting and tolerant of them building a mosque so close to the WTC site because our Constitution says so, while they regularly practice intolerance and persecution of all religions other than their extreme version of Wahabist Islam as part of their very existence everyday? Sorry, that doesn't compute in the common sense and human decency department.

As I've said before...I have NO problem with them building a mosque. Build 10 if you want to...just make sure it's nowhere near the WTC.

So, you're saying the US should be more like Saudi Arabia and have more discrimination.

I understand the feelings of you and others on this, but that doesn't make them right.

Get over the misunderstanding that you should be blaming Muslims for 9/11, or play into Al Queda's plan.

'Oh look, Muslims are an isolated culture with tensions with others, and all we did was to isolate them and create tension blaming them for something they didn't do.'
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
So you're basically saying I should be accepting and tolerant of them building a mosque so close to the WTC site because our Constitution says so, while they regularly practice intolerance and persecution of all religions other than their extreme version of Wahabist Islam as part of their very existence everyday? Sorry, that doesn't compute in the common sense and human decency department.

As I've said before...I have NO problem with them building a mosque. Build 10 if you want to...just make sure it's nowhere near the WTC.

I don't care whether or not you're accepting and tolerant. You're more than welcome to be furious over it .. however, it's still right to allow the mosque to be built based on our constitution. Part of being an American, in my mind, is being tolerant even when it's uncomfortable or personally distasteful to be so.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Guys I think this part of the Krauthammer article linked above sums up my view in addition to my recent posts:

Bloomberg’s implication is clear: If the proposed mosque were controlled by “insensitive” Islamist radicals either excusing or celebrating 9/11, he would not support its construction.

But then, why not? By the mayor’s own expansive view of religious freedom, by what right do we dictate the message of any mosque? Moreover, as a practical matter, there’s no guarantee this couldn’t happen in the future. Religious institutions in this country are autonomous. Who is to say that the mosque won’t one day hire an Anwar al-Awlaki — spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and one-time imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists?

An Awlaki preaching in Virginia is a security problem. An Awlaki preaching at Ground Zero is a sacrilege.
 

Medellon

Senior member
Feb 13, 2000
812
2
81
Craig your ideas, thought, opinions, etc. are shared with like .0001 percent of the country. You are just plain wrong most if not all the time and your "vision" of how the US should be will never come to pass, must suck huh? Oh, I like how Paul Krugman got his ass whipped when he erroneously responded to Paul Ryan's fiscal "Roadmap."
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Who is to say that the mosque won’t one day hire an Anwar al-Awlaki — spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and one-time imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists?

An Awlaki preaching in Virginia is a security problem. An Awlaki preaching at Ground Zero is a sacrilege.
[/I]


I don't see the logic in arguing a point that is a remote possibility?
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Exactly right. As someone who worked across the street on 9/11, saw everything happen, and ran for my life after seeing the 2nd plane smash into the WTC along with the ensuing fireball, I have a particular sensitivity to this issue. I have no problem with building a mosque...build 3 if you want to in NYC. Just not within eyeshot of the WTC site.

Because you know some fucker extremist preacher(s) in Saudi Arabia will be pointing to that mosque generations from now as a symbol -- a "scar" of battle struck against the great Satan in the early 21st century -- like a victory flag at the top of a hill taken from the enemy. It would be like a group of Americans wanting to erect a statue of Harry Truman near Hiroshima. And the last thing we want to be doing is giving encouragement to future generations of muslim extremists.

Also, you just don't do it out of common sense and respect. This is a lose/lose for Obama, and he is injecting himself into a local dispute and pissing off even more people -- 70 percent of Americans are dead against a mosque being built that close to the WTC. He's not a dumb guy so I'm assuming he's doing it intentionally to suck up to the Middle East and satisfy his own idealogical agenda.

Obama is fast turning into the disgrace and disaster I knew he had the potential to be. Very very upset at his position on this issue. And it's got nothing to do with freedom of religion. It's a lack of sensitivity, respect, and good taste that I have a problem with.

In the memory of the Muslim Americans that worked and died in the WTC let's build a Mosque right there on site. Here's to you, rave on!
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Craig your ideas, thought, opinions, etc. are shared with like .0001 percent of the country.

If you were right, it has nothing to do with who is correct on the issues. And you're not.

You think I would say in the deep south in 1820, 'slavery is wrong', and you respond that few agree and that means change the position? Wrong.

You are just plain wrong most if not all the time

The argument of the ignorant. 'You're just wrong, but I can't make an argument.'

You disagreeing is evidence I'm right.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Guys I think this part of the Krauthammer article linked above sums up my view in addition to my recent posts:

Bloomberg’s implication is clear: If the proposed mosque were controlled by “insensitive” Islamist radicals either excusing or celebrating 9/11, he would not support its construction.

But then, why not? By the mayor’s own expansive view of religious freedom, by what right do we dictate the message of any mosque? Moreover, as a practical matter, there’s no guarantee this couldn’t happen in the future. Religious institutions in this country are autonomous. Who is to say that the mosque won’t one day hire an Anwar al-Awlaki — spiritual mentor to the Fort Hood shooter and the Christmas Day bomber, and one-time imam at the Virginia mosque attended by two of the 9/11 terrorists?

An Awlaki preaching in Virginia is a security problem. An Awlaki preaching at Ground Zero is a sacrilege.

Which is why I've long said Krauthammer is a bad propagandist.

Here he's pandering to people who would - however sympathetic we are - discriminate wrongly.

Say they DID have Awlaki visit as a guest speaker, as unlikely as that is. Do we say it's a sacrilege - or do we celebrate our freedom of speech that we allow it while his side doesn't?

And be glad that we're in a country with better freedom? Why is it that many people who like to brag about our freedom have such a hard time following it when they don't like the freedom?
 
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brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
I don't see the logic in arguing a point that is a remote possibility?

Wrong. Look at all the extremists that preach in Britain today...and the government tolerates it all out of fear of offending them. Political correctness is going to get us all killed. There is a limit to turning the other cheek.
 

brencat

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2007
2,170
3
76
Say they DID have Awlaki visit as a guest speaker, as unlikely as that is. Do we say it's a sacrilege - or do we celebrate our freedom of speech that we allow it while his side doesn't?

Craig, you are correct in theory. But in practice, I know in my heart I could never be accepting of such a situation. It completely overwhelms mine and many others' sense of decency and common sense. Again, to ensure the survival of a decent and civil society, there have to be limits on permissible activity or we will simply cease to exist one day.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
Exactly right. As someone who worked across the street on 9/11, saw everything happen, and ran for my life after seeing the 2nd plane smash into the WTC along with the ensuing fireball, I have a particular sensitivity to this issue. I have no problem with building a mosque...build 3 if you want to in NYC. Just not within eyeshot of the WTC site.

Because you know some fucker extremist preacher(s) in Saudi Arabia will be pointing to that mosque generations from now as a symbol -- a "scar" of battle struck against the great Satan in the early 21st century -- like a victory flag at the top of a hill taken from the enemy. It would be like a group of Americans wanting to erect a statue of Harry Truman near Hiroshima. And the last thing we want to be doing is giving encouragement to future generations of muslim extremists.

Also, you just don't do it out of common sense and respect. This is a lose/lose for Obama, and he is injecting himself into a local dispute and pissing off even more people -- 70 percent of Americans are dead against a mosque being built that close to the WTC. He's not a dumb guy so I'm assuming he's doing it intentionally to suck up to the Middle East and satisfy his own idealogical agenda.

Obama is fast turning into the disgrace and disaster I knew he had the potential to be. Very very upset at his position on this issue. And it's got nothing to do with freedom of religion. It's a lack of sensitivity, respect, and good taste that I have a problem with.

I right with you. I ripped some of these same bastards in another thread. This has nothing to do with needing more space, freedom of religion, bigotry, or any of that jazz. Its about a group people erecting a damn monument to the motherfrackers who did this. Its funny, why didn't they consider or put in motion plans to build this mosque before 9/11? Why didn't they tear down the old building and start putting up a new one before. And to hear Obama go there and like kiss their asses makes me wanna vomit. Then he says its hallowed ground? Really? Next we will build a mosque in Arlington Cemetary. Its a damn joke......
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,092
136
Wrong. Look at all the extremists that preach in Britain today...and the government tolerates it all out of fear of offending them. Political correctness is going to get us all killed. There is a limit to turning the other cheek.

So now we're arguing your remote possibility taking place in a foreign country? Right.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
where did he say that?

I do think its a slap in the face of the US and NY to build it right where they are planning.

BUT if we deny them the right to build there then they have something to use as a cause. no matter what they do they are going ot use it against the US.

So its a matter of what we as People of the US stand for. laws and the Constitution or going to go off emotion? there is NO legal reason to deny them the land. They have EVERY right to build it.

is it wrong? yes. is it insulting? yes. do i think they should move it? hell yes. is it against the law for them to build it? nope.

That's great, people will have the right to hate Muslims and Islam even more, because that's all that's going to happen.