Obama secretly ends program that let pilots carry guns

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: Andrew1990

Originally posted by: sandorski
Pilots having Guns was a stupid idea to begin with. Pilots have enough responsibility flying the damn plane. You want someone Armed on a Flight, hire Air Marshals. They can concentrate on Security and if/when a situation arises they will be trained far better than some pilot who has only been trained to point straight and shoot.

In short, arming Pilots was a half-assed on the cheap solution that makes no sense.

I would think that the pilots would have to be trained in use of a fire arm before being given one.

They do, from TSA's websiteTSA's website:

Federal Flight Deck Officers are trained by the Federal Air Marshal Service on the use of firearms, use of force, legal issues, defensive tactics, the psychology of survival and program standard operating procedures.

Andrew1990: Although, seperating the pilots from the passengers is the most EFFICIENT way of avoiding conflict.

The paramount consideration should be security, not efficiency. I see nothing that precludes a layered defense, particularly since the behavior of Federal Flight Deck Officers has apparently been exemplary. I'd rather rely on the pilot being able to actively defend the flight deck as opposed to hoping that a passive defense, which could probably be breached with enough time and effort, can withstand a determined assault.

As for those who say, "The terrorist could just smuggle a bomb on board." Were you even born on 9/11? You do understand WHY the program was initiated, right?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Where do you propose they put this bathroom anyways? These planes were designed decades ago.

Why don't we compromise and suggest they use cattle-prods or tasers? A gun is simply too dangerous in the air.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87
Where do you propose they put this bathroom anyways? These planes were designed decades ago.

Why don't we compromise and suggest they use cattle-prods or tasers? A gun is simply too dangerous in the air.

How many shots are those tasers?

You do realize that they can make special round for handguns, right?

Think about this. You are on a flight that's being hijacked and heading towards a building. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot didn't have a gun, so he didn't hurt anything?"

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87
Where do you propose they put this bathroom anyways? These planes were designed decades ago.

Why don't we compromise and suggest they use cattle-prods or tasers? A gun is simply too dangerous in the air.

How many shots are those tasers?

You do realize that they can make special round for handguns, right?

Think about this. You are on a flight that's being hijacked and heading towards a building. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot didn't have a gun, so he didn't hurt anything?"

No, my last thoughts would be "Why the fuck did the pilot let the terrorists into the cockpit? That was his strongest hand and he capitulated so quickly."

Think about it, once the terrorists are in the cockpit, GAME OVER.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Genx87
Where do you propose they put this bathroom anyways? These planes were designed decades ago.

Why don't we compromise and suggest they use cattle-prods or tasers? A gun is simply too dangerous in the air.

How many shots are those tasers?

You do realize that they can make special round for handguns, right?

Think about this. You are on a flight that's being hijacked and heading towards a building. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot didn't have a gun, so he didn't hurt anything?"

Think about this. You are on a flight and the pilot thinks he is dirty harry and is showing off his gun. Then it goes off and blows out a window, loses pressure and is headed for the ground. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun..."


Think about this. Unarmed person gets on plane and it takes off. He gets into the cockpit and gets gun and then takes over plane. He then heads it toward a building as he just shots the pilot and anybody that gets in his way. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun for this unarmed person to a hold of..."

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubeless
the first shot in the new war against gun ownership

Not really; gun-owners weren't allowed to carry their guns on planes before Obama was elected either.

if pilots aren't smart/safe/reliable enough to carry guns, who is?

I agree. We trust them enough to fly the plane, why is it we don't trust them enough to carry a gun?

Oh yeah, guns are "teh evil".

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubeless
the first shot in the new war against gun ownership

Not really; gun-owners weren't allowed to carry their guns on planes before Obama was elected either.

if pilots aren't smart/safe/reliable enough to carry guns, who is?

I agree. We trust them enough to fly the plane, why is it we don't trust them enough to carry a gun?

Oh yeah, guns are "teh evil".

Because they're trained to fly a plane and that is what they're skilled at (otherwise, they wouldn't apply for the job). Not everyone is equipped to handle a gun. That's like saying a doctor should be trusted with a gun since we trust them with your care.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubeless
the first shot in the new war against gun ownership

Not really; gun-owners weren't allowed to carry their guns on planes before Obama was elected either.

if pilots aren't smart/safe/reliable enough to carry guns, who is?

I agree. We trust them enough to fly the plane, why is it we don't trust them enough to carry a gun?

Oh yeah, guns are "teh evil".

Because they're trained to fly a plane and that is what they're skilled at (otherwise, they wouldn't apply for the job). Not everyone is equipped to handle a gun. That's like saying a doctor should be trusted with a gun since we trust them with your care.

LOL, most of the people flying the "big iron" are ex-jet jockeys. I think they know a thing or two about shooting.

 

[Possessed Freak]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Think about this. You are on a flight and the pilot thinks he is dirty harry and is showing off his gun. Then it goes off and blows out a window, loses pressure and is headed for the ground. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun..."


Think about this. Unarmed person gets on plane and it takes off. He gets into the cockpit and gets gun and then takes over plane. He then heads it toward a building as he just shots the pilot and anybody that gets in his way. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun for this unarmed person to a hold of..."

Didn't mythbusters prove that explosive decompression is impossible with a handgun?
How is the unarmed person getting the gun from the pilot?

Sorry, the scenarios for not having a gun are more far fetched then having one. In the cases of not having one, gross negligence must take place... pilot showing off his hand gun (to who? pretty sure the staff know about the weapons and don't need to see it), and not securing the firearm to allow a passenger to confiscate it unknowingly. The same arguments can be said about what's stopping the pilot from getting hammered and crashing the plane, what's stopping the pilot from saying 'screw it' and getting all suicidal and taking the plane with him?

I say we can't trust the pilots, end all flights and stay home!

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubeless
the first shot in the new war against gun ownership

Not really; gun-owners weren't allowed to carry their guns on planes before Obama was elected either.

if pilots aren't smart/safe/reliable enough to carry guns, who is?

I agree. We trust them enough to fly the plane, why is it we don't trust them enough to carry a gun?

Oh yeah, guns are "teh evil".

Because they're trained to fly a plane and that is what they're skilled at (otherwise, they wouldn't apply for the job). Not everyone is equipped to handle a gun. That's like saying a doctor should be trusted with a gun since we trust them with your care.

LOL, most of the people flying the "big iron" are ex-jet jockeys. I think they know a thing or two about shooting.

And most of those pilots have been with airlines for decades. What you don't use, you lose. Besides, how many times do you think a fighter pilot uses the pistol they gave him?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Possessed Freak

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Think about this. You are on a flight and the pilot thinks he is dirty harry and is showing off his gun. Then it goes off and blows out a window, loses pressure and is headed for the ground. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun..."


Think about this. Unarmed person gets on plane and it takes off. He gets into the cockpit and gets gun and then takes over plane. He then heads it toward a building as he just shots the pilot and anybody that gets in his way. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun for this unarmed person to a hold of..."

Didn't mythbusters prove that explosive decompression is impossible with a handgun?
How is the unarmed person getting the gun from the pilot?

Sorry, the scenarios for not having a gun are more far fetched then having one. In the cases of not having one, gross negligence must take place... pilot showing off his hand gun (to who? pretty sure the staff know about the weapons and don't need to see it), and not securing the firearm to allow a passenger to confiscate it unknowingly. The same arguments can be said about what's stopping the pilot from getting hammered and crashing the plane, what's stopping the pilot from saying 'screw it' and getting all suicidal and taking the plane with him?

I say we can't trust the pilots, end all flights and stay home!

The trick is to take something that happened, then make superfluous hypotheticals to invalidate the former.

It's like this:
Statement- Increasing the number of police in area X can reduce crime.
Response- But police have guns. If you put more police in that area, then gangs could jump them and steal their weapons. That would result in more crime.

Welcome to P&N logic

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: jpeyton
He's smart to end the program.

Why do pilots need guns when about $200 worth of door reinforcements will keep them safe inside the cockpit?

he's stupid to end the program.

the pilot having a gun improves the chance that those onboard will survive if the bad guy uses $20 worth of explosive or corrosive to get through your $200 door...

and nothing personal, but you are not too bright yourself if you think that any mod to a jumbo jet costs 'about $200'...

Why? Pilots are just smart enough to land a plane. Some don't and land them poorly. Now you want joe or jane pilot AKA captain to carry a gun that they probably don't have any training on.

Sorry to burst your bubble but this is a good thing. I'd rather have the computer land the plane and keep the guns to trained secret service.

Thanks, but no thanks.

And before you get your panties all wadded up in a knot... Some of these pilots are Arab descent ... hey look nothing on them but say they got an itch ... now your just arming someone that doesn't have any business having a gun on a jet airliner.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: jpeyton
He's smart to end the program.

Why do pilots need guns when about $200 worth of door reinforcements will keep them safe inside the cockpit?

he's stupid to end the program.

the pilot having a gun improves the chance that those onboard will survive if the bad guy uses $20 worth of explosive or corrosive to get through your $200 door...

and nothing personal, but you are not too bright yourself if you think that any mod to a jumbo jet costs 'about $200'...

Why? Pilots are just smart enough to land a plane. Some don't and land them poorly. Now you want joe or jane pilot AKA captain to carry a gun that they probably don't have any training on.

Sorry to burst your bubble but this is a good thing. I'd rather have the computer land the plane and keep the guns to trained secret service.

Thanks, but no thanks.

And before you get your panties all wadded up in a knot... Some of these pilots are Arab descent ... hey look nothing on them but say they got an itch ... now your just arming someone that doesn't have any business having a gun on a jet airliner.

So they don't get training?

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubeless
the first shot in the new war against gun ownership

Not really; gun-owners weren't allowed to carry their guns on planes before Obama was elected either.

if pilots aren't smart/safe/reliable enough to carry guns, who is?

I agree. We trust them enough to fly the plane, why is it we don't trust them enough to carry a gun?

Oh yeah, guns are "teh evil".

Because they're trained to fly a plane and that is what they're skilled at (otherwise, they wouldn't apply for the job). Not everyone is equipped to handle a gun. That's like saying a doctor should be trusted with a gun since we trust them with your care.

LOL, most of the people flying the "big iron" are ex-jet jockeys. I think they know a thing or two about shooting.

And most of those pilots have been with airlines for decades. What you don't use, you lose. Besides, how many times do you think a fighter pilot uses the pistol they gave him?

Go ahead and spin your straw into gold, I don't care what ridiculous spin you want to try and put on this. I would trust a major airline pilot having a gun in the cockpit. It makes perfect sense to me.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Pilots having Guns was a stupid idea to begin with. Pilots have enough responsibility flying the damn plane. You want someone Armed on a Flight, hire Air Marshals. They can concentrate on Security and if/when a situation arises they will be trained far better than some pilot who has only been trained to point straight and shoot.

In short, arming Pilots was a half-assed on the cheap solution that makes no sense.

lol lol lol... armed pilots are a huge deterrent against terrorist who only have box cutters.... or use a hostage to get in the cockpit. if you cant understand that then you are hopeless.

its a good program and in no way does it bother me if i knew the Frontier pilot that was flying me to Indy had a gun. in fact it would make me feel safer.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski
In short, arming Pilots were a half-assed on the cheap solution that acted as an ever-present final line of defense in the case of a hijacking

fixed.

Taking away a pilot's right to carry a gun is fucking dumb. Period.

You gun grabbing assholes really shouldn't leave your homes... really... the big black scary assault pilots are coming to gets you!!!!11

:roll:

Like I said, hire an Air Marshall. If a Hijacker takes over you need more than a Pilot trained to use Guns. You need someone trained in Tactics. It was a stupid policy.

Does anybody have a Constitutional Right to "Carry"?

the pilots are not armed to take out terrorist in the cabin. they have guns to KEEP CONTROL OF THE COCKPIT

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: cubeless
the first shot in the new war against gun ownership

Not really; gun-owners weren't allowed to carry their guns on planes before Obama was elected either.

if pilots aren't smart/safe/reliable enough to carry guns, who is?

I agree. We trust them enough to fly the plane, why is it we don't trust them enough to carry a gun?

Oh yeah, guns are "teh evil".

Because they're trained to fly a plane and that is what they're skilled at (otherwise, they wouldn't apply for the job). Not everyone is equipped to handle a gun. That's like saying a doctor should be trusted with a gun since we trust them with your care.

LOL, most of the people flying the "big iron" are ex-jet jockeys. I think they know a thing or two about shooting.

And most of those pilots have been with airlines for decades. What you don't use, you lose. Besides, how many times do you think a fighter pilot uses the pistol they gave him?

Go ahead and spin your straw into gold, I don't care what ridiculous spin you want to try and put on this. I would trust a major airline pilot having a gun in the cockpit. It makes perfect sense to me.

If it makes so much sense why do you think it wasn't done much earlier? After all, hijackings have been around for decades.

 

[OutHouse]

if Obama wants to do something to gain brownie points lift the ban on taking off our shoes when we go through airport security.

all because one nut 4 years ago tried to light his shoe bomb we ALL have to take off our shoes. fricken stupid

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski
In short, arming Pilots were a half-assed on the cheap solution that acted as an ever-present final line of defense in the case of a hijacking

fixed.

Taking away a pilot's right to carry a gun is fucking dumb. Period.

You gun grabbing assholes really shouldn't leave your homes... really... the big black scary assault pilots are coming to gets you!!!!11

:roll:

Like I said, hire an Air Marshall. If a Hijacker takes over you need more than a Pilot trained to use Guns. You need someone trained in Tactics. It was a stupid policy.

Does anybody have a Constitutional Right to "Carry"?

the pilots are not armed to take out terrorist in the cabin. they have guns to KEEP CONTROL OF THE COCKPIT

If that's the point then why don't they just keep it locked at all times?

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: ericlp

Originally posted by: cubeless

Originally posted by: jpeyton
He's smart to end the program.

Why do pilots need guns when about $200 worth of door reinforcements will keep them safe inside the cockpit?

he's stupid to end the program.

the pilot having a gun improves the chance that those onboard will survive if the bad guy uses $20 worth of explosive or corrosive to get through your $200 door...

and nothing personal, but you are not too bright yourself if you think that any mod to a jumbo jet costs 'about $200'...

Why? Pilots are just smart enough to land a plane. Some don't and land them poorly. Now you want joe or jane pilot AKA captain to carry a gun that they probably don't have any training on.

Sorry to burst your bubble but this is a good thing. I'd rather have the computer land the plane and keep the guns to trained secret service.

Thanks, but no thanks.

And before you get your panties all wadded up in a knot... Some of these pilots are Arab descent ... hey look nothing on them but say they got an itch ... now your just arming someone that doesn't have any business having a gun on a jet airliner.

most notice i said MOST but not all pilots are prior military. so yes most pilots flying commercial planes have had extensive weapons training.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Possessed Freak

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Think about this. You are on a flight and the pilot thinks he is dirty harry and is showing off his gun. Then it goes off and blows out a window, loses pressure and is headed for the ground. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun..."


Think about this. Unarmed person gets on plane and it takes off. He gets into the cockpit and gets gun and then takes over plane. He then heads it toward a building as he just shots the pilot and anybody that gets in his way. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun for this unarmed person to a hold of..."

Didn't mythbusters prove that explosive decompression is impossible with a handgun?
How is the unarmed person getting the gun from the pilot?

Sorry, the scenarios for not having a gun are more far fetched then having one. In the cases of not having one, gross negligence must take place... pilot showing off his hand gun (to who? pretty sure the staff know about the weapons and don't need to see it), and not securing the firearm to allow a passenger to confiscate it unknowingly. The same arguments can be said about what's stopping the pilot from getting hammered and crashing the plane, what's stopping the pilot from saying 'screw it' and getting all suicidal and taking the plane with him?

I say we can't trust the pilots, end all flights and stay home!

If the bullet blows out a window, that's a problem.


Bad example since many pilots have been caught drunk and I have read several stories about small planes crashing from drunk pilots. Let alone 1 pilot already was playing with his gun and it went off during flight.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: sandorski
In short, arming Pilots were a half-assed on the cheap solution that acted as an ever-present final line of defense in the case of a hijacking

fixed.

Taking away a pilot's right to carry a gun is fucking dumb. Period.

You gun grabbing assholes really shouldn't leave your homes... really... the big black scary assault pilots are coming to gets you!!!!11

:roll:

Like I said, hire an Air Marshall. If a Hijacker takes over you need more than a Pilot trained to use Guns. You need someone trained in Tactics. It was a stupid policy.

Does anybody have a Constitutional Right to "Carry"?

the pilots are not armed to take out terrorist in the cabin. they have guns to KEEP CONTROL OF THE COCKPIT

If that's the point then why don't they just keep it locked at all times?

They should. They should also have an active means of dealing with the situation in case the door fails, and yes doors can be breached, including the apparently "magic" ones put in place.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Not onyl what Red wrote but also...

Pilot's gun discharges on US Airways flight

But seems the program got off to a bang. :roll:

Oh wow, so in what 8 years since they allowed pilots to carry a weapon one accidentally discharged resulting in no injury?!?!?!?!? Call the whambulance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hahaha!

Well, crying about it isn't gonna do you any good. If I remember correctly, Obama is now the president and he's making some good changes...

I suggest you shut your pie hole and deal with it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Possessed Freak

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Think about this. You are on a flight and the pilot thinks he is dirty harry and is showing off his gun. Then it goes off and blows out a window, loses pressure and is headed for the ground. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun..."


Think about this. Unarmed person gets on plane and it takes off. He gets into the cockpit and gets gun and then takes over plane. He then heads it toward a building as he just shots the pilot and anybody that gets in his way. Will your last thoughts be "at least the pilot had a gun for this unarmed person to a hold of..."

Didn't mythbusters prove that explosive decompression is impossible with a handgun?
How is the unarmed person getting the gun from the pilot?

Sorry, the scenarios for not having a gun are more far fetched then having one. In the cases of not having one, gross negligence must take place... pilot showing off his hand gun (to who? pretty sure the staff know about the weapons and don't need to see it), and not securing the firearm to allow a passenger to confiscate it unknowingly. The same arguments can be said about what's stopping the pilot from getting hammered and crashing the plane, what's stopping the pilot from saying 'screw it' and getting all suicidal and taking the plane with him?

I say we can't trust the pilots, end all flights and stay home!

If the bullet blows out a window, that's a problem.


Bad example since many pilots have been caught drunk and I have read several stories about small planes crashing from drunk pilots. Let alone 1 pilot already was playing with his gun and it went off during flight.

So just how many pilots have gone off half cocked and shot something? My guess it's less than the number of planes that crashed on 9/11

 

[Possessed Freak]

Originally posted by: Dari
If it makes so much sense why do you think it wasn't done much earlier? After all, hijackings have been around for decades.

Hijackings were just reroutings. Why risk the plane if it is just being rerouted to Cuba? After 9/11, you can no longer let the hijacking occur. If you are a passenger pre 9/11, would you risk your life thinking that the plane will just be at another country and you won't be harmed regardless? After... do you let it happen? It took *2* cases for the third's passengers to say absolutely not and they risked their lives to make sure the flight could not hit a building and instead crashed in backcountry PA.