Obama releasing torture memos. Change we can believe in.

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
ya, i am sure he will release ALL of the memos, with information that we have received... all of them, uhhuh, sure...

Any evidence he's not, or are you just in the mood to use the same arguments used to prove the moon landing was faked?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: OCguy

It looks like a bunch of conclusions being drawn without real proof.

Got a hard-news story?

People die in prisons/jails in the US all the time.

If you look at the links provided in that story, one is a list of the autopsy findings.

To quote from one of them:

Manner of death: homicide...According to report provided by the US army CID, the detainee was shackled to the top of a doorframe with a gag in his mouth at the time he lost consciousness and became pulseless. The severe blunt force injuries, the hanging position, and the obstruction of the oral cavity with a gag contributed to this individual's death. DOD 00329 refers to this case as "gagged in standing restraint" DOD 003329 refers to this case as "1 blunt force trama and choking; gagged in standing restraint." DOD 003324 refers to this case with a note indicating "Q[uestioned] by OGA [Other Governmental Agency - non-military, often refers to CIA], gagged in standing restraint."

Another one:

Cause of death: Asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression. Manner of Death: Homicide. Significant findings of the autopsy included rib fractures and numerous bruises, some of which were patterned due to impacts with a blunt object. DOD 003329 refers to this case as "1 blunt force trauma and choking; died during interrogation." DOD 003325 refers to this case with note "Q[uestioned] by MI [Military Intelligence], died during interrogation."

One last one:

According to investigating agents, during interrogation of the detainee, a hood made of synthetic material was placed over the head and neck of the detainee. He died while detained at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Cause of death: Blunt force injuries complicated by compromised respiration. Manner of Death: Homicide. DOD 003329 refers to this case as "1 blunt force trauma and choking; died during interrogation." DOD 003325 refers to this case with the notation "Q[uestioned] by OGA [Other Governmental Agency - non-military, often refers to the CIA] and NSWT [Navy Seals] died during interrogation."

I think that's some pretty damning evidence.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Republicans threatening to attack his nominees could be one.

I would take anything in that article with a large grain of salt, but it's a possibility.

Is that before or after we attack Iran and cancel the 2008 election?

Huh? Don't be an idiot. I said I don't know if it's true or not, but it would hardly be news for a political party to threaten to do something of this sort to prevent the disclosure of embarrassing information.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Phokus



I didn't say by waterboarding

From a quick search:

*snip*

It looks like a bunch of conclusions being drawn without real proof.

Got a hard-news story?

People die in prisons/jails in the US all the time.

There are dozens of documented cases of deaths while in US custody.
http://www.humanrightsfirst.or..._law/etn/dic/index.asp

And these memos are going to address these deaths in custody?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Huh? Don't be an idiot. I said I don't know if it's true or not, but it would hardly be news for a political party to threaten to do something of this sort to prevent the disclosure of embarrassing information.

I dont know if its true or not, but our President is close with a rapist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...sed-brit_n_185968.html


See how fun it is?


On topic:


Is Obama going to release information on the deaths in custody that Jonks posted? If not, is he part of it for covering it up?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Huh? Don't be an idiot. I said I don't know if it's true or not, but it would hardly be news for a political party to threaten to do something of this sort to prevent the disclosure of embarrassing information.

I dont know if its true or not, but our President is close with a rapist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...sed-brit_n_185968.html


See how fun it is?

On topic:

Is Obama going to release information on the deaths in custody that Jonks posted? If not, is he part of it for covering it up?

Are you retarded? The story you linked seems reasonably credible to me. Obama's half-brother that he hasn't seen in two decades might certainly be a rapist in Kenya. I guess we'll just have to wait and see? What you're linking isn't disproving my point in any way. In fact, I can't possibly understand what you thought you were proving by linking it to begin with.

My link proposed a reasonable scenario for why Obama might be reluctant to release these memos, in line with what many political parties have done in the past. Sure it doesn't have to be true, but it's certainly something worth considering.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Are you retarded? The story you linked seems reasonably credible to me. Obama's half-brother that he hasn't seen in two decades might certainly be a rapist in Kenya. I guess we'll just have to wait and see? What you're linking isn't disproving my point in any way. In fact, I can't possibly understand what you thought you were proving by linking it to begin with.

My link proposed a reasonable scenario for why Obama might be reluctant to release these memos, in line with what many political parties have done in the past. Sure it doesn't have to be true, but it's certainly something worth considering.

So then Obama has been internally battling over the idea of releaseing torture memos due to politics? Wouldnt it be the right thing to do no matter what?

 

[jackschmittusa]

IMHO, the only relevant point to this action; is Obama doing the right thing? Discussions of any motivations, consequences, or pressure to not release may be interesting, but completely secondary.

I conclude that he is doing the right thing.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Are you retarded? The story you linked seems reasonably credible to me. Obama's half-brother that he hasn't seen in two decades might certainly be a rapist in Kenya. I guess we'll just have to wait and see? What you're linking isn't disproving my point in any way. In fact, I can't possibly understand what you thought you were proving by linking it to begin with.

My link proposed a reasonable scenario for why Obama might be reluctant to release these memos, in line with what many political parties have done in the past. Sure it doesn't have to be true, but it's certainly something worth considering.

So then Obama has been internally battling over the idea of releaseing torture memos due to politics? Wouldnt it be the right thing to do no matter what?

OCGuy, the guy who attacks those who do the right thing after debate, and defends the guy who does the wrong thing after blocking debate.

 

[theeedude]

I'd rather have LOLCHANGE than LOLSAME

 

[Craig234]

I decided to count how many of our right-wing posters had posted a simple compliment for Obama fo rthi smajor decision out of the 34 posts in several hours. Answer: zero.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: Craig234
Those who care about morals and the morals and image of our nation can show it by not going to the Fox 'tea party' and instead expressing support for this decision.

I care about the morals and image of our nation but am struggling to see how this particular decision is related to whether or not someone supports the tea party protests. I msut be missing something here.

It's the new thing. If your are a liberal or democrat, associate anything and everything that doesn't fall in line with your beliefs as tea partying.

The people that support them and go to them understand it's not about taxes, it's about gov spending beyond it's means. Those that diride them and use it as an instult are the dumb asses that think it's about taxes.

So they used waterboarding, sleep depreviation and air conditioning. OMG the HORROR. Before this whole whoopdedo I remember people being outraged over tourture techniques employed by third world countries that included cutting off hands, feet, and other body parts. Murdering family members in front of other family members, rape, mutilation, ect.

And that was just a form of punishment for minor crimes. Now we have people openly fighting the US and we can't make them pull all nighters? No wonder America is going down the drain, there are more pussies here than at Lilith Fair.

 

[jonks]

Obama's statement on releasing the memos:

http://www.google.com/hostedne...ud-1ivw3Z2udQD97JOHV81

Obama statement on release of torture memos
By The Associated Press ? 1 hour ago

Text of a written statement by President Barack Obama on Thursday's release of four significant memos written by the Bush administration in 2002 and 2005 on the interrogation of terror detainees:

___

The Department of Justice will today release certain memos issued by the Office of Legal Counsel between 2002 and 2005 as part of an ongoing court case. These memos speak to techniques that were used in the interrogation of terrorism suspects during that period, and their release is required by the rule of law.

My judgment on the content of these memos is a matter of record. In one of my very first acts as President, I prohibited the use of these interrogation techniques by the United States because they undermine our moral authority and do not make us safer. Enlisting our values in the protection of our people makes us stronger and more secure. A democracy as resilient as ours must reject the false choice between our security and our ideals, and that is why these methods of interrogation are already a thing of the past.

But that is not what compelled the release of these legal documents today. While I believe strongly in transparency and accountability, I also believe that in a dangerous world, the United States must sometimes carry out intelligence operations and protect information that is classified for purposes of national security. I have already fought for that principle in court and will do so again in the future. However, after consulting with the attorney general, the director of national intelligence, and others, I believe that exceptional circumstances surround these memos and require their release.

First, the interrogation techniques described in these memos have already been widely reported. Second, the previous administration publicly acknowledged portions of the program and some of the practices associated with these memos. Third, I have already ended the techniques described in the memos through an executive order. Therefore, withholding these memos would only serve to deny facts that have been in the public domain for some time. This could contribute to an inaccurate accounting of the past, and fuel erroneous and inflammatory assumptions about actions taken by the United States.

In releasing these memos, it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution. The men and women of our intelligence community serve courageously on the front lines of a dangerous world. Their accomplishments are unsung and their names unknown, but because of their sacrifices, every single American is safer. We must protect their identities as vigilantly as they protect our security, and we must provide them with the confidence that they can do their jobs.

Going forward, it is my strong belief that the United States has a solemn duty to vigorously maintain the classified nature of certain activities and information related to national security. This is an extraordinarily important responsibility of the presidency, and it is one that I will carry out assertively irrespective of any political concern. Consequently, the exceptional circumstances surrounding these memos should not be viewed as an erosion of the strong legal basis for maintaining the classified nature of secret activities. I will always do whatever is necessary to protect the national security of the United States.

This is a time for reflection, not retribution. I respect the strong views and emotions that these issues evoke. We have been through a dark and painful chapter in our history. But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past. Our national greatness is embedded in America's ability to right its course in concert with our core values, and to move forward with confidence. That is why we must resist the forces that divide us, and instead come together on behalf of our common future.

The United States is a nation of laws. My administration will always act in accordance with those laws, and with an unshakeable commitment to our ideals. That is why we have released these memos, and that is why we have taken steps to ensure that the actions described within them never take place again.

Man, it's got to be really hard to be a right winger trying to get all pissed off at something that makes so much sense.

The memos here:
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html

 

[CADsortaGUY]

lol, the "torture" memo said they could put a guy in a box with a caterpillar! Oh teh horraaarrs!!!
IMO, that part should have been redacted...now the terrorists will train to overcome their fear of teh bugz!. :laugh:

 

[First]

Originally posted by: eskimospy


Are you retarded?

You know the answer, no point in asking.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Craig234
I decided to count how many of our right-wing posters had posted a simple compliment for Obama fo rthi smajor decision out of the 34 posts in several hours. Answer: zero.

Why would I compliment this? You want me to compliment this suggesting it's "transparency" when it could just as likely be politics? Is this all of them? If not, how is it truly "transparency"?
Compliment the release of a couple memos changes what regarding actual torture? If you answer nothing - you are correct. So again, what exactly are people supposed to be complimenting? Just curious.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Craig234
I decided to count how many of our right-wing posters had posted a simple compliment for Obama fo rthi smajor decision out of the 34 posts in several hours. Answer: zero.

Why would I compliment this? You want me to compliment this suggesting it's "transparency" when it could just as likely be politics? Is this all of them? If not, how is it truly "transparency"?
Compliment the release of a couple memos changes what regarding actual torture? If you answer nothing - you are correct. So again, what exactly are people supposed to be complimenting? Just curious.

It doesn't change anything regarding torture because one of Obama's first executive orders banned torture. And if you are going to use the "it was politics" defense for why you won't compliment the move, then you are pretty much never going to ever compliment anything he does since everything the president does is related in some way to politics. Or are you only going to compliment him on actions with which you agree despite those also being political? Whatever, we know where you stand.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Are you retarded? The story you linked seems reasonably credible to me. Obama's half-brother that he hasn't seen in two decades might certainly be a rapist in Kenya. I guess we'll just have to wait and see? What you're linking isn't disproving my point in any way. In fact, I can't possibly understand what you thought you were proving by linking it to begin with.

My link proposed a reasonable scenario for why Obama might be reluctant to release these memos, in line with what many political parties have done in the past. Sure it doesn't have to be true, but it's certainly something worth considering.

So then Obama has been internally battling over the idea of releaseing torture memos due to politics? Wouldnt it be the right thing to do no matter what?

Of course not. Transparency in government is a good thing, but it's not the only thing.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Craig234
I decided to count how many of our right-wing posters had posted a simple compliment for Obama fo rthi smajor decision out of the 34 posts in several hours. Answer: zero.

Why would I compliment this? You want me to compliment this suggesting it's "transparency" when it could just as likely be politics? Is this all of them? If not, how is it truly "transparency"?
Compliment the release of a couple memos changes what regarding actual torture? If you answer nothing - you are correct. So again, what exactly are people supposed to be complimenting? Just curious.

It doesn't change anything regarding torture because one of Obama's first executive orders banned torture. And if you are going to use the "it was politics" defense for why you won't compliment the move, then you are pretty much never going to ever compliment anything he does since everything the president does is related in some way to politics. Or are you only going to compliment him on actions with which you agree despite those also being political? Whatever, we know where you stand.

No, I'm not using as an excuse - I'm stating that it very well could be part of why they were released and not some altruistic reason. IF this was really about transparency then why the big internal debate? It just doesn't add up and yet you libs want everyone to compliment BHO on it?

 

[ZeGermans]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
lol, the "torture" memo said they could put a guy in a box with a caterpillar! Oh teh horraaarrs!!!
IMO, that part should have been redacted...now the terrorists will train to overcome their fear of teh bugz!. :laugh:

haha get fucked you fascist

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: OCguy
Well if "waterboarding" is as bad as it got, this is going to be a big deal how? The public already knows that we waterboarded.

If something worse came up, then I can see this being an issue.

People have died under our custody due to torture

Proof someone died from waterboarding?

Im sure it could happen, but id like to read more on this incident you are referring to.

I remember we killed an iragi general during an "interrogation", when they taped him into a sleeping bag, and sat on his chest so he couldn't breath (or something along those lines)

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Craig234
I decided to count how many of our right-wing posters had posted a simple compliment for Obama fo rthi smajor decision out of the 34 posts in several hours. Answer: zero.

Why would I compliment this? You want me to compliment this suggesting it's "transparency" when it could just as likely be politics? Is this all of them? If not, how is it truly "transparency"?
Compliment the release of a couple memos changes what regarding actual torture? If you answer nothing - you are correct. So again, what exactly are people supposed to be complimenting? Just curious.

It doesn't change anything regarding torture because one of Obama's first executive orders banned torture. And if you are going to use the "it was politics" defense for why you won't compliment the move, then you are pretty much never going to ever compliment anything he does since everything the president does is related in some way to politics. Or are you only going to compliment him on actions with which you agree despite those also being political? Whatever, we know where you stand.

No, I'm not using as an excuse - I'm stating that it very well could be part of why they were released and not some altruistic reason. IF this was really about transparency then why the big internal debate? It just doesn't add up and yet you libs want everyone to compliment BHO on it?

I think eskimo laid it out pretty clearly. Transparency is one of many issues they weighed. The effect on intelligence gathering and chain of command within the FBI/CIA was undoubtedly another.

Why do you make it all black or white? Go back a page and read the statement. Obviously you don't think Obama should tell the American people everything about every classified report he reads in the name of transparency. His goal was to increase transparency, not end executive privilege and all classified documentation.

In the end, after much debate within his administration, he decided to release the memos, and transparency was undoubtedly one of the reasons, tempered by the mitigating circumstances as laid out in the statement. Why should he not get credit for the ultimate decision if one agrees with it?

 

[alpineranger]

These documents are really interesting. They indicate that the techniques used were designed to cause no real pain or injury, and were all used to train us military personnel. I was expecting a lot worse. The explanation of waterboarding is nothing like what we see in the movies or tv.

edit: They also detail putting a guy in a box with a caterpillar or other harmless insect because he was afraid of insects.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: alpineranger
These documents are really interesting. They indicate that the techniques used were designed to cause no real pain or injury, and were all used to train us military personnel. I was expecting a lot worse. The explanation of waterboarding is nothing like what we see in the movies or tv.

edit: They also detail putting a guy in a box with a caterpillar or other harmless insect because he was afraid of insects.

convenient what you leave out

 

[jackschmittusa]

Cad is so accustomed to a leader acting instantly to his gut feelings that the idea of a leader actually taking the time to seek input and evaluate an action before implementing it must seem quite alien, even suspicious.