blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
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Well that may be. But to think no abuses took place since the Platt Amendment in 1903 until 2002 is outrageous. Come on man.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
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Its quite an interesting turn of events. Exposing the moral degeneracy of certain folks that either engaged in illegal torture or provided the fictional justification that somehow this will stand the muster of international war crimes. While fulfilling the Obama campaign promise that this crapola will come to a screeching halt the moment Obama was inaugurated. And then to add another contradiction, Obama pledges these miscreants will not be prosecuted under US law.
The point being, the miscreants now exposed to the light of day have every reason to pee their pants and they quite rightly should. To start out with, any Obama pledge is neither binding on international prosecutors or to all US prosecutors. What should rule the day, is that old dictum, if you do the crime, better be prepared to do the time.
The fact of international law violations are there for all to see, next step, prosecute those moral degenerates, or cut to the chase, and deport them to the Hague. GWB and Cheney to the Hague ASAP, and many GWB&co rats will just add to misery loves company. They knowing did the crime, why should they not do the time? Anything less than that sends the wrong message.
The point being, the miscreants now exposed to the light of day have every reason to pee their pants and they quite rightly should. To start out with, any Obama pledge is neither binding on international prosecutors or to all US prosecutors. What should rule the day, is that old dictum, if you do the crime, better be prepared to do the time.
The fact of international law violations are there for all to see, next step, prosecute those moral degenerates, or cut to the chase, and deport them to the Hague. GWB and Cheney to the Hague ASAP, and many GWB&co rats will just add to misery loves company. They knowing did the crime, why should they not do the time? Anything less than that sends the wrong message.
Well these abuses were systemic and codified through executive branch correspondence and directives to executive agencies such as the DoD. Again, I am aware of no such reported abuses, nor am I aware of even any accusations of abuse. You're just taking a gut feeling and trying to make an argument out of it... that doesn't work so well.
While abuses may have taken place sometime during that, I find it highly unlikely that it was done as a matter of policy as these memos were.
Gimme an I, gimme a C, gimme a C. Sure would be nice to resume our joining the ICC.
Doing that and it resulting in the prosecution for appropriate war crimes would be great.
Maybe Spain should have covert ops kidmap and extract the suspects for trial the way the CIA did in Italy, minus the trial part.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
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No, I'm not being obtuse. The problem is that you are overlooking a major point in the issue, either purposefully or simply because you haven't even considered it.
Do you think Iran, China, Egypt, et al have issued numerous lengthy legal opinions as to the legality of their actions regarding torture? Do they worry whether or not what they are adhering to any laws in the process? Have they put constraints on the methods they use?
The difference between legality and illegality is often a fine line. The memos explicitly spell out what that line is. They define how to remain within the borders of legality in applying the techniques. Comparing what we do to what they do is ridiculous.
Some people seem to want to equate all interrogation methods and lump them as , 'OMG! TORTURE.' Sorry, but that's disingenius and ignores the details.
nobodyknows
Diamond Member
- Sep 28, 2008
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No, you are a tool. You deliberately misinterpret and ignore what has happened, and selectively quote snippets here and there to try and obfuscate what is going on.
You obviously had swallowed the Bush playbook of defining torture to whatever you want it to mean, so you can proudly claim that we don't torture. The reality is 99% of the rest of the world (including our court system) would say that this is torture. Just because you and a few other loonies (like Yoo and Cheney) want to claim otherwise doesn't make it so.
To put this in simple terms for you:
1. If I, a private citizen, did these acts to you, I'd be arrested and convicted.
2. If I , a policeman, did these acts to a suspect, I'd be arrested and convicted.
3. If I, a FBI agent, did these acts to a prisoner, I'd be arrested and convicted.
4. If I, a member of the military, did that do a POW, I'd be arrested and convicted.
Do you have a plausible reason how the CIA (American citizens, bound by US federal law) can somehow not get arrested?
Oh, and read this article , where we are obligated by law to investigate and prosecute this. Again, That's our law. Do you somehow feel like you are allowed to ignore (IOW break) the law?
First, that's irrelevant and you know it. Illegal acts are illegal, no prior history or anything else affects that. So any illegal actions by previous presidents has *nothing* to do with this. You know it, but nice attempt at a troll to downplay this.
Second, find some evidence. If you do, then they should be prosecuted as well.
Are you somehow saying if someone else broke the law and got away with it, that makes it OK in some fashoin? Really? What a noval legal approach.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
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The TLC argument basically boils down to, someone else also commits international war crimes, so therefore we should too.
Another redacted piece of stinking thinking by TLC, who again seems to want to occupy the moral low ground with a poorly reasoned argument.
The point being, these torture memo's now released amount to nothing more than the confessions of people who willfully violated international sanctions against war crimes.
Another redacted piece of stinking thinking by TLC, who again seems to want to occupy the moral low ground with a poorly reasoned argument.
The point being, these torture memo's now released amount to nothing more than the confessions of people who willfully violated international sanctions against war crimes.
I never compared what we do to what other countries do, what they do is irrelevant in this case. You are being disingenuous by attempting to knock down the straw man of 'some people want to equate all interrogation methods and lump them as torture'. I'm unaware of a single person that has ever attempted to do that, and it's a dishonest representation of the argument against torture in this case.
Those memos tried to inform people on how to skirt the law through such pathetic reasoning such as "if you told him the bug was poisonous, that's torture. If you just let him think it's poisonous without flat out telling him it's fine." They mention the use of techniques that have been specifically referred to by the US State Department as torture. Then they try to excuse them away.
Like I said, it's not rocket science.
I should rephrase that to say what I meant: there are many prisoners there it did not set free. *Eventually*, it did set some free.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
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Maybe you haven't noticed, but the memos were very explicit about not breaking any laws in the process. That's the point I was making but it seems to have gone completely over your head in your little emotional tantrum of a response.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
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You certainly did compare them by proxy. You said we accused others of doing the very same thing. I was pointing out how we don't do the very same thing. Other than that, sorry that you don't appreciate the finer points between legality and illegality. Scoffing at it doesn't change the fact that it's part and parcel of our legal system.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
The TLC point of, "Maybe you haven't noticed, but the memos were very explicit about not breaking any laws in the process." , is about as valid as the Nazi point that if you simply call jews not human, its not murder.
The only people these people fooled is themselves, as they made legal sand castles in the air. And their arguments will not last more than a few milliseconds in an international tribunal before they are laughed out of court.
The only people these people fooled is themselves, as they made legal sand castles in the air. And their arguments will not last more than a few milliseconds in an international tribunal before they are laughed out of court.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
lol. LL invoking Godwin's Law. What a surprise.
:roll:
If you can't figure out the divide between causing no lasting harm, by law, and murder, then there's no hope for you and yours. Your partisanism trumps any common sense whatsoever.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
By law it does, LL, and that's where you lose.
I think the left is deflated after reading the actual content of these memos. They thought they'd be some sort of smoking gun and a huge indictment of the Bush admin. Bummer for them, but overstatement born of partisanism is not an unknown quantity from either side when it comes to politics. It always leaves both sides looking like idiots.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,360
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Uh, no Im not saying that at all. Dont paint me into a corner.
I agree 100%.
Tell me this. Which is a bigger crime-commiting the acts themselves, or knowing they are/were commited and not doing anything about it? Before you answer, you may want to get your congressman's phone number handy to call and protest. If Bush is to be prosecuted for these crimes, then every member of the senate who stands idly by and does nothing should be prosecuted as an accesory for doing nothing. Why is it when its so clear to us...you know, the armchair lawyers here...that crimes were commited, and yet those with the power to do something about it do nothing? Can you answer that?
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,360
- 126
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