Obama: Raise Taxes, Penalize Business

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Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
0
Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Carbo
So far, this empty suit has been specific on two things: he is going to increase the Capital Gains tax, and now he wants to impose a windfall profits tax. Do you see a pattern here?

Yes I do. He is going to make those that have reaped the biggest benefits over the Bush admin's reign to pay back some of it to lessen the load for the other 99% of us.

And negate the lessened load by higher prices and lower pay! YAY OBAMA!

and btw, capital gains tax now will hit a huge chunk of the middle class.

Not in a free market. If they increase prices, demand will drop and they'll make even less money.
 

Eeezee

Diamond Member
Jul 23, 2005
9,922
0
0
Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Carbo
So far, this empty suit has been specific on two things: he is going to increase the Capital Gains tax, and now he wants to impose a windfall profits tax. Do you see a pattern here?

Yes I do. He is going to make those that have reaped the biggest benefits over the Bush admin's reign to pay back some of it to lessen the load for the other 99% of us.

I'm not entirely sure where I stand on that.. I mean, I'm certainly part of the 99%.. it's definitely good for me. But I'm cursed with the gift of empathy.. I can understand why the 1%'ers wouldn't be pleased with that turn of events..

I feel the same way about bans on cigarette smoking. I don't smoke. I hate the smell of cigarette smoke. Every time some local so-cal city bans smoking in public, I should be happy because it means that I wont have to smell it anymore.. but I'm not. I feel bad because it's the government treating people (who could be me under slightly different circumstances) unfairly.

It would be enough for corporations to only have to pay the same taxes as you or I. They shouldn't be able to get out of paying taxes via offshore accounts and other such loopholes but I don't agree with this windfall tax business either. You shouldn't be penalized for having good business.

I agree, if corporations had to pay the same taxes as the rest of us then things might be different and I might empathize with them. But since that isn't the case, we have to pile on more taxes until they eventually pay something reasonable back, just like the rest of us.

Either fix the current tax system (impossible) or lay on more taxes for the uber wealthy.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Craig234

Significant Estate Tax for the wealthy

Ive never understood the desire to tax estates. We'll agree to disagree but I think it's fucked up.

Originally posted by: Craig234
Invest in *opportunity creating* programs, e.g. education, healthcare, job assistance, and pay off the debt not to burden the taxpayers with the interest.

Yeah...because the government entitlement programs already in place doing these things runs so well :roll:
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Or, to be more accurate, taxing capital gains equitably with earned income will have a minuscule impact on a huge chunk of the middle class (wage earners) and a significant impact on the very wealthy.

because certainly the middle class doesn't have 401(k)s!

I don't get your point - 401/403's and other retirement annuity's are taxed as regular income upon withdraw as should be capital gains. The only 'middle class' capital gain most people get is their house sale which is already exempted from gains for everyone up to 250K/500K. How many middle class own a pipe line, a Mc Donalds, a apartment complex in order to to be hit with that generous 15%? None. Instead most middle class work and pay regular income tax in addition to SS/Medicare tax and often pay upwards of 30%. Yea that's fair. If there is one place I agree with Obama it's tax policy.

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Ive never understood the desire to tax estates.

lots of good reasons...


1. Better than taxing income since the people are dead and they no longer need money by definition since they are dead. People alive though should see a reduced rate because they need all the money they can to plan for retirement and buy more things. I'd much rather see no income tax than no estate tax purely from a usefulness/utility prospective.

2. If you don't tax estates there are people waiting for it which presents a series of problems. Like welfare knowing the state will take care of them - knowing you will be taken care of by Mommy and Daddy's money serves as a disincentivize work and be productive. "race of idle rich" -Winston Churchill

3. To minimize the perpetuation of wealth and thus power in wealthy families.

4. So Large fortunes are at least taxed capital gains. What I mean is when wealth transfers these fortunes represent unrealized capital gains which are not taxed. e.g. Ford's stock in 1935 is not worth the same as it is today and without a tax to account for the step up in basis at the time of death and transfer to heirs the forune will never be taxed as capital gains under the federal income tax.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
If we must have taxes, then the ideal system of taxation IMO is a 100% estate tax and no other taxes.

I have the utmost respect for self-made successful persons, but jack shit for those who have done nothing to deserve their wealth beyond being born into it. They are little different than welfare queens IMO.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: blackangst1

Ive never understood the desire to tax estates.

lots of good reasons...


1. Better than taxing income since the people are dead and they no longer need money by definition since they are dead. People alive though should see a reduced rate because they need all the money they can to plan for retirement and buy more things. I'd much rather see no income tax than no estate tax purely from a usefulness/utility prospective.

2. If you don't tax estates there are people waiting for it which presents a series of problems. Like welfare knowing the state will take care of them - knowing you will be taken care of by Mommy and Daddy's money serves as a disincentivize work and be productive. "race of idle rich" -Winston Churchill

3. To minimize the perpetuation of wealth and thus power in wealthy families.

4. So Large fortunes are at least taxed capital gains. What I mean is when wealth transfers these fortunes represent unrealized capital gains which are not taxed. e.g. Ford's stock in 1935 is not worth the same as it is today and without a tax to account for the step up in basis at the time of death and transfer to heirs the forune will never be taxed as capital gains under the federal income tax.

Good reasons in some people's mind. Not mine.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I could go any which way - the cream rises to the top under communism or capitalism. Just explaining the justification. Did you even read it?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Vic
If we must have taxes, then the ideal system of taxation IMO is a 100% estate tax and no other taxes.

I have the utmost respect for self-made successful persons, but jack shit for those who have done nothing to deserve their wealth beyond being born into it. They are little different than welfare queens IMO.
WTF, so the government should benefit from ones hard work and not the persons family? Sorry Comrade, I definitely don't agree with a 100% estate tax.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.

So you're stating that the middle class is any couple below $65,100 and singles below $32,550 in AGI (2008 break for the 15 to 25% marginal tax bracket)? I guess you're rich at those levels, LOL?

Middle class goes far above those levels.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.

So you're stating that the middle class is any couple below $65,100 and singles below $32,550 in AGI (2008 break for the 15 to 25% marginal tax bracket)? I guess you're rich at those levels, LOL?

Middle class goes far above those levels.

No it was actually around the 75K level that I was reading. And yes, that is middle class - no question about it. Does Obamessiah have a different definition of middle class? I'd love to hear where he thinks it starts and stops. :)
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.

So you're stating that the middle class is any couple below $65,100 and singles below $32,550 in AGI (2008 break for the 15 to 25% marginal tax bracket)? I guess you're rich at those levels, LOL?

Middle class goes far above those levels.

No it was actually around the 75K level that I was reading. And yes, that is middle class - no question about it. Does Obamessiah have a different definition of middle class? I'd love to hear where he thinks it starts and stops. :)


I don't know what he defines as middle class or upper but I have read that he was wanting to raise taxes on those making $250,000 per year. Maybe he considers anyone below $250,000 as middle class?

Not my definition but then again, $250,000 in certain parts of the country could seem like normal middle class rates based on the cost of living.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.

So you're stating that the middle class is any couple below $65,100 and singles below $32,550 in AGI (2008 break for the 15 to 25% marginal tax bracket)? I guess you're rich at those levels, LOL?

Middle class goes far above those levels.

No it was actually around the 75K level that I was reading. And yes, that is middle class - no question about it. Does Obamessiah have a different definition of middle class? I'd love to hear where he thinks it starts and stops. :)


I don't know what he defines as middle class or upper but I have read that he was wanting to raise taxes on those making $250,000 per year. Maybe he considers anyone below $250,000 as middle class?

Not my definition but then again, $250,000 in certain parts of the country could seem like normal middle class rates based on the cost of living.

~150K puts you in the top 5% ~375K puts you in the top 1%

Love to hear his definition of middle class.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Vic
If we must have taxes, then the ideal system of taxation IMO is a 100% estate tax and no other taxes.

I have the utmost respect for self-made successful persons, but jack shit for those who have done nothing to deserve their wealth beyond being born into it. They are little different than welfare queens IMO.
WTF, so the government should benefit from ones hard work and not the persons family? Sorry Comrade, I definitely don't agree with a 100% estate tax.

I'm pretty sure that works the other way around there, Red.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.[/q]

Ha ha ha.
McCain is already trying to scare people that obama is going to raise their taxes.
What percentage of people make over $250k and will have their taxes raised?

Scare tactics vs. cheap populism and pandering? I'll take the populism and pandering, thanks.

And pandering with phony tax cuts has been a winning Republican staple for years, why shouldn't Obama take a page out of the Republican playbook?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.

Ha ha ha.
McCain is already trying to scare people that obama is going to raise their taxes.
What percentage of people make over $250k and will have their taxes raised?

Scare tactics vs. cheap populism and pandering? I'll take the populism and pandering, thanks.

And pandering with phony tax cuts has been a winning Republican staple for years, why shouldn't Obama take a page out of the Republican playbook?

Except $250K isn't the number and McCain isn't the topic here. :)
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.

Ha ha ha.
McCain is already trying to scare people that obama is going to raise their taxes.
What percentage of people make over $250k and will have their taxes raised?

Scare tactics vs. cheap populism and pandering? I'll take the populism and pandering, thanks.

And pandering with phony tax cuts has been a winning Republican staple for years, why shouldn't Obama take a page out of the Republican playbook?

Except $250K isn't the number and McCain isn't the topic here. :)


$250,000 was quoted on CNN as the number on which Obama would raise taxes. Is that not what marincounty stated?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.

Ha ha ha.
McCain is already trying to scare people that obama is going to raise their taxes.
What percentage of people make over $250k and will have their taxes raised?

Scare tactics vs. cheap populism and pandering? I'll take the populism and pandering, thanks.

And pandering with phony tax cuts has been a winning Republican staple for years, why shouldn't Obama take a page out of the Republican playbook?

Except $250K isn't the number and McCain isn't the topic here. :)


$250,000 was quoted on CNN as the number on which Obama would raise taxes. Is that not what marincounty stated?

So all Bush's tax cuts up to $250K he'll keep? Dunno about that, it wasn't what I was reading.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: marincounty
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I was doing some reading today and came across something that stated Obama is now for a middle class tax cut and he's also for cutting retired people's tax to 0% if they make under $50K. First off, the middle class rate is at 15% right now. How low is he going to lower it? As to the old people tax. Why should someone's age matter when it comes to taxes? If you are an adult and have taxable income you should pay what everyone else in you income level pays.

Both of these stances by Obamessiah smack of cheap populism and pandering.

Ha ha ha.
McCain is already trying to scare people that obama is going to raise their taxes.
What percentage of people make over $250k and will have their taxes raised?

Scare tactics vs. cheap populism and pandering? I'll take the populism and pandering, thanks.

And pandering with phony tax cuts has been a winning Republican staple for years, why shouldn't Obama take a page out of the Republican playbook?

Except $250K isn't the number and McCain isn't the topic here. :)


$250,000 was quoted on CNN as the number on which Obama would raise taxes. Is that not what marincounty stated?

So all Bush's tax cuts up to $250K he'll keep? Dunno about that, it wasn't what I was reading.

I don't know. I'm simply relaying what CNN stated. Was stated that he would cut middle class taxes and raise taxes on those making $250,000+ per year. Didn't catch if he said anything about capital gains, but I assume that he would be raising those.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
And pandering with phony tax cuts has been a winning Republican staple for years, why shouldn't Obama take a page out of the Republican playbook?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Here's the way Obama's proposal shapes up, as near as I can tell-

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6346

As close to "real" numbers as we'll get... probably what should be referred to in discussion by both sides...

Nope, that doesn't show what Obama has stated, it's what CNN says would take place under their supposed tax policy. What exactly is the policy they are getting this all from? What does Obama consider "middle class".
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
You've apparently become somewhat addled and/or desperate in the recent past, CSG-

What would CNN and The Tax Policy Center base their conclusions on, if it weren't the proposals made by the candidates themselves?

It's not like these projections appear out of thin air, or from Dick Cheney's Ouija board...
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
You've apparently become somewhat addled and/or desperate in the recent past, CSG-

What would CNN and The Tax Policy Center base their conclusions on, if it weren't the proposals made by the candidates themselves?

It's not like these projections appear out of thin air, or from Dick Cheney's Ouija board...

And you've obviously been blinded by the "hope" shtick. What you posted was an analysis of the supposed result but not the actual policies and what Obama considers the "middle class" - which is what was being discussed.

Now if you were not replying the my line of conversation, then I apologize but it looks like you were engaging in it.