Obama Invokes Executive Privilege on Fast and Furious Documents

[Fern]

-snip-
The real question isn't what did Obama know & when did he know it, but rather where the orders for F&F originated, and the only way to know that is to follow them backwards up the chain of command. That's how real prosecutors proceed, not witch hunters.

Yes, the real question is who conceived F&F, who authorized it and who supervised it.

Holder is the top official here. Holder should have had those answers long ago. I find it inexcusable, unbelievable actually, that approx 1 1/2 years later this information remains unknown. This is Holder's fault.

I firmly believe that had Holder produced this info to the committee in a timely matter we wouldn't be where we are, and that this would be a non-issue by now.

Now, Holder has had to withdraw 3 factually incorrect statements. That is inexcusably sloppy and unprofessional. There's no way around the fact that by doing so he has appeared to be either incompetent or deceitful. In either case he has himself created a lack of trust, and compounds it by refusing to cooperate. He has brought this upon himself. And I believe Obama has needlessly pulled himself into it.

Just produce the damned report: A thorough, professional and unimpeachable report detailing the basic facts about F&F.

And "No", this isn't a witchhunt. There are no such things as witches. Running around looking for some and trumping up fake evidence against someone is one thing. This is completely different. People are dead and a couple thousand pretty serious weapons are in the hands of criminals, all without the knowledge or permission of Mexico. This is a serious problem, not some dreamed up problem like "witches".

Fern

 

[Jhhnn]

Did you read this? ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations

As I pointed out earlier, such regs have no effect whatsoever on legitimate purchasers. zero, zip, zilch, nothing, nada.

If gun rights advocates really wanted to stop guns from being illegally exported to Mexico, they'd allow the BATF the tools to accomplish that, provided there is no effect on legit buyers. Obviously, current efforts by their champions are not intended to accomplish any such thing. It's just an exercise in concern trolling.

 

[TerryMathews]

Not really. It's just inconsistent with the opinions about the documents you've accepted as fact.

The best part of the Fortune piece? This-



Equally amazing is the ability of the gun worshipping fringe to keep their noses embedded in their leadership's buttcracks through the execution of the doublespeak equivalent of a triple Lutz... because they hate the ATF for doing their job & for supposedly not doing their job all at the same time...

Of course the guns are legal. The purchases weren't. What is your point?

And you're mistaken. We hate the administration and the ATF for talking about the illegal flow of guns and the need to do something about it, the whole time it's the ATF flowing those guns.

Finally, yes I do accept that opinion. It hadn't been retracted, unlike Holders 3 recent statements.

What's next? Obama on national television: "If I had a son, he would look just like Holder?"

 

[zinfamous]

Correct. That's why gun sales skyrocketed (as in over 500%) and STILL surging before the election and for at least a year afterwards. It was all the thing's Obama has said in the past of what he would do regarding gun regulation.

This operation was a means to supply guns to mexico so Obama could say to the public "see what a big problem this is! We need to crack down with some common sense gun regulation".

Folks only need to look back at 2009 and how much this "guns flowing from US to mexico" was and how congress "needed to do something".

So obama - when did you know about fast and furious and what did you know? And did you order, direct or execute, or approve of it's operation?

If so = treason.

Yup. Nothing like a black man in the office to get the god-fearing rednecks and hillbillies all scurred.


BTW, you guys really need to get your history straight: Gun control has only become more lax over the previous 3 decades. The only thing that has ever happened, is that regulations have been repealed. The history of the US and Fed regulations is that guns have been tightly, tightly controlled, due in most part to the first 200+ years of SCOTUS precedent. In fact, your little NRA club was founded, first and foremost, as the largest gun control advocate in this country, and the larger part of their record remains so.

Further, Democrats have, historically, been on the side of lessening gun restrictions, up until the 70s when this was defined a possible wedge issue by the Republican handlers (thus began the lobbying, the influence placed into SCOTUS, the hijacking of the NRA). Remember: Democrats are liberal. Which means they like freedom.

 

[waggy]

Yes, the real question is who conceived F&F, who authorized it and who supervised it.

Holder is the top official here. Holder should have had those answers long ago. I find it inexcusable, unbelievable actually, that approx 1 1/2 years later this information remains unknown. This is Holder's fault.

I firmly believe that had Holder produced this info to the committee in a timely matter we wouldn't be where we are, and that this would be a non-issue by now.

Now, Holder has had to withdraw 3 factually incorrect statements. That is inexcusably sloppy and unprofessional. There's no way around the fact that by doing so he has appeared to be either incompetent or deceitful. In either case he has himself created a lack of trust, and compounds it by refusing to cooperate. He has brought this upon himself. And I believe Obama has needlessly pulled himself into it.

Just produce the damned report: A thorough, professional and unimpeachable report detailing the basic facts about F&F.

And "No", this isn't a witchhunt. There are no such things as witches. Running around looking for some and trumping up fake evidence against someone is one thing. This is completely different. People are dead and a couple thousand pretty serious weapons are in the hands of criminals, all without the knowledge or permission of Mexico. This is a serious problem, not some dreamed up problem like "witches".

Fern

exactly.

im amazed this is such a issue. people died, some major guns were given to criminal cartels in Mexico. yeah..this is major.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes, the real question is who conceived F&F, who authorized it and who supervised it.

Holder is the top official here. Holder should have had those answers long ago. I find it inexcusable, unbelievable actually, that approx 1 1/2 years later this information remains unknown. This is Holder's fault.

I firmly believe that had Holder produced this info to the committee in a timely matter we wouldn't be where we are, and that this would be a non-issue by now.

Now, Holder has had to withdraw 3 factually incorrect statements. That is inexcusably sloppy and unprofessional. There's no way around the fact that by doing so he has appeared to be either incompetent or deceitful. In either case he has himself created a lack of trust, and compounds it by refusing to cooperate. He has brought this upon himself. And I believe Obama has needlessly pulled himself into it.

Just produce the damned report: A thorough, professional and unimpeachable report detailing the basic facts about F&F.

And "No", this isn't a witchhunt. There are no such things as witches. Running around looking for some and trumping up fake evidence against someone is one thing. This is completely different. People are dead and a couple thousand pretty serious weapons are in the hands of criminals, all without the knowledge or permission of Mexico. This is a serious problem, not some dreamed up problem like "witches".

Fern

Issa doesn't want the report. He wants 80K documents created after the operation was shut down.

Of course it's a witch hunt. Mexican cartels are using straw buyers to purchase truckloads of guns, even when the BATF isn't working to bust them. The notion that the guns involved in F&F are anything more than a drop in the bucket is absurd, the idea that they wouldn't have acquired such weapons outside the scope of the operation delusional or dishonest.

Why is that? Because the NRA & their congressional toadies refuse to grant the BATF the statutes & the resources to fight that effectively, so, uhh, just Blame Obama! & sweep their own culpability under the rug. Rave on about new regulations that affect honest buyers not in the slightest so as to inflame the community & to place blame on somebody, anybody other than themselves.

If that community were legitimately concerned about that & about the safety & security of law enforcement agents, they'd offer up constructive ways to combat it, but they don't, which reveals their concerns & intentions to be not as stated.

 

[zinfamous]

If so = treason.

If Reagan didn't get tried for treason for selling arms to our known enemies, then there's not a whole lot that's going to be done here.

lofuckingL. you kids are HILARIOUS.

This sounds bad--it sounds real bad. But it looks like a "follow the wire" investigation--you let stuff through, you track it, you continue to let things pass. It's a strategy, that's all it is.

At least there was no attempt to profit from our sworn enemies off of this, in order to arm them to fight our supposed allies, right?

 

[Jhhnn]

Of course the guns are legal. The purchases weren't. What is your point?

And you're mistaken. We hate the administration and the ATF for talking about the illegal flow of guns and the need to do something about it, the whole time it's the ATF flowing those guns.

Finally, yes I do accept that opinion. It hadn't been retracted, unlike Holders 3 recent statements.

What's next? Obama on national television: "If I had a son, he would look just like Holder?"

Actually, the purchases could not be shown to be illegal to the satisfaction of the pro-gun US attorney in charge. In order for the purchases to be illegal, the intent of the buyer must be shown to be for illegal purposes. W/O wiretap evidence or witness testimony, that's basically impossible. Under current law, sales of such firearms are recorded only at the point of sale, meaning that agents must inspect those records on-site to even identify any sort of pattern.

With the exception of a few guns provided by the renegade agent turned whistleblower, the BATF didn't "flow" any guns at all. Legit gun dealers did that, and still are, because the practice is quite lucrative & can't be shown to be illegal. Hell, it can't even be ascertained to have happened at all w/o a lot of footwork by agents or tipoffs from dealers themselves.

It's the way that gun advocates want it, obviously, other than them wanting even less enforcement power granted to law enforcement, making it extremely dishonest for them to be wringing their hands in mock piety over the death of a federal agent facilitated by their own desires & influence.

 

[trenchfoot]

And the NRA, sticking to their tried and true MO of selling fear to sell guns is exploiting this to maximum effect.

Bottom line: No matter who gets hung out to dry, the gun traffickers who are siamesed with the NRA are profiting immensely from the lack of regulatory control, all of which is made possible by the NRA and its omnipotent influence over Washington.

 

[schneiderguy]

Yup. Nothing like a black man in the office to get the god-fearing rednecks and hillbillies all scurred.


BTW, you guys really need to get your history straight: Gun control has only become more lax over the previous 3 decades. The only thing that has ever happened, is that regulations have been repealed. The history of the US and Fed regulations is that guns have been tightly, tightly controlled, due in most part to the first 200+ years of SCOTUS precedent. In fact, your little NRA club was founded, first and foremost, as the largest gun control advocate in this country, and the larger part of their record remains so.

Further, Democrats have, historically, been on the side of lessening gun restrictions, up until the 70s when this was defined a possible wedge issue by the Republican handlers (thus began the lobbying, the influence placed into SCOTUS, the hijacking of the NRA). Remember: Democrats are liberal. Which means they like freedom.

It's only become an issue since libruls (note: Republicans can be librul too) started passing bad gun laws, starting with the National Firearms Act in the 1930's.

Without the evil NRA lobbyists we would not be able to own handguns today.

 

[monovillage]

Yup. Nothing like a black man in the office to get the god-fearing rednecks and hillbillies all scurred.


BTW, you guys really need to get your history straight: Gun control has only become more lax over the previous 3 decades. The only thing that has ever happened, is that regulations have been repealed. The history of the US and Fed regulations is that guns have been tightly, tightly controlled, due in most part to the first 200+ years of SCOTUS precedent. In fact, your little NRA club was founded, first and foremost, as the largest gun control advocate in this country, and the larger part of their record remains so.

Further, Democrats have, historically, been on the side of lessening gun restrictions, up until the 70s when this was defined a possible wedge issue by the Republican handlers (thus began the lobbying, the influence placed into SCOTUS, the hijacking of the NRA). Remember: Democrats are liberal. Which means they like freedom.

Wrong in so many facts on different subjects that it's got to be deliberate. The Kennedy's getting killed was a huge driver of gun control efforts and it happened in the 60's. John in '63 and Bobby in '68, for fucks sake learn something before you make an even bigger liar out of yourself.
Never mind, being a liar is what you and the rest of the Democrats do best.

 

[Generator]

This is a good bit of politics for the Republicans, unfortunately both parties work for the same masters. Issa and Obama will figure out something by tonight, at the end of day the politicians protect their own regardless of team.

The NRA conspiracy is moronic. But I would like to know what the whole point of this is. A lot of people got killed for a easy buck. Don't tell me that is what its all about.

 

[spidey07]

This is a good bit of politics for the Republicans, unfortunately both parties work for the same masters. Issa and Obama will figure out something by tonight, at the end of day the politicians protect their own regardless of team.

The NRA conspiracy is moronic. But I would like to know what the whole point of this is. A lot of people got killed for a easy buck. Don't tell me that is what its all about.

It's about Obama trying to transform America into a country totally dependent on federal government, the Union of States be damned.

He got caught, and needs to stand trial for treason.

 

[fskimospy]

It's about Obama trying to transform America into a country totally dependent on federal government, the Union of States be damned.

He got caught, and needs to stand trial for treason.

I strongly suggest you:

1.) Renew your abilify prescription.

2.) Go learn the definition of treason.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's about Obama trying to transform America into a country totally dependent on federal government, the Union of States be damned.

He got caught, and needs to stand trial for treason.

Another garbled & undecipherable message from Outer Wingnutlandia... something about having to deal with the unimaginable catastrophe of a black Democrat in the White House... they're nearly unhinged by it...

 

[fskimospy]

Another garbled & undecipherable message from Outer Wingnutlandia... something about having to deal with the unimaginable catastrophe of a black Democrat in the White House... they're nearly unhinged by it...

Obama has repeatedly and flagrantly violated spidey's constitutional right not to have a black president.

 

[BladeVenom]

And the NRA, sticking to their tried and true MO of selling fear to sell guns is exploiting this to maximum effect.

Bottom line: No matter who gets hung out to dry, the gun traffickers who are siamesed with the NRA are profiting immensely from the lack of regulatory control, all of which is made possible by the NRA and its omnipotent influence over Washington.

They have you completely brainwashed. Guns are heavily regulated.

Do you even think about that nonsense you write. Or do you just repeat what you've been told to?

 

[jackstar7]

They have you completely brainwashed. Guns are heavily regulated.

Do you even think about that nonsense you write. Or do you just repeat what you've been told to?

Adequately regulated, maybe. Heavily? Not sure I can agree with that characterization.

 

[trenchfoot]

They have you completely brainwashed. Guns are heavily regulated.

Do you even think about that nonsense you write. Or do you just repeat what you've been told to?

LOL, google away on why there's a flood of firearms heading into Mexico 24/7/365 and who the seller/buyers are. sheeesh😀

 

[xj0hnx]

They have you completely brainwashed. Guns are heavily regulated.

Do you even think about that nonsense you write. Or do you just repeat what you've been told to?

LOL, yea I nearly spit Coke all over my keyboard when I read "lack of regulatory control".

 

[xj0hnx]

Adequately regulated, maybe. Heavily? Not sure I can agree with that characterization.

Then you don't know shit about gun laws either.

 

[BladeVenom]

LOL, google away on why there's a flood of firearms heading into Mexico 24/7/365 and who the seller/buyers are. sheeesh😀

"-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.
-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.
- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.
-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.
-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.
-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/200...mall-fraction-guns-mexico-come/#ixzz1z3upap2X

"only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S."

 

[BladeVenom]

Adequately regulated, maybe. Heavily? Not sure I can agree with that characterization.

http://www.atf.gov Go there and start reading. Also check state laws.

What else do you own that requires a background check? That has a legally mandatory serial number? That is tracked every step of the way by the government? That the size, and how it works is regulated by the government? That it's transportation is also regulated? How you carry it is also regulated. What goes into it is also heavily regulated?

 

[blankslate]

And your point is...?

More insightful than the post I am replying to.

 

[TerryMathews]

Adequately regulated, maybe. Heavily? Not sure I can agree with that characterization.

Hmmm. I don't buy anything else that requires a background check every time I buy it. Do you?

How do you characterize guns as anything but heavily regulated? I think the only way you can is to compare our regulations with those of less free countries.