Obama Invokes Executive Privilege on Fast and Furious Documents

[xBiffx]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...us-documents/2012/06/20/gJQA83WFqV_story.html

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...tee-up-imminent-contempt-vote-against-holder/

This is going to be interesting. Like Nixon interesting. I still don't think this is going to change the fact that Holder will be likely held in contempt of Congress. If anything, its going to make it more likely.

 

[xj0hnx]

So his boy got caught and now he is using his power to cover it up? Awesome.

The American people don't like dead Border Patrol agents, and American weapons in the hands of Mexican drug gangs, I don't see this boding well for his popularity. Funny how they leak a bunch of classified documents, and then in practically the same breath block these.

 

[Double Trouble]

Nothing new here.... when caught with their hands in the cookie jar, claiming executive privilege is an easy out to not have to produce documents. Bush / Cheney did it plenty of times, as have many presidents in the past. What a mockery. I wish the courts would take on a case at some point and make it clear that executive privilege is not an easy way to escape scrutiny of your screwups or misdeeds, but rather a way to protect the ability of the executive to do their job.

I'm sure Romney's folks are all over this, figuring out how to use this in an effective ad campaign.

 

[fskimospy]

If you think this is going to be 'Nixon' interesting (implying possible impeachment?), you're sorely mistaken.

That being said, I believe executive privilege, like state secrets, is hugely abused in its current form, something I wish Congress would have the courage to address through the courts. Not that I expect them to.

 

[xj0hnx]

Nothing new here.... when caught with their hands in the cookie jar, claiming executive privilege is an easy out to not have to produce documents. Bush / Cheney did it plenty of times, as have many presidents in the past. What a mockery. I wish the courts would take on a case at some point and make it clear that executive privilege is not an easy way to escape scrutiny of your screwups or misdeeds, but rather a way to protect the ability of the executive to do their job.

I'm sure Romney's folks are all over this, figuring out how to use this in an effective ad campaign.

I wonder how many that pitched hissy fits over Bush and Cheney doing the same thing are going to remain silent about Obama doing it? Probably about the same amount who's deafening silence over gitmo echoed through the valley of denial.

 

[Smoblikat]

Well, im not even going to say anything. The liberals really screwed the pooch on this one. Their esteemed leader seems to be falling apart. lets hope he didnt already implement a fix for the voting, and that this legitimately hurts his election campaign.

 

[rudder]

"Information will not be withheld just because I say so; it will be withheld because a separate authority believes my request is well-grounded in the Constitution. Let me say it as simply as I can: transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency," Barack Obama

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/TransparencyandOpenGovernment

 

[xBiffx]

If you think this is going to be 'Nixon' interesting (implying possible impeachment?), you're sorely mistaken.

That being said, I believe executive privilege, like state secrets, is hugely abused in its current form, something I wish Congress would have the courage to address through the courts. Not that I expect them to.

Too bad I wasn't talking about impeachment. I am simply stating that this is going to be as big of a scandal as Watergate if not bigger. I said nothing of impeachment. But go ahead and think what you want.

 

[fskimospy]

I wonder how many that pitched hissy fits over Bush and Cheney doing the same thing are going to remain silent about Obama doing it? Probably about the same amount who's deafening silence over gitmo echoed through the valley of denial.

That's a silly comparison.

Obama attempted to close gitmo and was prevented from doing so by Congress. It is not analogous to this case where Obama appears to be abusing executive privilege in many of the same ways that Bush did. (although since it's all hidden it's not really possible to know for sure).

Similarly, I am willing to bet that many of the defenders of executive privilege in the past will be outraged.... OUTRAGED by Obama's move here.

 

[xj0hnx]

That's a silly comparison.

Obama attempted to close gitmo and was prevented from doing so by Congress. It is not analogous to this case where Obama appears to be abusing executive privilege in many of the same ways that Bush did. (although since it's all hidden it's not really possible to know for sure).

Similarly, I am willing to bet that many of the defenders of executive privilege in the past will be outraged.... OUTRAGED by Obama's move here.

I am not talking about the actual act, I am talking about the "outrage" over it, and how it fizzled once Obama took office.

 

[fskimospy]

Too bad I wasn't talking about impeachment. I am simply stating that this is going to be as big of a scandal as Watergate if not bigger. I said nothing of impeachment. But go ahead and think what you want.

No it won't. It won't even be in the same zip code as Watergate. If you have some sort of standard of 'how big' a scandal is however I would love to take any and all bets at quite favorable odds to you on this matter.

And by the way, the Watergate scandal was so big precisely because it led to the resignation-before-impeachment of Nixon... so it's pretty bizarre to say that this scandal will be of comparable scope while simultaneously saying it won't be about impeachment.

 

[fskimospy]

I am not talking about the actual act, I am talking about the "outrage" over it, and how it fizzled once Obama took office.

I think the outrage fizzled because there's no longer any clear driving force behind it nor are there workable other options. Someone setting up a new, lawless prison generates a lot more outrage than the same lawless prison continuing to exist as a rump after someone tried to unsuccessfully shut it down. I mean that's pretty expected.

 

[Paul98]

How can so many people support what this congressman is doing? This clearly isn't about justice or fixing problems, it's purely political. Only political hacks could support what is being done.

With talk like this, you won't get people who disagree about what is being done on both sides to agree with you on anything you said. This is the problem with this hearing, these idiots are ether doing it purely for political reasons. If they are doing it for that they should be kicked to the curb, and forced to pay back the money this costs. Or they are doing it because they are too stupid to know what they are doing and don't know how to talk to people.

 

[nageov3t]

let me quote someone more eloquent than me,

The "right" of executive privilege was basically invented by the Nixon Administration to try to thwart being caught by Congress for their criminal conduct. Funny how administrations for the nearly 200 years before that had not needed to invent it, and how the founding fathers had not seen fit to mention or define it. The courts upheld a *narrow* right in the Nixon case, but he was still largely accountable.

Did Nixon have the 'executive privilege' right to keep the most secret discussions in the Oval Office he'd taped from Congress? Ask any of the 9 Justices then - they'll say the same.

We're not talking here mostly about any direct discussions by advisors with Bush, but discussions between advisors...

The case for that abuse is staggering and it's an affront to ANY patriotic American; it is up to you whether you want to join that group.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=25747159&postcount=21

 

[michal1980]

Obama says you shouldnt hide behind EP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpwYh9TD6Nc&feature=youtu.be

 

[nageov3t]

How can so many people support what this congressman is doing? This clearly isn't about justice or fixing problems, it's purely political. Only political hacks could support what is being done.

With talk like this, you won't get people who disagree about what is being done on both sides to agree with you on anything you said. This is the problem with this hearing, these idiots are ether doing it purely for political reasons. If they are doing it for that they should be kicked to the curb, and forced to pay back the money this costs. Or they are doing it because they are too stupid to know what they are doing and don't know how to talk to people.

personally, I'd like to know who thought it was a great idea to arm Mexican drug cartels and why the attempt at tracking gun trafficking failed to completely (ending with, I believe, at least one boarder agent shot using guns the the Fed gave to drug runners)

 

[Paul98]

People need to stop trying to defend or demonize just one side. Our entire system is screwed up we have crooks in political power. They are just fighting each other so they can get back into power. The American people are getting screwed in the process. Unless you are one of the top, or powerful things aren't getting better.

There are still good people in politics but they are getting fewer and fewer due to this attitude.

 

[Paul98]

personally, I'd like to know who thought it was a great idea to arm Mexican drug cartels and why the attempt at tracking gun trafficking failed to completely (ending with, I believe, at least one boarder agent shot using guns the the Fed gave to drug runners)

You and me both

 

[xBiffx]

How can so many people support what this congressman is doing? This clearly isn't about justice or fixing problems, it's purely political. Only political hacks could support what is being done.

With talk like this, you won't get people who disagree about what is being done on both sides to agree with you on anything you said. This is the problem with this hearing, these idiots are ether doing it purely for political reasons. If they are doing it for that they should be kicked to the curb, and forced to pay back the money this costs. Or they are doing it because they are too stupid to know what they are doing and don't know how to talk to people.

So trying to get answers for the family of a dead Border Patrol agent is just a political ploy? Seeking justice for those who were victimized by this idiotic program is merely political? Give me a fucking break. The inJustice Department is guilty of not doing the job they are commissioned to do and that is why there has been an investigation and call for a contempt vote.

Like has been said before, ad nauseam, if this were Bush and Ashcroft you would be having no issues with a democrat senator doing the same thing, amiright.

 

[fskimospy]

How can so many people support what this congressman is doing? This clearly isn't about justice or fixing problems, it's purely political. Only political hacks could support what is being done.

With talk like this, you won't get people who disagree about what is being done on both sides to agree with you on anything you said. This is the problem with this hearing, these idiots are ether doing it purely for political reasons. If they are doing it for that they should be kicked to the curb, and forced to pay back the money this costs. Or they are doing it because they are too stupid to know what they are doing and don't know how to talk to people.

Of course it's a partisan political attack. I think a reasonable person can view Darrell Issa as a truly vile and contemptible human being (which he is) and still not support such an expansive view of executive privilege.

The Republicans have been desperately searching for a scandal about Obama for 3 years now, this is as close as they've been able to come even though it's quite mild. Remember how when they went into office they all pledged to investigate the shit out of Obama? The silence after that has been deafening. Like him or not, from what we've seen to date the Obama administration has been the most scandal free administration in decades (at a minimum).

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

How can so many people support what this congressman is doing? This clearly isn't about justice or fixing problems, it's purely political. Only political hacks could support what is being done.

With talk like this, you won't get people who disagree about what is being done on both sides to agree with you on anything you said. This is the problem with this hearing, these idiots are ether doing it purely for political reasons. If they are doing it for that they should be kicked to the curb, and forced to pay back the money this costs. Or they are doing it because they are too stupid to know what they are doing and don't know how to talk to people.

I have no problem with Holder being asked to provide these documents. I do have a problem with him failing to produce them. If it was true that someone screwed the pooch and funneled weapons into criminal hands then we ought to know. It could have been a matter of unintended consequences, but that does not provide sufficient grounds for refusal. I don't know what happened, and now it appears we never will. Holder is off the hook and the mystery remains. Invoking this has been seen in the past as an admittance of guilt by many, but we'll see.

BTW, I didn't approve of how GWB used this neat deux ex machina to cover his butt either.

What remains to be seen is how things progress. Exec. privilege is not unlimited but it is not easily circumvented. If there is sufficient evidence of a conspiratorial nature it can be voided. That's not likely.

 

[Paul98]

So trying to get answers for the family of a dead Border Patrol agent is just a political ploy? Seeking justice for those who were victimized by this idiotic program is merely political?

Let me know when they try and do that.

Like has been said before, ad nauseam, if this were Bush and Ashcroft you would be having no issues with a democrat senator doing the same thing, amiright.

WOW... someone totally missed the point.

If you want to talk to someone and have a good conversation, you don't attack them. I have a problem with anyone doing these things, this is the thing you don't seem to understand.

 

[xj0hnx]

Of course it's a partisan political attack. I think a reasonable person can view Darrell Issa as a truly vile and contemptible human being (which he is) and still not support such an expansive view of executive privilege.

The Republicans have been desperately searching for a scandal about Obama for 3 years now, this is as close as they've been able to come even though it's quite mild. Remember how when they went into office they all pledged to investigate the shit out of Obama? The silence after that has been deafening. Like him or not, from what we've seen to date the Obama administration has been the most scandal free administration in decades (at a minimum).

Pathetic. If Bu-bu-bu-but Buuuuuuush had done this, you'd be calling for his head on a pike. Partisan indeed.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I wonder how many that pitched hissy fits over Bush and Cheney doing the same thing are going to remain silent about Obama doing it?

About the same number as those who are pitching hissy fits about this issue and labeled as "unpatriotic" anyone who complained about Bush/Cheney.

 

[boomerang]

How can so many people support what this congressman is doing? This clearly isn't about justice or fixing problems, it's purely political. Only political hacks could support what is being done.

I don't quite follow you. Are you saying that Fast and Furious should have been ignored?

Holder has been giving Congress the runaround for 18 months which was initially only on the brink of the election cycle. Is there a possibility that Holder has brought this upon himself? What if he had complied when asked? Was he right or wrong to sandbag on producing the documentation that has been asked for?

Who does Holder answer to? That individual is responsible for holding up the investigation. We know who that is.