Obama administration will reject Keystone XL pipeline

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Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
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We, the people of the United States in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessing of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

-John
 
Feb 4, 2009
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This is all pure Socialism.

There isn't an ounce of Capitalism allowed today.

"You want to sell a shoe?!
I will smell your butt."

-John

I guess I will have to start adding Fascism into the equation too.

"an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization."

https://www.google.com/search?q=fac...ie7&rlz=1I7GGLR_en&gws_rd=ssl#q=facism&nfpr=1

-John

Not even close to the "Land of the Free" I grew up with.

-John

Communist, Socialist, and Fascist.

-John

Government has to be limited, and soon.

I'm afraid that I don't see any candidate that is trying to limit Government.

-John

Wait the Government using eminent domain to allow a company to run a shitty oil pipe thru peoples land so the oil company doesn't have to negotiate with everyone or pay monthly rental fees to land owners isn't socialism?
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
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The only people using too much Government, as a reason to not do the pipeline, are you and Obama... two socialists.

Meanwhile, the Government just shut down free enterprise.

Socialist, Communist, Fascist.

-John
 
Feb 4, 2009
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The only people using too much Government, as a reason to not do the pipeline, are you and Obama... two socialists.

Meanwhile, the Government just shut down free enterprise.

Socialist, Communist, Fascist.

-John

Zork, free enterprise would have the pipeline company negotiate payment or payments with each and every land owner. The process would likely take a long time or it could be sped up with more payments. That is true capitalism you speak of.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
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Meanwhile, you seem to prefer some King named Obama to say, "no! You shall not make a keystone pipeline!"

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
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One thing (me) is for the individual and the other thing (you) is for Government.

-John
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Meanwhile, you seem to prefer some King named Obama to say, "no! You shall not make a keystone pipeline!"

-John

I fail to see how an enormous pipeline that only takes a few dozen people to staff & maintain that is designed to get oil that is currently being used in the Midwest to container ships that will take it to China is a good deal. All subsidized by our Government. No thank you.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
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Wait the Government using eminent domain to allow a company to run a shitty oil pipe thru peoples land so the oil company doesn't have to negotiate with everyone or pay monthly rental fees to land owners isn't socialism?

exactly.

here is the kicker. It wasn't even the Government using ED. it was a PRIVATE foreign company! they were going in. making shit offers then saying ok to bad and filling ED claims.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Wait the Government using eminent domain to allow a company to run a shitty oil pipe thru peoples land so the oil company doesn't have to negotiate with everyone or pay monthly rental fees to land owners isn't socialism?
That is a good point. Although personally, things like pipelines and railroads are the few places where I support eminent domain since they are necessarily continuous or they don't work. However, even though I support Keystone, this is for me a gray area because Keystone is designed not to benefit the people in the areas it traverses, but only the producers, refiners and shippers. Thus it is like a railroad that only passes through or a hospital that only treats a private clientele - not really a good argument for ED.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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exactly.

here is the kicker. It wasn't even the Government using ED. it was a PRIVATE foreign company! they were going in. making shit offers then saying ok to bad and filling ED claims.
I don't know if they were shit offers or not, but I think in general one deserves significantly above market value (maybe double) if forced to sell simply because when one is forced to give up something for the common good, one deserves more than a willing seller because the resource is worth more to you than to the average bear. Otherwise you would be a willing seller. Unfortunately, wealthy individuals and companies have learned that just as with Congress, buying politicians gets you a discount on whatever else you want.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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I don't know if they were shit offers or not, but I think in general one deserves significantly above market value (maybe double) if forced to sell simply because when one is forced to give up something for the common good, one deserves more than a willing seller because the resource is worth more to you than to the average bear. Otherwise you would be a willing seller. Unfortunately, wealthy individuals and companies have learned that just as with Congress, buying politicians gets you a discount on whatever else you want.

ED compensation is supposed to represent fair market value however in my experience that is basically never paid. You can take the government to court but you'll just end up eating the difference in legal costs for a probably unfavorable outcome.

I recognize that there are times ED needs to be used but I've been long skeptical that this was one of them.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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ED compensation is supposed to represent fair market value however in my experience that is basically never paid. You can take the government to court but you'll just end up eating the difference in legal costs for a probably unfavorable outcome.

I recognize that there are times ED needs to be used but I've been long skeptical that this was one of them.
That has been my experience as well. Our local government tried to seize the water utility by simply condemning most of its pipes, thus picking it up on the cheap. Another time they condemned a building they wanted and paid $80k even though they had been taxing it as worth $300k. Thankfully, both times they lost badly in court.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Again this was a shit deal to begin with. Other than a pipe being safer way to transport I see no benefit in Keystone.
Why someone would support it is beyond what I can understand.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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Again this was a shit deal to begin with. Other than a pipe being safer way to transport I see no benefit in Keystone.
Why someone would support it is beyond what I can understand.

So you admit it will be safer to transport oil but then cant fathom why anybody would support it.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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So you admit it will be safer to transport oil but then cant fathom why anybody would support it.

I'd probably be more supportive from a safety perspective if the government imposed much stricter safety standards for pipeline operators. The number of incidents involving failure of the massive spill or fire/explosion kind is substantial.
 
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So you admit it will be safer to transport oil but then cant fathom why anybody would support it.

Roads would be safer if cars & trucks couldn't possibly travel more than 45 mph. I don't support that, pipeline would be marginally safer but that does not mean its a good deal.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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I'd probably be more supportive from a safety perspective if the government imposed much stricter safety standards for pipeline operators. The number of incidents involving failure of the massive spill or fire/explosion kind is substantial.

That needs to be fixed I agree. Pipelines need to regulated like any other piece of infrastructure.
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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Roads would be safer if cars & trucks couldn't possibly travel more than 45 mph. I don't support that, pipeline would be marginally safer but that does not mean its a good deal.

I think from a safety and economic perspective it is a project that should never had been held up and ultimately killed. It would get a % of oil off rail which has proved to be problematic in its own right. There is a negative economic impact every time one of these oil trains derail and spills\burns oil.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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That needs to be fixed I agree. Pipelines need to regulated like any other piece of infrastructure.

Given how carefully we look after the rest of our infrastructure I think stricter standards than average would probably be a good idea. :D
 
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I think from a safety and economic perspective it is a project that should never had been held up and ultimately killed. It would get a % of oil off rail which has proved to be problematic in its own right. There is a negative economic impact every time one of these oil trains derail and spills\burns oil.

Or you improve the rail cars and not disrupt a bunch of land, move the oil to a foreign country and pad the pockets of a foreign company. Plus preserve the jobs at the rail company and refineries in the Midwest that handle to oil which are US jobs.
My point is I can understand why someone would be pro pipeline for safety but any reason involving job or US oil prices are misdirected
 
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cbrunny

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2007
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http://business.financialpost.com/n...-denying-keystone-xl-pipeline?__lsa=9570-0118

CALGARY – TransCanada Corp. said Wednesday it intends to file a challenge under the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) seeking US$15-billion in damages from the United States government over President Barack Obama’s denial of the Keystone XL pipeline.

In addition, the Calgary-based company filed a lawsuit in U.S. Federal Court in Houston claiming Obama’s decision to deny construction of Keystone XL exceeded his power under the U.S. Constitution.

In a 27-page notice of intent to pursue the NAFTA challenge, the Calgary-based pipeline company said Obama’s denial was politically driven, directly contrary to the conclusions of own administration’s studies, and in violation of U.S. obligations under the agreement.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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How can an administrative decision exceed the power of the administrator?
I guess you could consider it violating a treaty, but that's connecting a few too many dots to seem plausible - beginning with what act or law of Congress being violated?

OTOH, damages are an interesting angle.