O2 Sensor or Air Flow Ratio Sensor (1999 Camry)

steppinthrax

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2006
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I'm in a bit of a misunderstanding here. I have a 1999 Camry (4-cyl) with a California Emissions sticker. I got a P1133 code which translates to = "Air/Fuel Ratio Sensor Circuit Response Malfunction Bank 1 Sensor 1".

The Sensor is pretty expensive ($200). I can get it cheaper (140 or so). However, I've been reading that the AFR sensor is pretty much a more sophisticated version of a O2 sensor and that they are more/less both called a O2 sensor. It's called a AFR sensor because it has a wider range of voltage output to the computer and is "pre-heated". On ebay/autozone, they sell 4-wire O2 sensors for much cheaper (20 to 50 bucks).

So my question is can I simply splice in a universal 4-wire O2 senor/AFR sensor. Is that literaly the same thing????
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
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no, your onboard computer will flake out.

i just replaced this on my 04 camry. dont cheap out get real Toyota parts.
 

tortillasoup

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2011
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You don't have to buy a Toyota O2 sensor, just an NTK/Denso (depending on what shipped with the car). IIRC this year Camry came with the NTK Sensors.

According to this:http://www.ngksparkplugs.com (NGK=NTK) since you have the 4 cyl engine and you have a California car, part #24656 is what you need since it's the o2 sensor BEFORE the catalytic converter. You can only use the California o2 sensor since it's a wideband o2 sensor and that's what the car's computer can handle.

You should clean up your electrical grounds thoroughly prior to replacing this O2 sensor, clear the computer and check back to make sure it's not just bad electrical grounds. Scrub the Bolts, Eyelits, washers (will likely be attached to bolts) THOROUGHLY until SHINY. If you get all of the grounds in the engine bay, you should notice a drivability difference. I also would like to mention that you should replace your PCV valve while you're working on this car if you haven't already.
 
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steppinthrax

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Jul 17, 2006
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You don't have to buy a Toyota O2 sensor, just an NTK/Denso (depending on what shipped with the car). IIRC this year Camry came with the NTK Sensors.

According to this:http://www.ngksparkplugs.com (NGK=NTK) since you have the 4 cyl engine and you have a California car, part #24656 is what you need since it's the o2 sensor BEFORE the catalytic converter. You can only use the California o2 sensor since it's a wideband o2 sensor and that's what the car's computer can handle.

You should clean up your electrical grounds thoroughly prior to replacing this O2 sensor, clear the computer and check back to make sure it's not just bad electrical grounds. Scrub the Bolts, Eyelits, washers (will likely be attached to bolts) THOROUGHLY until SHINY. If you get all of the grounds in the engine bay, you should notice a drivability difference. I also would like to mention that you should replace your PCV valve while you're working on this car if you haven't already.

This is what I'm refering too.

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h37.pdf

This is a toyota training guide.

It is essentially saying that a AFR sensor is essentially a more sophisticated version of a O2 sensor. People use the term AFR and O2 interchangable, when in actuality the newer 4-wire sensors are supposed to be called AFR sensors.

Also from my understanding these sensors are like "batteries and light bulbs", they are pretty interchangable. You just need to get the thread and mount and wire count correct and you are good?
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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Also from my understanding these sensors are like "batteries and light bulbs", they are pretty interchangable. You just need to get the thread and mount and wire count correct and you are good?

Again, no.

A wideband O2 sensor is NOT the same as a regular (or "narrowband") O2 sensor.

From the very PDF you link: "Though it appears similar to the oxygen sensor, it is constructed differently and has different operating characteristics."

You cannot just put a 4-wire narrowband sensor in place of a wideband sensor and expect it to work. There are LOTS of 4-wire narrowband sensors out there. Just because something has 4 wires does NOT mean it's a wideband sensor.

ZV
 

phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
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Then either a) the one you replaced wasn't a wideband sensor or b) your car has not yet run the O2 monitor.

Wideband and narrowband sensors output different voltages. A engine computer made to accept one will not know how to interpret the other.

Also of note, an O2 sensor issue will not cause the engine to run rough. At worst, the fuel trim is allowed to deviate by 24%. At 25%, a fuel trim code is set and the ECM quits trying to use closed loop. If an O2 code is set, the ECM quits trying to use closed loop. Open loop should not make the car run poorly; it's simply less efficient.
 

steppinthrax

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Jul 17, 2006
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Then either a) the one you replaced wasn't a wideband sensor or b) your car has not yet run the O2 monitor.

Wideband and narrowband sensors output different voltages. A engine computer made to accept one will not know how to interpret the other.

Also of note, an O2 sensor issue will not cause the engine to run rough. At worst, the fuel trim is allowed to deviate by 24%. At 25%, a fuel trim code is set and the ECM quits trying to use closed loop. If an O2 code is set, the ECM quits trying to use closed loop. Open loop should not make the car run poorly; it's simply less efficient.

When the engine light was on (reading a "AFR sensor circuit malfunction") the car would "hunt" at idle, almost like the engine was about to shut off. Also, I would use my OBD tool to shut the light off, I would within a few mins get the light on. The light has not came one for 30 mins of driving.

I guess when I opened this thread, I was trying to get some more details regarding O2 senors, type of sensors and which one's can be used for various applications. I could have gone to Toyota and spend $200.00 on a DENSO and pretty much be guaranteed that I will not have any incompatibility issues. However, I'm sure there is a limited set of O2 sensors. The prices for O2 sensors vary wildly.

(i.e. 4-wire sensor http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BORG-WA...Parts_Accessories&hash=item27d1c7cc90&vxp=mtr)

(i.e. 4-wire sensor http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-550i-65...Parts_Accessories&hash=item5aee92afe1&vxp=mtr)
 
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sontakke

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
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A wideband O2 sensor generates voltage which is proportional (or inversely) to the O2 content. The regular O2 sensor is essentially a binary device i.e. it keeps on switching. I am not sure how Toyota could have programmed the ECM to handle both the cases, especially dynamically. One would think you would need to change the ECM firmware for the different type of sensor to work.

Keep us posted if you do get the check engine light back. Have you checked your I/M status to find out which tests have completed and which tests are still incomplete after your 30 minutes of driving?
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,363
475
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keep an eye on your mpgs

maybe those sensors output rich/lean and the ecu thinks it's a stoichiometric mixture because they're different sensors

how do you know the heater current is the same?
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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Then either a) the one you replaced wasn't a wideband sensor or b) your car has not yet run the O2 monitor.

You forgot, c) Bosch part number 15733 is a wideband sensor. ;)

Summit Racing also sells that part number and includes the following in the description:

Bosch premium universal type oxygen sensors with OE SmartLink™ produce a precise output in proportion to the air/fuel ratio, due to a sophisticated sensing element.

Sounds like the OP lucked out and bought a universal wideband without knowing that's what he was doing.

ZV
 

steppinthrax

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2006
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You forgot, c) Bosch part number 15733 is a wideband sensor. ;)

Summit Racing also sells that part number and includes the following in the description:



Sounds like the OP lucked out and bought a universal wideband without knowing that's what he was doing.

ZV

I "googled" this part number and my specific model/year, others had used this sensor and not had any issue.
 

tortillasoup

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2011
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I just spliced in this sensor here

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-15733-Ox.../dp/B000BZG8ZU

I reset the engine light and it hasn't came on again. Also the engine is no longer running rough like before.

Signification cheaper than the $140.00 for the DENSO sensor.
wow, somebody doesn't know how to listen! So not only did you get a Bosch which is strongly NOT recommended for Japanese vehicles but you also bought a universal sensor which are notoriously unreliable and to top it off, you got a wideband! Congrats! Way to not listen!

Just because the check engine light does not come back on, it doesn't mean OP didn't screw up. Also while the engine may no longer be stumbling either, what is likely happening is that the car is ignoring the o2 sensor output by being in open loop for the majority of the time which seems to be a characteristic for these cars. (Have worked on cars w/this engine) There are only so many ways to trigger a check engine code and if the o2 sensor gives readings that don't make the car think it's acting improperly, then it won't trigger a code even if it's the problem. It is this reason why so many people have issues with Bosch products in their Japanese vehicles because it doesn't always trigger a code. If OP had a scangauge or some tool that could read the fuel trims, the idle fuel consumption (GPH) and measured his MPG, he would likely see that the car was running improperly. However OP is obviously not educated/sophisticated enough to know any better.
 
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sontakke

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
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As far as I can make out from Web, Bosch 15733 is NOT air fuel ratio type of O2 sensor. If the OP replaced his with this on his Cal emission 1999 Camry, I think he will get the check engine light. I have the same car and I put the expensive air fuel ratio sensor from Advance Auto using their 30% off code.
 
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Zenmervolt

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Oct 22, 2000
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wow, somebody doesn't know how to listen! So not only did you get a Bosch which is strongly NOT recommended for Japanese vehicles but you also bought a universal sensor which are notoriously unreliable and to top it off, you got a wideband! Congrats! Way to not listen!

Just because the check engine light does not come back on, it doesn't mean OP didn't screw up. Also while the engine may no longer be stumbling either, what is likely happening is that the car is ignoring the o2 sensor output by being in open loop for the majority of the time which seems to be a characteristic for these cars. (Have worked on cars w/this engine) There are only so many ways to trigger a check engine code and if the o2 sensor gives readings that don't make the car think it's acting improperly, then it won't trigger a code even if it's the problem. It is this reason why so many people have issues with Bosch products in their Japanese vehicles because it doesn't always trigger a code. If OP had a scangauge or some tool that could read the fuel trims, the idle fuel consumption (GPH) and measured his MPG, he would likely see that the car was running improperly. However OP is obviously not educated/sophisticated enough to know any better.

If you were any more full of shit it'd be coming out of your ears.

If the car were always running in open loop it damn well would trigger a code. OBD-II doesn't just sit in open loop forever without triggering a code. On top of that, there's no inherent problem with using a universal sensor (and BOSCH parts are about as far from "notoriously unreliable" as a person can get). And there's no problem using a BOSCH part on a Japanese car. This is the same BS line of thinking that makes people swear not to use NGK spark plugs on German cars. Just absolutely ridiculous.

Now, if you put the wrong "universal" part in, that will create a problem. But that's not in any way inherent to the brand of the part, nor to the fact that it's a "universal" replacement.

As far as I can make out from Web, Bosch 15733 is NOT air fuel ratio type of O2 sensor. If the OP replaced his with this on his Cal emission 1999 Camry, I think he will get the check engine light. I have the same car and I put the expensive air fuel ratio sensor from Advance Auto using their 30% off code.

Look at what I quoted earlier. It absolutely IS a wideband O2 sensor (an "air fuel ratio type" as you put it). That's what "output in proportion to the air/fuel ratio" means in the description I posted from Summit Racing.

ZV
 

tortillasoup

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2011
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If you were any more full of shit it'd be coming out of your ears.

If the car were always running in open loop it damn well would trigger a code. OBD-II doesn't just sit in open loop forever without triggering a code. On top of that, there's no inherent problem with using a universal sensor (and BOSCH parts are about as far from "notoriously unreliable" as a person can get).

I couldn't believe it either but I've seen it with my own eyes using a scan tool that these cars for these model years will run for a very extended period of time in open loop and won't trigger a CEL. It's not running in open loop 100% of the time but for the vast majority of the time, it was. Like all the way from cold start to 179F, the car was in open loop and when it reached 180F, it'd enter closed loop but then while driving, I could see the car would be in closed loop for a brief amount of time before switching back into open loop for extended periods of time.

What was happening with the car I worked on was that while it had a new, working o2 sensor, the electrical grounds were corroded enough to make the signal from the o2 sensor either be too weak or just get drowned out by the electrical noise and therefore was ignored by the car. It wasn't obvious corrosion either, I just knew that since the car was over 10 years old, all of the grounds in the engine bay were in need of being cleaned up. It was only after I cleaned up the electrical grounds where the car would enter closed loop almost immediately upon cold startup and would stay that way unless you hit full throttle. Performance and gas mileage improved after cleaning up those grounds.

And there's no problem using a BOSCH part on a Japanese car. This is the same BS line of thinking that makes people swear not to use NGK spark plugs on German cars. Just absolutely ridiculous.

Now, if you put the wrong "universal" part in, that will create a problem. But that's not in any way inherent to the brand of the part, nor to the fact that it's a "universal" replacement.
Experience goes, you want to stick with OEM because aftermarket is overwhelming junk or just flat out inappropriate for the cars. Believe it or not, but no o2 sensor is built exactly the same. Just because two o2 sensors are wideband o2 sensors or narrow band, it doesn't mean they behave identically. When things are built differently, especially instruments such as an o2 sensors, they perform ever so differently. So it's not a surprise that Bosch are inappropriate for Japanese vehicles because no Japanese automaker ships with Bosch parts so their programmed firmware isn't designed with the electrical characteristics of aftermarket parts in mind. Their response speeds may be different or perhaps for a given oxygen level, they output slightly different numbers, numbers that will tell the computer whether to enrich or lean the fuel mixture.

Now as a compromise to not paying out the nose for OEM parts, the best thing you can do is find out who the OEM supplier is for your specific model year car and then buy the parts directly from them. There is really no need to ever go with an o2 sensor that didn't come with your car as the price differences between Bosch and Denso or NGK are so small as to be insignificant.

Universal o2 sensors are junk because o2 sensors are already very weak in producing signal for the computer to read so when you add things like a crimp or whatnot that can provide points of entry for corrosion or a poor electrical connection, it makes them unreliable for most cases. Experience of experienced techs says to avoid universal sensors, likely because it's too difficult for most to get something that will work reliably. Some things are better just paying a little extra for. (I'm notoriously cheap mind you)

You sound like the kind of person who thinks it's a good idea to put those 4 electrode spark plugs on their cars or something...

Look at what I quoted earlier. It absolutely IS a wideband O2 sensor (an "air fuel ratio type" as you put it). That's what "output in proportion to the air/fuel ratio" means in the description I posted from Summit Racing.

ZV
This is absolutely positively 100% NOT a wideband o2 sensor, amazon, autozone knows this, all the auto parts stores know this by stating that this sensor is NOT for California cars. All you have to do is specify 1999 Toyota Camry 2.2.L LE and when you're viewing the page, it will say
"Notes: exc. Calif.
See all products that fit this vehicle"

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/_/N-5yc1s?itemIdentifier=491766
"Oxygen Sensor Type: Narrow-Band Heated"

http://www.boschautoparts.com/VehiclePartFinder/Pages/VehiclePartFinder.aspx
Using the parts selector on the Bosch parts website specifies the following:

13354 Oxygen Sensor Upstream
Without california emissions

13733 Oxygen Sensor Upstream
With california emissions

13353 Oxygen Sensor Downstream

15733 Universal Oxygen Sensor Upstream
Without california emissions

15733 Universal Oxygen Sensor Downstream


Crystal Clear, that the universal sensor is obviously NOT a wideband o2 sensor because if it was, it would have be specified for use in California cars. California cars require the wideband for the upstream because that's what Toyota determined to be necessary to make a federal car become a car that can pass California emissions.
 
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phucheneh

Diamond Member
Jun 30, 2012
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I think you misunderstand ECM 'adaptives'...the ECM programming allows some 'learning' with regard to engine/sensor wear, minuscule differences between individual parts made to the same [approximate] specs, ect...

...there does not exist a stock ECM that will just say, 'welp, I was expecting this kind of O2 signal, but okay, I'll just accept this totally different one, instead!'

If he had replaced a wideband sensor with a narrowband one, it would be throwing a code. The signals are completely different. A normal O2 operated in the 0-1v range. A wideband has...yep, a...wider...band. The range of voltages is bigger.

And it doesn't switch.

And current is monitored instead of voltage.

I won't even touch the rest of the crap you're saying. Other than to point out that the 'universal' O2's you hate so much...are factory O2's. There is no difference. The sensor is the same. Your problem seems to be with your own shoddy electrical work. I have soldered in a shitton of O2's, and never had an issue. Yes, I am aware that the manufacturers say not to solder...because people like you will try and return their part after you made a bad connection.

And yes, a low voltage signal is inherently more sensitive to outside influence...but it's actually less sensitive to wiring issues. Low voltage and low current means you have to do a positively awful job on wiring to cause issues based around excessive circuit resistance.
 

tortillasoup

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2011
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I think you misunderstand ECM 'adaptives'...the ECM programming allows some 'learning' with regard to engine/sensor wear, minuscule differences between individual parts made to the same [approximate] specs, ect...

...there does not exist a stock ECM that will just say, 'welp, I was expecting this kind of O2 signal, but okay, I'll just accept this totally different one, instead!'
For a moment, it would appear that you were agreeing with me... But then...
If he had replaced a wideband sensor with a narrowband one, it would be throwing a code. The signals are completely different. A normal O2 operated in the 0-1v range. A wideband has...yep, a...wider...band. The range of voltages is bigger.
Like I said, no o2 sensor design is the same and there is great latitude in the design of wideband o2 sensors. For example this Toyota camry uses 4 pins in total for its "wideband" o2 sensor design while Honda used a 7 pin (8 slots in total) for its lean burn Honda Civics from 1992-2000. They changed the type of wideband they use in their Lean Burn Honda Insights and 2001-2005 Lean burn Honda Civic HX and the 2003-2005 Vanilla Civics which were upgraded to use Wideband o2 sensors as well.

You seem to put a lot of faith in the computer being able to correctly detect whether or not the o2 sensor's output is correct. There are a finite number of variables the computer can look at to determine if the o2 sensor is putting out junk data. I've seen it countless times where a computer will not turn on the CEL but the engine problems are resolved by the replacement of the o2 sensor.


And it doesn't switch.

And current is monitored instead of voltage.
Where do you get this information? You speak with such arrogance and authority on the subject yet everything you say is wrong. Did you skim an article in C&D or R&T about how o2 sensors operate or something?
I won't even touch the rest of the crap you're saying. Other than to point out that the 'universal' O2's you hate so much...are factory O2's.
Not for this Toyota... This specific Toyota was shipped with either a NGK or a DENSO, it's hard to say without more research but it definitely didn't come with a Bosch.

There is no difference. The sensor is the same. Your problem seems to be with your own shoddy electrical work. I have soldered in a shitton of O2's, and never had an issue. Yes, I am aware that the manufacturers say not to solder...because people like you will try and return their part after you made a bad connection.
They don't solder them because when a solder connection breaks it isn't obvious and cold joints are a real issue. If you notice, NOTHING is soldered on a car, everything is crimped, welded, bonded, glued, stamped, etc. aside from electronic circuit boards. Soldered joints are just too unreliable which is one of the reasons why Cree designed their new LED bulbs to use spring steel to connect the grid of LEDs to the circuit board vs solder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dlyYjcXgz1s#t=150
And yes, a low voltage signal is inherently more sensitive to outside influence...but it's actually less sensitive to wiring issues. Low voltage and low current means you have to do a positively awful job on wiring to cause issues based around excessive circuit resistance.
If the dynamic range of a sensor is between 0V and 1.25V (actual range of an o2 sensor FYI) and the loss .05V means the difference between injecting more fuel (due to perceived lean condition) or not, then it would stand to reason that you're absolutely wrong.
 

FuzzyDunlop

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Jan 30, 2008
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cat-saturday-18-1.jpg
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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Experience of experienced techs says to avoid universal sensors, likely because it's too difficult for most to get something that will work reliably. Some things are better just paying a little extra for. (I'm notoriously cheap mind you)

The experienced techs I talk with have no problem using "universal" O2 sensors. But what would they know. They only work on junky cars (Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi) and their shop's side work is full of things that obvious hack mechanics do, like rebuilding and racing Alain Proust's McLaren M29 and a Ferrari 512 (the race car, not the new road car).

With that sort of iffy "experience" I'm sure that some lowly guy who twiddles a wrench on Corollas must know more than they do. :rolleyes:

You sound like the kind of person who thinks it's a good idea to put those 4 electrode spark plugs on their cars or something...

Of course. Because I love spending money on parts that perform worse and the idea of shielding the spark is just so wonderful for combustion. :rolleyes:

Seriously kiddo, leave this discussion to people who actually know about cars.

ZV
 

tortillasoup

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Jan 12, 2011
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The experienced techs I talk with have no problem using "universal" O2 sensors. But what would they know. They only work on junky cars (Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi) and their shop's side work is full of things that obvious hack mechanics do, like rebuilding and racing Alain Proust's McLaren M29 and a Ferrari 512 (the race car, not the new road car).

I consider all eurotrash cars to be "junky" anyway so the usage of a BOSCH universal o2 (which is quite appropriate for a eurotrash vehicle since that's what they ship with) is less of an issue. Some people really like eurotrash vehicles, I on the other hand do not. My biggest gripe with eurotrash vehicles is they seem to have innumerable number of electrical problems and they've all agreed to utilize that failure prone oil separator/flame trap/whatever for their PCV systems instead of a simple $5 check valve necessitating periodic cleaning/replacement which is very expensive job on those vehicles... I've come across a handful of newer (1996+) Volkswagens, BMWs, Mercedes, Volvos and I noticed that a lot of them use that stupid system for relieving excessive crankcase pressure.
With that sort of iffy "experience" I'm sure that some lowly guy who twiddles a wrench on Corollas must know more than they do. :rolleyes:



Of course. Because I love spending money on parts that perform worse and the idea of shielding the spark is just so wonderful for combustion. :rolleyes:

Seriously kiddo, leave this discussion to people who actually know about cars.

ZV
Funny, you say you know about cars yet you're not smart enough to see that the "universal sensor" listed here is in fact a Narrow band O2 sensor, not a wideband. But yes keep telling yourself that it's a wideband even though there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
 
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bruceb

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Aug 20, 2004
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Bosch parts have had a reputation for being unreliable in the past. That may no longer be the case, but given a choice, I would not use them. As to the sensor, you should use the same brand as what came with the car. But, if possible, try not to buy it direct from your dealer, as you will always overpay at a dealership parts counter. There are plenty of legit on line sites to buy the OEM parts at much cheaper prices.
 

sontakke

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
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To inject some sanity in to this discussion. I have the same 99 Camry with California emission and I did put a Bosch wide-band sensor but as it turned out, it was just re-boxed by Bosch and was actually a Made In Japan Denso (or NTK?) wide-band sensor. I knew that from my research before I purchased it.