NYPD and possible work stoppage

[BoberFett]

Just for transparency, I wouldn't call being a LEO one of the safest jobs.

Office / clerical jobs are clearly the safest, with on the job deaths ~ 1-2/100,000.

The flip side is, anyone who drives a lot for a living (even salesmen) has about the same or in many cases (truck drivers) higher chance of dying than a patrol officer. Basically a cop and a delivery truck driver have about the same odds of dying on the job, and in the sense that they both drive a lot it's probably for many of the same reasons.

I don't see anyone crying about roofers, construction workers, mechanics, trash pick-up guys, etc. I hate seeing all these articles in mass media about how many cops are dying when it's just a load of horse shit.

That's pretty much the crux of what many of us are saying. The violence against cops is high profile and makes for good headlines, but that's about it.

It's similar to the phenomenon 3,000 deaths in a single violent event cause the US to go berzerk, attacking random middle Eastern countries, and enact massive intrusive bureaucracies, while nobody really gets too worked up over the millions who die from mundane but preventable causes.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I don't see anyone crying about roofers, construction workers, mechanics, trash pick-up guys, etc. I hate seeing all these articles in mass media about how many cops are dying when it's just a load of horse shit.

Maybe it because most roofers and construction workers die due to their lack of taking the proper safety precautions (PPE) or following prescribed safety procedures. Most mechanics die from having engines/transmission/heavy parts fall on them/vehicle falling off a jack, again more than likely due to a lack of following proper safety procedures.

 

[Darwin333]

I used to run with a motorcycle club and we had small club rallies down south in AR, GA, TN. There was always bathtub moonshine around. I'm sure it depends on your circle of friends.

I don't even know what bathtub moonshine is but since you have experience with it, what would your best guess be as to the percentage of legal alcohol consumed in that county versus the illegally produced alcohol? I know you can't give me anything definitive, just a rough guesstimate.

 

[Darwin333]

Maybe it because most roofers and construction workers die due to their lack of taking the proper safety precautions (PPE) or following prescribed safety procedures. Most mechanics die from having engines/transmission/heavy parts fall on them/vehicle falling off a jack, again more than likely due to a lack of following proper safety procedures.

Actually most roofers die due to the man working next to them. Lately the absurdity of OSHA has increased my accident rate because the damn PPEs get in the way on jobs they aren't required on. Working on a 3/12 roof (barely a slope, my fat ass can do sprints and jumping jacks on it wearing dress shoes) and OSHA mandates ropes and harnesses. Since we are on the damn roof there is no higher point to tie off from and that gives you 6-10 ropes laying on the roofs surface, one end attached to the structure and the other end attached to someones ass. One guy trips over a rope and two guys take a spill. Almost as bad is the potential for the "pendulum effect", if they don't spend their entire day adjusting the rope grab they have quite a lot of slack on said rope if they were to trip on theirs or someone elses rope and fall off the roof. From 15' up I, and every last one of my men, would prefer to hit the ground. Even better, we'd prefer not to have the trip hazard there in the first damn place but $50K++++ fines are a bitch.

What makes his death any more or less tragic than a cop, who has all the odds stacked in his favor, who gets t-boned in a car accident?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Actually most roofers die due to the man working next to them. Lately the absurdity of OSHA has increased my accident rate because the damn PPEs get in the way on jobs they aren't required on. Working on a 3/12 roof (barely a slope, my fat ass can do sprints and jumping jacks on it wearing dress shoes) and OSHA mandates ropes and harnesses. Since we are on the damn roof there is no higher point to tie off from and that gives you 6-10 ropes laying on the roofs surface, one end attached to the structure and the other end attached to someones ass. One guy trips over a rope and two guys take a spill. Almost as bad is the potential for the "pendulum effect", if they don't spend their entire day adjusting the rope grab they have quite a lot of slack on said rope if they were to trip on theirs or someone elses rope and fall off the roof. From 15' up I, and every last one of my men, would prefer to hit the ground. Even better, we'd prefer not to have the trip hazard there in the first damn place but $50K++++ fines are a bitch.

Wow, just wow I can't believe you do not believe in working as safely as possible after what occurred to you when you were 16. Had that person been following proper safety precaustions on the job you would have never been hurt. There's no such thing as an accident only the failure of someone taking the proper safety precautions.

What makes his death any more or less tragic than a cop, who has all the odds stacked in his favor, who gets t-boned in a car accident?

Never said it was, then again I've haven't claimed that police have the most dangerous job though it can be in the wrong circumstance.

 

[Pipeline 1010]

Wow, just wow I can't believe you do not believe in working as safely as possible after what occurred to you when you were 16

He is clearly arguing that some regulations make it LESS safe. His entire argument was based on working as safely as possible. How did you miss that? How did this rate a "Wow, just wow" on your meter? Also I'm not sure throwing his accident in his face to try and win an internet argument was the least dickish thing you could have done.

There's no such thing as an accident only the failure of someone taking the proper safety precautions.

This looks like a job for captain hindsight!

 

[Londo_Jowo]

He is clearly arguing that some regulations make it LESS safe. His entire argument was based on working as safely as possible. How did you miss that? How did this rate a "Wow, just wow" on your meter? Also I'm not sure throwing his accident in his face to try and win an internet argument was the least dickish thing you could have done.


This looks like a job for captain hindsight!

Maybe I've seen too many people get hurt over the years from not taking the time to do the job safely or properly plan/lay out the job. I've worked (occasionally now) in refineries/chemical plants/company shops throughout the world and all the incidents could have been prevented by wearing the proper safety equipment (PPE) or mitigating the hazards that can result in an injury. I'm currently working 2nd shift in a local chemical plant on an emergency repair. This plant's safety requirements for fall protection would make Darwin333 crazy, they must have double tie off no matter if they're building/disassembling the scaffolding at the ground level or above. Anyone over 6 feet off the ground must be double tied off........period. Everyone has a hazard analysis card that must be filled out at the start of the shift and adjusted as their job task changes to identify any new hazards.

 

[Dari]

More ignorant blanket statements, by an idiot.

More hit-n-run posts by Ackmed. Stay and debate instead of being a puss and running away.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

If you aren't saying this that means your metric isn't useful for determining if a job is relatively dangerous as compared to other jobs, which was your whole point to begin with.

The BLS has two metrics to evaluate the hazards of various occupations...one is based on frequency (injuries requiring medical attention beyond first aid) and the other on severity (fatalities). Both are useful in determining which jobs are relatively dangerous. The fact that cops ranked 3rd on the BLS list of hundreds and hundreds of occupations for injury frequency doesn't seem to fire off any synapses in your brain which might clue you in on the relative danger associated with this particular profession. I don't get this as I've always thought you were reasonably intelligent. Anyway, the other metric used to evaluate the hazards of various occupations is fatalities (severity). Cops don't rank as high on this particular metric compared to such occupations as loggers, commercial fishermen and roofers; however, their likelihood of being killed on the job is more than 4 times greater than the general population. Both metrics are significant when making judgments on this subject, frequency and severity are typically weighed equally to determine the most dangerous occupations. In most every source I can find on this topic, cops rank between 4 and 15 for most dangerous occupations.

4th
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...dangerous-jobs-from-fishermen-to-farmers.html

10th
http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/25/da...x_mk_0825danger_slide1_2.html?thisSpeed=20000

14th
http://www.cardozaplayer.com/article_details.php?cid=40&contentType=1&

For anyone to argue that this profession isn't particularly dangerous (especially in a densely populated urban setting like NYC) is either incredibly stupid, willfully ignorant or flat out insane. You chose.

 

[Darwin333]

Wow, just wow I can't believe you do not believe in working as safely as possible after what occurred to you when you were 16. Had that person been following proper safety precaustions on the job you would have never been hurt. There's no such thing as an accident only the failure of someone taking the proper safety precautions.

I do believe in working as safely as possible. Placing 10 trip hazards on a very busy shallow sloped roof does NOT make it safer, it makes it less safe. I have accident data to back that up my friend. On higher sloped roofs there you get more vertical height from the ridge to the eave which gets the ropes up off the roof, doesn't cause nearly the trip hazards and the potential to fall off if you fall and roll off is much greater.

Wearing them when working near the eave is understandable but unless you're working in a wheelchair your chance of falling and rolling off the roof while you're working in the middle of the roof is absolutely zero. We used to be able to use a warning line system 10' from the eave (OSHA mandates 5 but we decided 10' was safer) and you only had to be tied off when you went beyond that warning line. 0 fall accidents and average amount of trips (very very few). After OSHA changed the rules accidents went up, one trip often leads to two falls since you are tripping over a rope connected to another man. Using retractable "yo-yos" made it even worse since the line is much smaller and harder to see and very taught when someone trips on it.

Never said it was, then again I've haven't claimed that police have the most dangerous job though it can be in the wrong circumstance.

Of course, just about any job can be dangerous in the wrong circumstances.

 

[Darwin333]

He is clearly arguing that some regulations make it LESS safe. His entire argument was based on working as safely as possible. How did you miss that? How did this rate a "Wow, just wow" on your meter? Also I'm not sure throwing his accident in his face to try and win an internet argument was the least dickish thing you could have done.

He might of went a little overboard but I know his field of work so I understand his point about PPEs. When I was in the industry most of the regs made sense and none of them placed us in greater danger. That could be due to his industry having a fuckton more sway than the roofing industry or it could be that its just a much larger and more visible industry and when accidents happen they tend to get real bad real quick.

I truly understand what they are trying to attempt with the regulation but there needs to be way more leeway that allows us to work in the safest possible manner instead of the absolute black and white crap we deal with today. That and OSHA are flat out dicks sometimes, some inspectors think they MUST write a citation if they visit a jobsite.

Got a fine for a guy sitting sideways on a lull (extended reach fork lift) that was 2' deep in mud, two flat tires, (Read: completely inoperable) no keys in the ignition while he was eating his lunch. On the inspectors way off the site, having found nothing else to cite anyone on, he wrote me up for that guy eating his lunch on an inoperable machine without wearing his seat belt. You can't make that kind of shit up. I did get the fine tossed but it cost me 12 hours of my life that I ain't never getting back.

Black and white, rules say you must wear a seat belt while on the machine. Most inspectors would see the obvious, that he was not acting in an unsafe manner and had not broken the spirit of the reg, man was just looking for a decently clean place to sit and eat his damn lunch with a little shade, but per the black and white letter I got written up.

 

[fskimospy]

The BLS has two metrics to evaluate the hazards of various occupations...one is based on frequency (injuries requiring medical attention beyond first aid) and the other on severity (fatalities). Both are useful in determining which jobs are relatively dangerous. The fact that cops ranked 3rd on the BLS list of hundreds and hundreds of occupations for injury frequency doesn't same to fire off any synapses in your brain which might clue you in on the relative danger associated with this particular profession. I don't get this as I've always thought you were reasonably intelligent. Anyway, the other metric used to evaluate the hazards of various occupations is fatalities (severity). Cops don't rank as high on this particular metric compared to such occupations as loggers, commercial fishermen and roofers; however, their likelihood of being killed on the job is more than 4 times greater than the general population. Both metrics are significant when making judgments on this subject, frequency and severity are typically weighed equally to determine the most dangerous occupations. In most every source I can find on this topic, cops rank between 4 and 15 for most dangerous occupations.

4th
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...dangerous-jobs-from-fishermen-to-farmers.html

10th
http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/25/da...x_mk_0825danger_slide1_2.html?thisSpeed=20000

14th
http://www.cardozaplayer.com/article_details.php?cid=40&contentType=1&

For anyone to argue that this profession isn't particularly dangerous (especially in a densely populated urban setting like NYC) is either incredibly stupid, willfully ignorant or flat out insane. You chose.

It's interesting that you're now coming back to my methodology after desperately fighting against accepting it for... well... a lot of posts. By the way did you even bother to look at what you're linking to? Your links are the equivalent of buzzfeed articles. This is facepalm worthy.

It doesn't change the fact that my original argument was that police officers portray their job as being extraordinarily dangerous, when the actual data, such as the convenient workers comp tables you brought up and such show that there are many more dangerous professions. Since the police are arguing that their profession is particularly dangerous in order to get special leeway in their actions, the results do not bear this out.

I do not understand why you are so desperately attempting to dig your heels in simply because you mistakenly quoted only injury data many posts back.

 

[glenn1]

It's interesting that you're now coming back to my methodology after desperately fighting against accepting it for... well... a lot of posts. By the way did you even bother to look at what you're linking to? Your links are the equivalent of buzzfeed articles. This is facepalm worthy.

It doesn't change the fact that my original argument was that police officers portray their job as being extraordinarily dangerous, when the actual data, such as the convenient workers comp tables you brought up and such show that there are many more dangerous professions. Since the police are arguing that their profession is particularly dangerous in order to get special leeway in their actions, the results do not bear this out.

I do not understand why you are so desperately attempting to dig your heels in simply because you mistakenly quoted only injury data many posts back.

Even if one stipulated that the job was safe, that still doesn't change the fact that you and the mayor are basically calling cops racist thugs who go out of their way to target minorities, and those minorities in turn need to take special care in order not to get beaten. Have I missed any insults that you heaped upon them, or does that pretty much sum it up?

 

[fskimospy]

Even if one stipulated that the job was safe, that still doesn't change the fact that you and the mayor are basically calling cops racist thugs who go out of their way to target minorities, and those minorities in turn need to take special care in order not to get beaten. Have I missed any insults that you heaped upon them, or does that pretty much sum it up?

He actually said his son should take special care when interacting with the police who are there to protect him. Are you saying that young African Americans do not need to take particular care in their interactions with the police, despite clear scientific evidence that police view African Americans as more threatening?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

It's interesting that you're now coming back to my methodology after desperately fighting against accepting it for... well... a lot of posts. By the way did you even bother to look at what you're linking to? Your links are the equivalent of buzzfeed articles. This is facepalm worthy.

It doesn't change the fact that my original argument was that police officers portray their job as being extraordinarily dangerous, when the actual data, such as the convenient workers comp tables you brought up and such show that there are many more dangerous professions. Since the police are arguing that their profession is particularly dangerous in order to get special leeway in their actions, the results do not bear this out.

I do not understand why you are so desperately attempting to dig your heels in simply because you mistakenly quoted only injury data many posts back.

I'll choose for you...'willfully ignorant'. The bias is strong with you.

 

[glenn1]

He actually said his son should take special care when interacting with the police who are there to protect him. Are you saying that young African Americans do not need to take particular care in their interactions with the police, despite clear scientific evidence that police view African Americans as more threatening?

No, I think they need the same care as that would a white person of the same demographic. The problem is that many African Americans perceive that level of care as "demeaning" for them to need to perform.

But then again why am I bothering with you, considering you likely feel "stop and frisk" was some uniquely dehumanizing policy as well.

 

[fskimospy]

No, I think they need the same care as that would a white person of the same demographic. The problem is that many African Americans perceive that level of care as "demeaning" for them to need to perform.

But then again why am I bothering with you, considering you likely feel "stop and frisk" was some uniquely dehumanizing policy as well.

You are welcome to think that African Americans don't need to be more careful than whites around the police, but you're simply delusional.

Study after study shows that people implicitly associate black people with greater threat even in neutral circumstances. You might want black people to ignore both science and their personal experience to vindicate your preferred political outcome, but you will be ignored.

 

[fskimospy]

I'll choose for you...'willfully ignorant'. The bias is strong with you.

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Darwin333]

Maybe I've seen too many people get hurt over the years from not taking the time to do the job safely or properly plan/lay out the job. I've worked (occasionally now) in refineries/chemical plants/company shops throughout the world and all the incidents could have been prevented by wearing the proper safety equipment (PPE) or mitigating the hazards that can result in an injury. I'm currently working 2nd shift in a local chemical plant on an emergency repair. This plant's safety requirements for fall protection would make Darwin333 crazy, they must have double tie off no matter if they're building/disassembling the scaffolding at the ground level or above. Anyone over 6 feet off the ground must be double tied off........period. Everyone has a hazard analysis card that must be filled out at the start of the shift and adjusted as their job task changes to identify any new hazards.

Naw, I have no problems with safety rules that make sense. I assume you double tie so that when you switch ropes/lines as you move you are still tied in at all times? As I matter of fact I personally plan and write a custom safety plan for every last job that I run, two of them sometimes. One based off the prints on new construction since at the time I write it the roof hasn't been built yet and then I revise (sometimes completely) once I am able to inspect the actual roof. It allows me to get or make any custom or abnormal tie off points, plan material placement and overall job progression. I am as safety minded as they come in my industry and I have never had a serious accident on a single one of my projects, I piss my guys off sometimes but they ain't gotta like me or like what I tell them to do, they just gotta do it.

I used to roughneck and trip derricks on a drilling rig bud so I know all about what you are talking about. We had meetings before and after every 12 hour shift discussing our upcoming day, potential safety hazards and how to mitigate them and then we'd go over it all after the shift was over. Trust me, when you're roughly 100' up in the derrick leaning over the end with a rope around your waist being the only thing stopping you from taking the very quick way down, you learn to absolutely love your harness and triple check your connections.

This is the best I could find, I worked offshore (rig in the video is a puny land rig) and we had a MUCH bigger block, (that yellow thing he puts the pipe into) which means you had to lean MUCH further over damn near a 45 degree angle, used much bigger pipe and the derrick was 100' up Basically if you didn't tie into your secondary overhead yoyo and the rope breaks you better hope like hell you already latched (or haven't unlatched) the pipe and can ride that pipe down, otherwise you're dead. In that instance the rules make perfect sense and frankly I wouldn't do the job without both of those PPEs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77k-7yZZTdw

I "almost" miss it. It really sucked when you were out there but absolutely great pay, terrific food everyday, you basically get half a years worth of vacation and I wasn't responsible for dozens of families having food on their plate.

Sorry, we have gotten way off topic now.

 

[glenn1]

You are welcome to think that African Americans don't need to be more careful than whites around the police, but you're simply delusional.

Study after study shows that people implicitly associate black people with greater threat even in neutral circumstances. You might want black people to ignore both science and their personal experience to vindicate your preferred political outcome, but you will be ignored.

Why should the son of the mayor be presenting any level of threat whatsoever? Considering he and his family have their own fucking security detail what possible threat are the police to him versus his son a definite threat to a police officer who doesn't obey his son's every whim?

What next, you agree with Obama when he tells his kids about how they have to take "special care" around cops also, right after he asks the team of Secret Service agents to leave the room?

 

[Darwin333]

The BLS has two metrics to evaluate the hazards of various occupations...one is based on frequency (injuries requiring medical attention beyond first aid) and the other on severity (fatalities). Both are useful in determining which jobs are relatively dangerous. The fact that cops ranked 3rd on the BLS list of hundreds and hundreds of occupations for injury frequency doesn't same to fire off any synapses in your brain which might clue you in on the relative danger associated with this particular profession. I don't get this as I've always thought you were reasonably intelligent. Anyway, the other metric used to evaluate the hazards of various occupations is fatalities (severity). Cops don't rank as high on this particular metric compared to such occupations as loggers, commercial fishermen and roofers; however, their likelihood of being killed on the job is more than 4 times greater than the general population. Both metrics are significant when making judgments on this subject, frequency and severity are typically weighed equally to determine the most dangerous occupations. In most every source I can find on this topic, cops rank between 4 and 15 for most dangerous occupations.

4th
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...dangerous-jobs-from-fishermen-to-farmers.html

10th
http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/25/da...x_mk_0825danger_slide1_2.html?thisSpeed=20000

14th
http://www.cardozaplayer.com/article_details.php?cid=40&contentType=1&

For anyone to argue that this profession isn't particularly dangerous (especially in a densely populated urban setting like NYC) is either incredibly stupid, willfully ignorant or flat out insane. You chose.

Another way to measure is by how much those injuries cost which is a great metric to use as to the severity of the injury and the length of time the injured is out of work. A sprained ankle doesn't cost nearly as much as a broken limb. That is what workers comp calculates using the real (not guessed or made up or pulled out of their asses) numbers because they are the ones doing the paying.

Who do you trust more, the government or the free market? I'll ask again, do you think insurers cut PDs a break and lose money on them just to be nice guys? I wonder why they don't cut firefighters the same break?

 

[fskimospy]

Why should the son of the mayor be presenting any level of threat whatsoever? Considering he and his family have their own fucking security detail what possible threat are the police to him versus his son a definite threat to a police officer who doesn't obey his son's every whim?

What next, you agree with Obama when he tells his kids about how they have to take "special care" around cops also, right after he asks the team of Secret Service agents to leave the room?

Dante has been alive for a long time where he wasn't the mayor's son with a security detail. He will have a large period of his life going forward where he won't be the mayor's son with a security detail. He was not referring to his son's interactions with his own security detail, because you would have to be a moron to try and interpret it that way.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/de-blasio-details-talk-son-dealing-cops-article-1.2036870

“With Dante, very early on, we said, ‘Look, if a police officer stops you, do everything he tells you to do. Don’t move suddenly. Don’t reach for your cellphone,’” said deBlasio. “Because we knew, sadly, there’s a greater chance it might be misinterpreted if it was a young man of color.”

This is undeniably true, yet you continue to rage about the mayor of NYC saying true things because they might make the NYPD sad.

What de Blasio told his son is pretty much the same thing that basically every african-american parent tells their son for reasons that are obvious. What he told Dante is not new, or novel, or even particularly interesting. It's just standard parenting for black children for reasons that are incredibly well documented.

 

[Darwin333]

Why should the son of the mayor be presenting any level of threat whatsoever? Considering he and his family have their own fucking security detail what possible threat are the police to him versus his son a definite threat to a police officer who doesn't obey his son's every whim?

What next, you agree with Obama when he tells his kids about how they have to take "special care" around cops also, right after he asks the team of Secret Service agents to leave the room?

Seeing he was sworn in almost exactly a single year ago, maybe he had the conversation with his kid before he became the mayor? In 2012 should he have told his kid "naw don't worry about anything, I'm going to be mayor and you're going to have you're own security"?

 

[ivwshane]

Why should the son of the mayor be presenting any level of threat whatsoever? Considering he and his family have their own fucking security detail what possible threat are the police to him versus his son a definite threat to a police officer who doesn't obey his son's every whim?

What next, you agree with Obama when he tells his kids about how they have to take "special care" around cops also, right after he asks the team of Secret Service agents to leave the room?

Are you seriously this stupid? Has the mayor been the mayor with a security detail since his son was born?

Just read any number of threads here on P&N about cop on black crime and almost all of them have a post that tells them how the black person should have acted. Of course when it's pointed out that we have plenty of stories with video of black people acting properly and the interaction still escalating those same people suddenly disappear or come up with some other excuse.

You denying black peoples experience with cops is rather ignorant, especially given anecdotal evidence and studies that show their fear of cops has justification.

Just because you live in a bubble doesn't mean everyone else lives in that same bubble too!

 

[glenn1]

“With Dante, very early on, we said, ‘Look, if a police officer stops you, do everything he tells you to do. Don’t move suddenly. Don’t reach for your cellphone,’” said deBlasio. “Because we knew, sadly, there’s a greater chance it might be misinterpreted if it was a young man of color.”

What de Blasio told his son is pretty much the same thing that basically every african-american parent tells their son for reasons that are obvious. What he told Dante is not new, or novel, or even particularly interesting. It's just standard parenting for black children for reasons that are incredibly well documented.

Actually it's standard practice for any responsible parent to tell their kids exactly that for reasons that are also obvious. If blacks or you think that's somehow a special burden on them that they need to tell their kids to "do what a cop tells you" (as if white parents don't) that says more about them and you than me.