NY Target store rejects unionization

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Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
oh man if somebody wants to do a search for me be my guest. I think criag123 dropped a bunch of nebor quotes one time. He likes to kill, hes actually honest about it. Nebor?

I don't make any qualms regarding the fact that bad people need killing. That Craig post was pretty great. The best part was all the people posting below it saying they saw nothing wrong with all the quotes.

It's not like I condone senseless killing, and I value American lives more than anything. Next up are other Westerners, after that... meh. If you're from a place where life is cheap, expect to be treated as such.
 

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,452
2
0
Once the shop decides to unionzie/...... what transipres to arive at the collevitve bargain agreement?
Union: "All employees get a 20% raise"
Target: "No."
is that how it works?
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Your also happy about killing brown people so what makes you happy is pretty irrelevant in every day life.

You really shied away from acknowledging that this country is over unions. Membership has declined to the point where we can start legislating them out of existence.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Once the shop decides to unionzie/...... what transipres to arive at the collevitve bargain agreement?
Union: "All employees get a 20% raise"
Target: "No."
is that how it works?

Target: "This store is closed."
Everyone loses their job. Target opens another store elsewhere.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
You really shied away from acknowledging that this country is over unions. Membership has declined to the point where we can start legislating them out of existence.

I'm not a huge union supporter so I dont really care.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,347
4,973
136
I work in the film industry. The union stuff for all the workers is pretty crazy. Lots of weird shit can happen on a film set. So everyone is only allowed to do their own jobs. You need special training to go in small spaces. 3 people died because they went into a small space under a sound stage and suffocated. They didnt have the proper training for that environment. There is global safety training stuff on down to dumb shit like dont turn on the power if a breaker has been locked out.

Accidents happen. While the situation you mentioned would of probably ended up with savings of 3 hours you can not say that to be true in all situations.

What you are talking about is safety and doing skilled work.

Confined Space requirements are even true in Non-Union Shops as it is OSHA Safety requirement along with Lockout and Tagout procedures on breakers etc. These have Nothing to do with Union Work.

What I am talking about is moving a crate that weights 15 Lbs 2 feet so that you can paint behind it. Yes it was true of all the union shops in the shipyard. This is a lot different than not being allowed to enter a confined space due to not being certified or not being allowed to wire a house because you are not an electrician.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
22,347
4,973
136
I guess we could spend all day with various first-hand anecdotes continuing the "lazy union worker" stereotype, but the bottom line is non-union retail will continue to be a dead-end job with no benefits. Bravo Target employees! enjoy your extra 2% that would have gone to union dues.

Where is a "Union Retail Job" that is not a dead end job... I don't know of any union retail jobs. I am serious. I live in a right to work state and we have no Union Retail jobs that I know of.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
How is that clearly demonstrated?

Check your meter. ;)

(It would be "clearly demonstrated" to a rabid blind union devotee who would be forced to draw said conclusion in order to avoid cognitive dissonance in the face of said result.)
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
I've belonged to two unions in my life. One a food service union when I worked in a nursing home kitchen in high school and another when I worked briefly for UPS tossing boxes at a sorting facility. Both jobs paid barely more than minimum wage.

Unions. LOL.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
126
I've belonged to two unions in my life. One a food service union when I worked in a nursing home kitchen in high school and another when I worked briefly for UPS tossing boxes at a sorting facility. Both jobs paid barely more than minimum wage.

Unions. LOL.

See I think there is still room for trade unions but unions for the most low end labor are garbage. We have minimum wage and 40 hour work weeks already so thats really all the unions of old fought for.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Maybe the repercussions need to be the people at the tippytop taking less, building American business & economy instead of looting it...

Then why do unions collect their dues from the workers and not from "the tippytop"?
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,790
8,368
136
If the Target employees wanted a union bad enough, even to the point where they would jeporadize their chances for "favorable treatment" from management, or worse, taking the risk of losing their jobs, then obviously, management would had to have treated them badly enough to cause their employees to seek strength in numbers through the collective bargaining process. That they haven't speaks to Target being one of those companies that treat their employees well enough that their employees don't find the need to seek union representation. Surely, there are so many other factors that influenced the outcome of that situation, but after all was said and done, it looks as if Target convinced their employees that it was better for them to remain non-unionized. So let it be.

Because of all the "rights" unions fought, bled and died for, we now have federal rules and regulations that are derived from those very "rights" that unions negotiated for themselves years ago, of which every non-union worker in similar occupations enjoy and obliviously take for granted, including those at Target.

So those "rights" that unions fought for and acquired at great personal expense became rights that are federally protected......for now. The problem is that unionized workers, more so than non-unionized workers are under constant attack from big business at the federal/state/municipal levels where they exert overwhelming influence and not at the bargaining table where parity is more in evidence.

Ergo, we now have a majority of non-union workers occupying positions that were formerly traditional union protected jobs. They are enjoying "rights" that they casually take for granted because they are now being protected by the federal government.

That protection is now being pulled right out from under them as big business gains ever increasing control of the very government that's supposed to protect these non-union workers. Scott Walker eviscerating the public unions powers in his state is just another stepping stone down that road toward eliminating all unions. Along with the well-funded propaganda machine that's being run by big business and the political leaders they own, it seems inevitable. Once the unions are eliminated, their influence in the realm of setting benchmark wages and benefits for the non-union sector will be eliminated, providing big business their golden opportunity to cut wages and benefits at will in the well coordinated and organized effort that they've displayed up to this point.

So it looks as though the pendulum is swinging over to the side that favors big business, where they will, as they are ideologically programmed to, squeeze every profitable penny they can out the overworked and underpaid workers they lord over, and it will take another round of more painful than ever union organizing to swing it back the other way.

For sure, there are those companies that really do care for their employees, good AND bad, unionized or not. As well, there are companies that find themselves in the very envious position of having struck a good balance between acquiring and maintaining a strong and reliable manual labor workforce, all the while being very profitable.

But the battle will go on and on so long as one entity tries to unreasonably exploit the other rather than find common ground like so many other successful businesses have done, unionized or not.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
lol, wow, you really have no clue do you? The obvious part however, would seem that there must be a logical reason why employees of certain business's would not want any part of it. If you don't understand the reasons, you should not be having an opinion about it.

Fur the life of me I can't understand why someone in the Building Trades wouldn't want to be Union as those in the Union make more money and have much better benefits. The latter is very important as working in Construction does take a toll one ones body over the years, unlike sitting on your ass pushing papers around and surfing the Internet.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Really? So joining a union guarantees that?

Maybe you should watch 'Roger and Me' they were ALL in an union and now they are ALL unemployed... how did that happen?

Same thing with Steel workers.

And textile workers.

Wow a Limbaughtista using a MM Movie to back his argument. BizarroD:
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Yea there was. Its complete BS that you are not allowed to help someone outside your department for one.

That is NOT BS. I've personally experienced it (though not in retail, it was a similar situation. Union rules for what you could and could not do based on your job description led to some incredibly dumb situations.).
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,041
3
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That is NOT BS. I've personally experienced it (though not in retail, it was a similar situation. Union rules for what you could and could not do based on your job description led to some incredibly dumb situations.).

ok, now that multiple people have stated that this does in fact happen when unionized, i'd like to hear him name other "BS" that was spread in the film.
 

Triumph

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,031
14
81
Sigh.

1. Federal law demands that 30% of the work unit sign cards stating they want union representation. w/o that, no election takes place. Nobody is forced to do anything, other than have an election.

Wait...These people in the Target store ALREADY HAD an election. What's your problem again?

2. Free riders obtain union won benefits w/o having paid the same price as union workers in the same shop paid to obtain them for everybody in the work unit. If free riders in union shops in right to work states don't see any benefit from the union, it's simply because they refuse to open their eyes. The union will fight just as hard for them as any union member, often harder, because the union agreed to represent all the workers. They're the first to run to the union if they feel they've been unfairly treated, and the first to file suit against the union if they feel slighted.

Too bad, in this country individual rights are held in high regard. If you want a union, you have to suck up the riders.

3. If over 50% of the workforce signs cards stating they want union representation, that's prima facia evidence that they do. The notion that unions can be more coercive than employers is laughable on its face. Elections just give time for employers to do so... they already know if they're a target for unionization, and take countermeasures long before 50% of the workforce ever signs. Obtaining 50% in the face of such efforts would indicate that workers really want a union...

Which is what generally happened in the 1949-1966 timeframe, before the law was changed, under the NLRB's Joy Silk Doctrine...

What does any of this have to do with public declaration of the will to unionize? The idea that people's elective choice must be publicly declared is absolutely laughable and complete hogwash.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
That is NOT BS. I've personally experienced it (though not in retail, it was a similar situation. Union rules for what you could and could not do based on your job description led to some incredibly dumb situations.).


Watch the video; they say 1 person from department 1 can't help someone in Dept2. That is BS.

Yes the guy who changes lights probably can't help someone in makeup but the front end bagger can help someone load a tv.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Wait...These people in the Target store ALREADY HAD an election. What's your problem again?

If the NLRB finds that the election was fair, that'll close the matter. It's like an appeal to a higher court in the legal system.

Too bad, in this country individual rights are held in high regard. If you want a union, you have to suck up the riders.

Indeed. Operating a Union costs money however- grievance/ arbitration hearings, administering health and welfare trusts, maintaining or renting facilities for union meetings, so forth and so on. Think of it as a HOA, where some member/ residents don't have to pay for the services they receive.

What does any of this have to do with public declaration of the will to unionize? The idea that people's elective choice must be publicly declared is absolutely laughable and complete hogwash.

It's not what Unions want, but rather what they'll accept to become bargaining representatives. It also serves as an honesty test wrt the whole card check process. The notion that management doesn't have a fair understanding of the wishes of individual workers as the process unfolds is an illusion, anyway, and more concern trolling by management mouthpieces than anything else.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
See I think there is still room for trade unions but unions for the most low end labor are garbage. We have minimum wage and 40 hour work weeks already so thats really all the unions of old fought for.

What do you think Target employees are, other than low end labor? Stocking shelves is not exactly skilled work.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
i really doubt the union would have done jack for them.

I worked at Eagles (a supermarket) as a cashier. i was making min wage. I also had to PAY into a union. I asked other cashiers what the union did and why we were paying into it (it was like $4 a paycheck) nobody knew since they didn't do shit for us.

GF was wondering the same thing. The nurses union she paid dues for did what exactly she couldnt do on her own? Except of course have a portion of her paycheck taken without her consent. At the end of the day the union wouldnt even call her back when she had questions about change of employment. Got her for about 1000\year and they couldnt be bothered to answer a couple of questions. What a racket.
 

Macamus Prime

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2011
3,108
0
0
NYC is a pretty powerful union city.

Also, Target isn't going to suffer,... even if it did have a unionized work force. People will buy shit from them no matter what. The store will NOT suffer.

The employees however, that is another story. What is to prevent some asshole manager from abusing his/her employees? Wrongful termination, harassment, over worked and not paid properly.

Everyone hates unions, but they were created because management and owners became way too abusive.

Also, enjoy the many months of the union rat in front of that Target.