NY Target store rejects unionization

[ProfJohn]

I have NEVER seen or experienced an employee in any retail store, union or not, say "it's not my department." and leave.

That is because the union rules wouldn't be so obvious.

Instead what you would see is sales floor people refusing to run a register because they aren't cashiers. And cashiers refusing to get shopping cars because they aren't lot attendants.

Eventually everyone will only work their job and not cross over to help others because it isn't their job. This takes flexibility away from the management and customer service starts to suffer and then sales go down and profits go down with them and then the store closes.

 

[Triumph]

I actually believe in unionization but there are 3 things that they do that make themselves look stupid:
1. Things like the OP article, trying to force themselves upon someone who obviously doesn't want them.
2. Thinking that right to work is "unfair", since people shouldn't be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to join the union. After all, the union knows better than they do what is best for them.
3. The egregious distortion of reality they perform when they try to convince people that secret balloting is "bad" because it (somehow) allows the employers to badger/coerce/intimidate/bribe the employees not to unionize, tactics that union thugs would prefer to use themselves.

 

[ChunkiMunki]

I guess we could spend all day with various first-hand anecdotes continuing the "lazy union worker" stereotype, but the bottom line is non-union retail will continue to be a dead-end job with no benefits. Bravo Target employees! enjoy your extra 2% that would have gone to union dues.

 

[ProfJohn]

I guess we could spend all day with various first-hand anecdotes continuing the "lazy union worker" stereotype, but the bottom line is non-union retail will continue to be a dead-end job with no benefits. Bravo Target employees! enjoy your extra 2% that would have gone to union dues.

What kind of benefits should Target provide?

And are you going to pay extra to provide those benefits? And what about the poor people in this country who shop at Walmat because that is all they can afford. What happens to them when the cost of everything goes up 2%?

 

[charrison]

Heh. The reality in the US is that RTW keeps unions from having any power in states so afflicted.

Unions *obviously* aren't stupid with power atm, and yet the financial elite keeps driving industry into the dirt, taking more off the top than the system will support. Prime example-

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/business/economy/05simmons.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th

Not sure what that link has to do with he subject at hand.

RTW states largely dont have union with excessive power, however the same cannot be said for states that are not rtw.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

I actually believe in unionization but there are 3 things that they do that make themselves look stupid:
1. Things like the OP article, trying to force themselves upon someone who obviously doesn't want them.
2. Thinking that right to work is "unfair", since people shouldn't be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to join the union. After all, the union knows better than they do what is best for them.
3. The egregious distortion of reality they perform when they try to convince people that secret balloting is "bad" because it (somehow) allows the employers to badger/coerce/intimidate/bribe the employees not to unionize, tactics that union thugs would prefer to use themselves.

^
this guy gets it.

#3 is especially hypocritical of them.

 

[theeedude]

Target shouldn't provide any benefits. Employer paid healthcare is a concept whose time has long passed. Even those employers are open about this. Healthcare is a benefit that should be provided by the government.

 

[Jhhnn]

That is because the union rules wouldn't be so obvious.

Instead what you would see is sales floor people refusing to run a register because they aren't cashiers. And cashiers refusing to get shopping cars because they aren't lot attendants.

Eventually everyone will only work their job and not cross over to help others because it isn't their job. This takes flexibility away from the management and customer service starts to suffer and then sales go down and profits go down with them and then the store closes.

Hogwash. My own union contract specifies that I will perform "other duties as assigned" which I have many, many times. The only caveat is that workers of lower pay grades must be paid at the higher rate if performing duties of a higher pay grade. At top rate, I'll do whatever they tell me to do, gladly.

Multi-union shops are another matter entirely, but that's not at issue wrt Target.

Floor people refusing to run a register? Hell, they haven't been trained to run a modern register, and are paid less for that reason, yet would still be held accountable for any mistakes. Cashiers can't refuse to collect carts because they're paid at a higher rate than lot attendants. Your union rep won't back you up if you refuse to work, but he will if you demand to be paid at the rate agreed upon for work actually performed.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

I guess we could spend all day with various first-hand anecdotes continuing the "lazy union worker" stereotype, but the bottom line is non-union retail will continue to be a dead-end job with no benefits. Bravo Target employees! enjoy your extra 2% that would have gone to union dues.

i'm confused. isn't that essentially what a retail job is?
i've never met someone who aspires to be in retail for the rest of their life.

it's a summer/seasonal job. it's a HS kid's job, or for retirees who can't stand being trapped at home.
at best, it's a stepping stone to get into a managerial position.

 

[ProfJohn]

Floor people refusing to run a register? Hell, they haven't been trained to run a modern register, and are paid less for that reason, yet would still be held accountable for any mistakes. Cashiers can't refuse to collect carts because they're paid at a higher rate than lot attendants. Your union rep won't back you up if you refuse to work, but he will if you demand to be paid at the rate agreed upon for work actually performed.

I take it you have never worked at Target either.

Everyone runs a register. And I mean EVERYONE including the store manager.

Also, many union contracts prevent people from doing jobs above or below their pay rate in order to protect those jobs.

A guy making $15 an hour on an assembly line can't sweep the floor because it might take the work away from a guy making $12 an hour and they can't change a light bulb because it might take work from the guy making $20 an hour.

One of the biggest functions of a union is protecting union jobs and that is how they do it.


BTW what type of job/union work do you do?

 

[Jhhnn]

I actually believe in unionization but there are 3 things that they do that make themselves look stupid:
1. Things like the OP article, trying to force themselves upon someone who obviously doesn't want them.
2. Thinking that right to work is "unfair", since people shouldn't be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to join the union. After all, the union knows better than they do what is best for them.
3. The egregious distortion of reality they perform when they try to convince people that secret balloting is "bad" because it (somehow) allows the employers to badger/coerce/intimidate/bribe the employees not to unionize, tactics that union thugs would prefer to use themselves.

Sigh.

1. Federal law demands that 30% of the work unit sign cards stating they want union representation. w/o that, no election takes place. Nobody is forced to do anything, other than have an election.

2. Free riders obtain union won benefits w/o having paid the same price as union workers in the same shop paid to obtain them for everybody in the work unit. If free riders in union shops in right to work states don't see any benefit from the union, it's simply because they refuse to open their eyes. The union will fight just as hard for them as any union member, often harder, because the union agreed to represent all the workers. They're the first to run to the union if they feel they've been unfairly treated, and the first to file suit against the union if they feel slighted.

3. If over 50% of the workforce signs cards stating they want union representation, that's prima facia evidence that they do. The notion that unions can be more coercive than employers is laughable on its face. Elections just give time for employers to do so... they already know if they're a target for unionization, and take countermeasures long before 50% of the workforce ever signs. Obtaining 50% in the face of such efforts would indicate that workers really want a union...

Which is what generally happened in the 1949-1966 timeframe, before the law was changed, under the NLRB's Joy Silk Doctrine...

 

[trenchfoot]

Hogwash. My own union contract specifies that I will perform "other duties as assigned" which I have many, many times. The only caveat is that workers of lower pay grades must be paid at the higher rate if performing duties of a higher pay grade. At top rate, I'll do whatever they tell me to do, gladly.

Multi-union shops are another matter entirely, but that's not at issue wrt Target.

Floor people refusing to run a register? Hell, they haven't been trained to run a modern register, and are paid less for that reason, yet would still be held accountable for any mistakes. Cashiers can't refuse to collect carts because they're paid at a higher rate than lot attendants. Your union rep won't back you up if you refuse to work, but he will if you demand to be paid at the rate agreed upon for work actually performed.

The union negotiated agreement that I work under also has a clause that reads "perform duties as specified in the job description and all related work". As well, there is language in the contract that states if an employee is required to do work that is of a lower rate than what he/she regularly earns, that employee will be paid the higher wage. If an employee is required to temporarily work at a higher rated position, the employee will earn the higher rate, under the auspices of the "equal pay for equal work" rule.

This is common language in most service industry and labor union contracts.

 

[ProfJohn]

3. If over 50% of the workforce signs cards stating they want union representation, that's prima facia evidence that they do. The notion that unions can be more coercive than employers is laughable on its face. Elections just give time for employers to do so... they already know if they're a target for unionization, and take countermeasures long before 50% of the workforce ever signs. Obtaining 50% in the face of such efforts would indicate that workers really want a union...

Unions have a history of coercing people into signing union cards.

They bother them in the parking lot, show up at their homes, and dozens of other tactics.

And they have a history of hiding what people are actually signing up for "hey just fill out this piece of paper so we can keep you up to date on what we are doing" etc etc.

And once you sign an union card it is nearly impossible to 'un-sign' so that makes it easier for them to get to the magic number for a vote. Bug enough people and fool them into signing and once you get to the magic number TADA!!!

The whole process is nasty and ugly, on both sides, I actually feel for the people working at that Target. The last few weeks have probably been hell for them.

 

[ProfJohn]

BTW a majority of workers at this Target signed the cards and yet the vote still went 137-87 against the union.

aka people signed the cards and changed their minds or signed the cards just to get the union people to stop bothering them.

 

[nonlnear]

BTW a majority of workers at this Target signed the cards and yet the vote still went 137-87 against the union.

aka people signed the cards and changed their minds or signed the cards just to get the union people to stop bothering them.

No. That clearly demonstrates that the secret ballot is more vulnerable to intimidation and coercion.

 

[Jhhnn]

I take it you have never worked at Target either.

Everyone runs a register. And I mean EVERYONE including the store manager.

Also, many union contracts prevent people from doing jobs above or below their pay rate in order to protect those jobs.

A guy making $15 an hour on an assembly line can't sweep the floor because it might take the work away from a guy making $12 an hour and they can't change a light bulb because it might take work from the guy making $20 an hour.

One of the biggest functions of a union is protecting union jobs and that is how they do it.


BTW what type of job/union work do you do?

Obviously the store manager can run a register & should be able to fill in as required. The guys who unload the trucks & sweep the floors are trained to run registers? really? and they're paid just as little when they do, denied advancement & pay even though trained to do more?

As far as the rest of it goes, you haven't worked in many union shops, obviously. There's no recourse for doing lower skill work at higher skill pay, at least within the same department. The union can point out that you're wasting resources, but that's about it. The part employers don't like is having to pay lower skill help higher wages when doing what's defined as higher skill work. If they want the damned light bulbs changed bad enough, they'll pay the janitor electrician's wages for the day, quit whining, move on.

U3 stands steady at 9%, U6 at 17%, wages are stagnant, corporate profits are at record levels, and you want to defend employers who won't hire enough help to do the work, or pay proper wages for work actually performed? Join the offshoring threat chorus when they're called on it?

If that's really the way that the middle class thinks, then they richly deserve the buttfvck they're receiving...

 

[Throckmorton]

hell i work in outdoor construction and even none of us want a union.

You don't want to make more money?

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

why do people think you can raise wages without repercussion?

 

[Jhhnn]

why do people think you can raise wages without repercussion?

Maybe the repercussions need to be the people at the tippytop taking less, building American business & economy instead of looting it...

 

[Nebor]

Target shouldn't provide any benefits. Employer paid healthcare is a concept whose time has long passed. Even those employers are open about this. Healthcare is a benefit that should be provided by the government.

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my healthcare provided from a doctor.

 

[Nebor]

Geez, this thread makes me happy that big business and government have successfully crushed private unions, and public unions are next.

 

[JSt0rm]

Most producers decry Hollywood unionization as being totally inefficient and sometimes lethal to production. It's essentially all the little people trying to get paid like the big fish just because they know the money's there. Sorry, but operating a boom mike or cue cards isn't a $100k a year job.

I never said it was. Well a good boom operator is probably worth 100k a year. Do you realize how much money adr costs? If the boom op is good that shit is mostly perfect.

 

[JSt0rm]

Geez, this thread makes me happy that big business and government have successfully crushed private unions, and public unions are next.

Your also happy about killing brown people so what makes you happy is pretty irrelevant in every day life.

 

[Infohawk]

Your (sic) also happy about killing brown people so what makes you happy is pretty irrelevant in every day life.

Evidence?

 

[JSt0rm]

Evidence?

oh man if somebody wants to do a search for me be my guest. I think criag123 dropped a bunch of nebor quotes one time. He likes to kill, hes actually honest about it. Nebor?