Nvidia: Not Enough Money in a PS4 GPU for us to bother

[NTMBK]

The only sour grapes I understand are posters upset over realization that Nvidia want's no part in AMD's big win/ sarcastic.
Next years PC games are still going to be run via DX11. The consoles are sold and the majority of profit, made or lost is on Sony and Microsoft. Neither console will have a sticker or box point, powered by AMD. 96% of console gamers won't know or care what's in them. Ouch. By the way, most tablet/phone owners do not care what cpu/gpu combination is in those either.:thumbsup:

I imagined those ATi stickers on my Gamecube and Wii then?

And you really think that having developers design algorithms to run well on an APU isn't going to help AMD? EDIT: And also help Intel's integrated graphics efforts, too.

 

[thilanliyan]

EDIT: Pre-emptive Lonbjerg block - yes there is only one library, yes PhysX is great, yes you look good in red high heels, no I'm not saying death to PhysX, yes I know PhysX is in PS4, no I don't think it will be GPU-accel, umm no I won't document my opinion, bout covers it...I hope. Haha.

Lol

 

[ShintaiDK]

Anyway ''not enough money blah blah ....'' is a case of ''Fox and Grapes'' plain and simple.Nvidia,like any business wants profits even if they are 'slim' according to the Armchair analysts.

Thats not true. A good example is Intel.

 

[NIGELG]

Thats not true. A good example is Intel.

Good point...but are you saying that Nvidia is on the same level as Intel??

 

[ShintaiDK]

Good point...but are you saying that Nvidia is on the same level as Intel??

Everyone is. AMD is just in a situation were they cant say no to scraps.

There are 2 factors in it. ROI and resources.

You cant just hire 250 new people to make a console GPU for a year and then fire them again. And you need the money invested back in a timely fashion. It doesnt help you regain the money over 5 years, if you need the money back in 2 to avoid interrupting the next project.

 

[Will Robinson]

LOL @ anyone attempting a rational discussion with Shintel about something from AMD.

Think Rollo(NVDA) but dumber because at least Rollo got paid.

 

[NTMBK]

LOL @ anyone attempting a rational discussion with Shintel about something from AMD.

Think Rollo(NVDA) but dumber because at least Rollo got paid.

No need for personal attacks. Regardless of whether you agree with his personal stance, ShintaiDK tends to make interesting arguments and actually tackle the points his opponents make.

 

[Xarick]

I imagined those ATi stickers on my Gamecube and Wii then?

And you really think that having developers design algorithms to run well on an APU isn't going to help AMD? EDIT: And also help Intel's integrated graphics efforts, too.

Yes, this is very true.. and both those systems were very successful and didn't help ATI a damn bit.

 

[ElFenix]

I think it makes sense, Nvidia has a lot of wafer needs now, adding in a high volume low profit chip without any extra wafers doesn't really add up well for them.

Don't we assume already that they're wafer supply constrained?

For this sort of project nvidia wouldnt be sourcing the wafers from their own allotment

 

[sontin]

Good point...but are you saying that Nvidia is on the same level as Intel??

nVidia has $3,8 in cash and has with Tegra a huge new business which needs all of their ressources besides the GPU business.

If they see no real purpose of the design outside of the PS4 then it makes no sense for them to go after the deal.

Project Shield for example is using the Tegra chips (they exist because of Smartphones and Tablets) and their cloud technology.

 

[Bobisuruncle54]

Just marketing spiel to save face more like.

Sony didn't want to use a CPU similar to the Cell, and instead go with a traditional design that cost less and had more practical performance benefits.

Nvidia has limited options when it comes to CPUs. Obviously they can't make their own so the only options are to pair up with Intel or ARM. Now it's obvious that Nvidia would prefer to avoid any teaming with Intel and attempt to push a derivative of its Tegra platform using ARM chips. The problem being that they simply aren't powerful enough to run desktop level software, and wouldn't offer enough performance. So in reality all what Nvidia would have been able to offer was a Tegra 4 on steroids, with a bigger GPU and up to 8 ARM cores thrown into the mix.

Definitely not competitive with AMD's offerings.

 

[Despoiler]

This isn't the first time NVIDIA has lost a big contract and tried to paint its rationalization as the superior. http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...ion-pc-order-over-linux-drivers-and-nres.aspx

 

[ShintaiDK]

This isn't the first time NVIDIA has lost a big contract and tried to paint its rationalization as the superior. http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...ion-pc-order-over-linux-drivers-and-nres.aspx

Did any documentation or anything else come out of that? Sofar I know it was purely a rumour that got baked on.

 

[Dribble]

It is no coincidence that the release of xbox coincided with the famous FX series, and the release of the PS3 with the equally famous 2900XT. Custom chips for consoles take plenty of manpower to get right and that leaves other parts of the company lacking.

For AMD the chips were just variants of what they were working on anyway so a good fit as it's the sort of thing AMD want to be making. For nvidia who are clearly more interested in portable/gpu compute/etc this just doesn't match up with what they are aiming to do right now - unless Sony/MS offered a lot of money.

This isn't the first time NVIDIA has lost a big contract and tried to paint its rationalization as the superior. http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...ion-pc-order-over-linux-drivers-and-nres.aspx

The ability to say no when the deal isn't good enough is generally considered a good thing.

 

[notty22]

Nvidia declined that contract. Have you ever seen the news reports where China gets involved with large monetary contracts and after the first year or two. They clone the technology and break the contract. And guess what, they always come out unscathed.
A recent one, was windmills and the proprietary tech a company offered.

China Corporate Espionage Boom Knocks Wind Out of U.S.

In November, 14 U.S. intelligence agencies issued a report describing a far-reaching industrial espionage campaign by Chinese spy agencies. This campaign has been in the works for years and targets a swath of industries: biotechnology, telecommunications, and nanotechnology, as well as clean energy. One U.S. metallurgical company lost technology to China’s hackers that cost $1 billion and 20 years to develop, U.S.

 

[Genx87]

Just marketing spiel to save face more like.

Sony didn't want to use a CPU similar to the Cell, and instead go with a traditional design that cost less and had more practical performance benefits.

Nvidia has limited options when it comes to CPUs. Obviously they can't make their own so the only options are to pair up with Intel or ARM. Now it's obvious that Nvidia would prefer to avoid any teaming with Intel and attempt to push a derivative of its Tegra platform using ARM chips. The problem being that they simply aren't powerful enough to run desktop level software, and wouldn't offer enough performance. So in reality all what Nvidia would have been able to offer was a Tegra 4 on steroids, with a bigger GPU and up to 8 ARM cores thrown into the mix.

Definitely not competitive with AMD's offerings.

Nvidia could had offered a GPU design based around another CPU. Tegra 4 wouldnt have been in the PS4. It would had been a derivative of their desktop GPU paired with another CPU from AMD, Intel, or PowerPC.

Nvidia was in the original xBox and MS tried to weasel their way out of the defined contract due to lower than expected sales. Nvidia was in the PS3. Neither I would say contributed much to their bottom line. Nvidia has so many projects they like to fund. They will pick and choose which ones meet their defined margins. It sounds like it was obvious from the beginning that Sony was going to require margins much lower than Nvidia was willing to deliver. So it makes sense to put resources into other projects that would deliver a higher ROI.

 

[thilanliyan]

Nvidia could had offered a GPU design based around another CPU. Tegra 4 wouldnt have been in the PS4. It would had been a derivative of their desktop GPU paired with another CPU from AMD, Intel, or PowerPC.

Nvidia was in the original xBox and MS tried to weasel their way out of the defined contract due to lower than expected sales. Nvidia was in the PS3. Neither I would say contributed much to their bottom line. Nvidia has so many projects they like to fund. They will pick and choose which ones meet their defined margins. It sounds like it was obvious from the beginning that Sony was going to require margins much lower than Nvidia was willing to deliver. So it makes sense to put resources into other projects that would deliver a higher ROI.

I fully agree with your 2nd paragraph, but not your 1st paragraph. Sony/MS may have wanted the full CPU/GPU on one package from one company (which would decrease manufacturing complexity and costs), which rules out nVidia as they don't have a CPU powerful enough. Not saying this is THE reason, but I think if they were in the running initially, the lack of the CPU could have ruled them out.

 

[wand3r3r]

I wonder if the cpu/gpu will be built to scale so they can add more power in a couple years vs. the extremely long dragged out life of the current consoles? If they are basically using existing PC technology they (should/might) be able to update more regularly?

 

[DaveSimmons]

I wonder if the cpu/gpu will be built to scale so they can add more power in a couple years vs. the extremely long dragged out life of the current consoles? If they are basically using existing PC technology they (should/might) be able to update more regularly?

That probably won't happen. Up until now console games have been written for the specific, unchanging hardware performance.

As MS has shrunk and re-shrunk the 360 CPU+GPU they've jumped through hoops to keep the performance the same.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I wonder if the cpu/gpu will be built to scale so they can add more power in a couple years vs. the extremely long dragged out life of the current consoles? If they are basically using existing PC technology they (should/might) be able to update more regularly?

Thats not gonna happen. It would also break the point of being a console.

Only shrinks to save cost/power.

 

[Ferzerp]

Thats not gonna happen. It would also break the point of being a console.

Only shrinks to save cost/power.

This

The only times that consoles were really extended in processing capability were the old cartridge systems when the extra hardware could actually be included in the game cartridge.

 

[Vesku]

Don't think we will see hardware speed changes within PS4 & X720, they might take advantage of process advantages to save power or go slimmer though just like with this gen.

What we might see is the time between console generations shrink back a bit under PC gaming pressure. It's been ~7 years with 360 and PS3. If they stay tied to x86 APUs then the design and R&D cost barrier will be low for pushing out a new gen, still wouldn't bet on anything shorter than ~4 year cycle.

 

[wand3r3r]

Ok, points taken.

I should go back and re-read how they are licensing it.

I was merely thinking if they would just increase e.g. stream processors and other architectural things because the same code would/should run on the increased specs.

Graphics processor AMD Radeon HD 7850 2GB, 900MHz
Pipeline 1,024 stream processors, 32 ROPs
Memory 1GB GDDR5, 1.2GHz (4.8GHz effective)
Bandwidth 153.6GB/sec, 256-bit interface
Compatibility DirectX 11.1, OpenGL 4.1

Supposing it's around the 7850 specs or was it 7870 or so, what if they could increase the processors say to 1536 and potentially increase the memory etc. and have a "PS4 ultimate" or something. Business wise it would make sense, but naturally it is not so straightforward.

Previously this wasn't as likely because of the custom architectures, but if these are basically COTS components then a process shrink would offer the potential. Alternatively if they simply introduce a PS5 in a shorter time span, the X86 and GPU code would be easy to maintain as well as allow the new features etc.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

It's closer to the stock 7850 than the 7870.

Consoles are just becoming crappy versions of gaming PCs with proprietary software like the Kindle.

 

[DooKey]

It's closer to the stock 7850 than the 7870.

Consoles are just becoming crappy versions of gaming PCs with proprietary software like the Kindle.

Consoles are the "crack" of the gaming crowd. Good enough to get them high, but not as good as pure cocaine would be. Console = crack PC = Cocaine